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lisa rolley
RedRushes Scaling issue when making 1920x1080
on May 18, 2009 at 8:08:04 pm

Hello

I posted last week about some RED workflow questions and some specific issues have now come up when resizing in RedRushes to 1920x1080 ProRes.

The problem is that there is black at the very top and bottom of the resulting qt render - it does not take up the whole 1080 height. Is this normal - shouldn't the entire 1920x1080 be used?

I followed David's specific settings which were as follows:


RENDER; HALF RES HIGH
TC: EXTERNAL
LOOK SOURCE: CAMERA
COLOR SPACE: REDSPACE
GAMMA: REC 709

RESIZE:
CROP: DO NOTHING
SCALE CHECK CHECKBOX 1920x1080
FIT: WIDTH
RESAMPLE: CATMULROM

OUTPUT
QTMOVIE
APPLE PORRES (HQ)
REEL ID FULL NAME
DO NOT CHECK BURNIN


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lisa rolley
Re: RedRushes Scaling issue when making 1920x1080
on May 18, 2009 at 8:32:32 pm


UPDATE:

I tried selecting stretch instead and obviosuly that just stretched the face of the character in the footage so I just finished checking out a render that i used the Height setting with and it seems to be the answer??

It fits the whole frame of the 1920x1080 ProRes render but i just want to make sure you guys think this is ok and if so why I ended up having to do this - is this only necessary with 4k RED stuff - will the 2k work fine when set to width? All these small details - like colorspace & gamma have totally bit me in the rear end!

thanks

Lisa


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Uli Plank
Re: RedRushes Scaling issue when making 1920x1080
on May 18, 2009 at 9:03:49 pm

If your camerafolks shot in 2:1 it can't logically fit into 16:9! They should have shot 4K HD, which is exactly twice the number of pixels in HD.
You can choose "fit height" and the sides will get cropped.

Hope this helps,

Uli

Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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lisa rolley
Re: RedRushes Scaling issue when making 1920x1080
on May 18, 2009 at 9:21:06 pm

Hey Uli

thanks for the fast response - i wish i knew how these guys shot this stuff!!

I am going with the height setting but now i want to take a closer look at each of these shots to make sure the color & gamma space are all the same - as well the resolution.

best

Lisa


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lisa rolley
Re: RedRushes Scaling issue when making 1920x1080
on May 18, 2009 at 9:28:42 pm

Hey Uli,

Another quick question is just about RedAlert and hitting the metadata button at the top - it was suggested to me in last week's post that i use this to find out what the color space & gamma settings are.

I just want to make sure i am looking at the correct place for that answer - after hitting metadata button i am looking to the left at the color space and gamma options and it stays on redspace so i assume thats what the footage was shot in - if this is incorrect please let me know - or if anyone else knows RedAlert please advise.

Thanks

Lisa


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Uli Plank
Re: RedRushes Scaling issue when making 1920x1080
on May 19, 2009 at 9:12:34 am

Yes, that's the information. But metadata can be changed at any time without quality loss to your liking – since it's just data telling a program how to display the footage.

Original size and speed will be shown at the top of the RA window too.

Regards,

Uli

Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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Noah Kadner
Re: RedRushes Scaling issue when making 1920x1080
on May 20, 2009 at 3:12:36 am

What's the pixel resolution of the F proxies- that will determine if it's 2:1 or HD shot footage.

Noah

Check out my new RED Blog. Unlock the secrets of the DVX100, HVX200 and Apple Color.
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lisa rolley
Re: RedRushes Scaling issue when making 1920x1080
on May 21, 2009 at 8:55:10 pm

hello

it is 4096x2048

thoughts?

Lisa


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Uli Plank
Re: RedRushes Scaling issue when making 1920x1080
on May 21, 2009 at 9:08:26 pm

Well, that's 2:1. So you can:

- letterbox
- crop
- squeeze

What do you want?

