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RedRushes color shift compaired to (f) QT qrapped originals?

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lisa rolley
RedRushes color shift compaired to (f) QT qrapped originals?
on May 15, 2009 at 4:35:33 pm

Hey David, Gary, Uli & friends

Huge issue with RedRushes - comparing the renders out of RedRushes to the QT wrapped originals (f) there is a big big difference in the appearance of the exact same frames / footage.

That is: the originals when viewed down in QT as F H M or P wrapped qt files look stunning and beautiful BUT the renders out of RedRushes looked dark and bland - nowhere near as good - I am using the settings David & Gary suggested I use in my previous long-winded clusterf*ck post.

Please tell why this is happening and how to "fix" this issue - I left all this render over night because it was taking SO long and now i need to be editing but this looks terrible compared to the originals. I also read some other posts about grading the R3D originals in color and I want to know if this will be possible in the end or if i will be stuck using these proRes HQ renders.

Thanks

lisa

Lisa


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Uli Plank
Re: RedRushes color shift compaired to (f) QT qrapped originals?
on May 16, 2009 at 12:12:31 pm

I get excellent quality out of REDrushes or Clipfinder, but I teach that stuff at university level. BTW, how are you monitoring when you talk about insufficient quality?

You can use the R3Ds in Color and just not care about the color in other programs. It was one of the workflows I suggested, but someone considered it too complicated ;-)

In that case just use the QuickTimes for editing, repair the XMLs with Colorfixer (by H-G Daun) and happily grade in Color.

Regards,

Uli

Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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lisa rolley
Re: RedRushes color shift compaired to (f) QT qrapped originals?
on May 17, 2009 at 4:20:15 pm

Hey Uli,

So to answer your first question - i am comparing the original (F) qt file with the ProRes Renders out of RedRushed all in QT on one of my 23" cinema displays - i have not bothered bringing anything into fcp yet to look at on a broadcast monitor because i figured if its already much worse in qt compaired to originals it wont matter to then bring into fcp to also look...

This R3d workflow you suggested earlier that you re-address - i am curious about this workflow and dot not think it is too complicated i just dont think i totally understood the steps from beginning to end - if you could briefly re-cap from start to finish i will give that a go.

If i just use one of the pre-qt wrapped qt's to edit with dont i have to reduce them to a format fcp likes (i.e 1920x1080) or this not what u are saying??

Regards,

Lisa


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gary adcock
Re: RedRushes color shift compaired to (f) QT qrapped originals?
on May 16, 2009 at 2:26:30 pm

[lisa rolley] "That is: the originals when viewed down in QT as F H M or P wrapped qt files look stunning and beautiful BUT the renders out of RedRushes looked dark and bland - nowhere near as good - I am using the settings David & Gary suggested I use in my previous long-winded clusterf*ck post. "


from the sound of it you did not set the RSX file for the conversion? This is the RED metadata flag that determines what / how to set color for your shot when viewed or converted.




gary adcock
Studio37
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David Battistella
Re: RedRushes color shift compaired to (f) QT qrapped originals?
on May 17, 2009 at 3:38:56 am



Yes.

The render settings for GAMMA and COLOR space have to match what the camera shoots.

I always leave to to REDSPACE and REDSPACE because that is how I have it set up in Camera.

To determine what the Color Space and Gamma space is, OPEN the R3d in RED ALERT and click on METADATA. This will tell you how the footage was shot.

Or just do as Gary says and load the file instead of setting those parameters manually.

A little tip to remember if you are doing the finish. THe RED does not perform any sharpening in Camera. This means that you the final image benefits from some sharpening.

Are you using QT to compare or FCP. in