Regards,

Uli

Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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lisa rolley
Re: RedRushes Scaling issue when making 1920x1080
on May 21, 2009 at 9:38:41 pm

Hey Uli and friends,

So i ended up making them 1920x1080 24 fps in redRushes - but instead of using "Fit to Width" as David suggested, I ended up using fit to "Height" because otherwise the renders did not fill the full 1080 top to bottom.

So next taking Gary's advise i conformed all the ProRes renders in Cinema Tools making them 23.98 so that my blackmagic card could play back on the reference monitor and then began cutting.

Now picture is almost locked and the Director is asking to start seeing some color grades so I was going to bring this into COLOR but I am just a little curious as to whether or not i will be able to send this to COLOR and have it use the .R3D RED raw original files even though i did a 23.98 conform.

Any thoughts on this? I know some of you guys suggested just grading the proRes clips in color and do a back and forth with fcp till the client is happy with the "look" but I just want to know if it would be possible to use the r3d and if so how.

Looking forward to your advice as I am at finishing stage.

Thanks

Lisa
Thanks


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Uli Plank
Re: RedRushes Scaling issue when making 1920x1080
on May 22, 2009 at 5:16:34 am

I'd have suggested fit to height as well, IMHO some cropping of 2:1 at the sides looks better than those small letterbox bars.

Regarding Color: if your result is going to HDTV or Blu-Ray, save yourself the headache and grade in ProRes. Since you needed to re-conform from 24 fps, I doubt it will work with the original files.

Regards,

Uli

Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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Steve Sherrick
Re: RedRushes Scaling issue when making 1920x1080
on May 22, 2009 at 7:03:59 am

Lisa, sorry to hear about your troubles on this project.

It does kind of highlight the need to have post involved as early as possible with the production. These things can be discussed and worked out ahead of time. You are having to go through a lot of hoops to get stuff done, when a simple meeting would certainly have saved a lot of time. But, maybe it was not in your control.

If going for a 16x9 HD finish, like Uli I suggest shooting 4kHD. Shooting 2:1 is useful if you want that type of aspect ratio for films, or perhaps you're shooting to 8GB CF cards and it's more efficient to shoot 2:1 and use 16x9 frame guides or perhaps you need specific frame rates that you can only get in that format.

Hopefully everything works out for you.

Steve Sherrick




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David Battistella
Re: RedRushes Scaling issue when making 1920x1080
on May 22, 2009 at 2:32:56 pm

Steve,

I am with you on this.

Too many people are having to take a crash course on working with RED and they think it is a complicated beast when it really is not.

It comes down to PRE planning and going with the plan.

There are so many options and so many opinions on how to treat this footage. Personally, I think that within a short time we will not even have to transcode footage at all. You'll cut the proxie file, ship it to color, grade a 10 bit r3d and export WHATEVER you need.

The transcoding adds a step now.

Lisa,

You have two options.

1. Grade the prorez and output.
2. Relink to the R3d in Color, grade that and export.

BOTH OF THESE OPTIONS ARE LAID OUT IN PERFECT DETAIL HERE:

http://www.red.com/support

Download and READ the FCS white paper. It's step by step.

As far as quality goes. That is entirely subjective and entirely up to you.

Someone is bound to pipe in and say that you need monkey extract to extract the 10 bit DPX files in RGB log to exploit the camera's FULL DYNAMIC RANGE...

it can go on and on from here.

It's your movie. You decide.

David




Peace
David


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lisa rolley
Re: RedRushes Scaling issue when making 1920x1080
on May 26, 2009 at 2:35:21 pm

Hey Steve thanks for the reply - i appreciate your kind words and advise : )

This project was not in my control at all i just got the media in post to work with and wasn to involved in any way before that.

I will be sure to tell this DP to shoot 4KHD next time as u suggest

To answer some of what David said in his follow up to your response I will just restate the fact that I had not opportunity to prep for this - i was handed a drive and that's it...I began by reading the FCS whitepaper on RED and looking for answers on the cow and the reduser site...because there were so many routes and softare packages to use it began to get only more confusing.

I agree David that it shpoudl just be as easy as "cut the proxie file, ship it to color, grade a 10 bit r3d and export WHATEVER you need." last time i checked though Color cannot do 4k> not sure if that is still the case but yes i agree that it should be less complicated.

"Relink to the R3d in Color, grade that and export"

My big concern about the R3d route is the fact that the footage was originally 24fps and then i conformed it to 23.98 - any thoughts on this? I am thinking to just use the prores clips and hope Color can bring out the beauty : )

thanks

lisa



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lisa rolley
Re: RedRushes Scaling issue when making 1920x1080
on May 26, 2009 at 2:25:42 pm

Hey Uli

so had i not changed it to 23.98 the xml back to r3d for color would have worked right?? It sounds like you are saying it could be a potential drama trying to do this now that the media has been conformed to 23.98.

thanks

Lisa


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David Battistella
Re: RedRushes Scaling issue when making 1920x1080
on May 26, 2009 at 4:01:03 pm

Lisa,

My advice is to get a decent flat one light grade on the prores and stick with that all the way through. Chalk this one up to education.

COntact me off list by clicking on my head in the top of the forum) and we can set up a time for a quick chat which might save you A TON of time and stress.

David




Peace
David


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lisa rolley
Re: RedRushes Scaling issue when making 1920x1080
on May 26, 2009 at 4:37:56 pm

ok will do!
btw what is a one light pass?
lisa


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David Battistella
Re: RedRushes Scaling issue when making 1920x1080
on May 26, 2009 at 4:53:23 pm


A one light or best light is a film term where you would make the dailies from the film with the best light for the overall transfer. THis light would be applied to the whole transfer so some shots could be a bit bright or a bit dark depending how they were exposed.

You can carry this over to RED by NOT TWEAKING the camera metadata for the initial render of the material. You can balance these shots when you do a final color correction pass.

One Lights would be cheaper than tweaking every single shot on the roll.

David



Peace
David


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lisa rolley
Re: RedRushes Scaling issue when making 1920x1080
on May 26, 2009 at 5:40:13 pm

Hey David,

Thanks for explaining this process for me - very informative.

Yeah kinda wish i did a first light with RedCine or RedAlert before transcoding the footage to 1920x1080 in ClipFinder and then doing a conform to 23.98 in Cinema Tools...but alas it sounds like what u are saying is I should be fine as long as i kept the metadata on target with how it was shot - I can just create the look for this :30 spot in COLOR - now the fun begins : )

Just out of curiosity - since you have been keeping up with this whole process if i were to have done an initial grade in RedAlert could i have then created the same 1920x1080 23.98fps clips to edit with and in theory still do that and just replace the clips i am using now and just reconnect to the new clips??

ANyways thanks David you rock sir - i will begin my CC now in Color but if you have any thoughts beyond this let me know...i will search for your contact now as u suggested.
cheers
Lisa


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Uli Plank
Re: RedRushes Scaling issue when making 1920x1080
on May 27, 2009 at 7:57:58 am

The whole idea behind doing a first light in RA/RR is preserving the best possible latitude in ProRes, which is 10 bit. So you'd not need to replace the ProRes footage with native R3D for Color, just work with ProRes. This would get you around the whole issue with 24 vs. 23.98 fps.

Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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lisa rolley
Re: RedRushes Scaling issue when making 1920x1080
on May 27, 2009 at 2:19:17 pm

Hey Uli

So in that i DID NOT do a first light in RA or RR but just left it in its native redspace my question for you is whether its ok that I am CCing now in Color with a completely untouched ProRes file?
thanks
Lisa


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Uli Plank
Re: RedRushes Scaling issue when making 1920x1080
on May 27, 2009 at 9:03:08 pm

If the footage is well exposed and you don't need massive changes of the look, you should be OK.




Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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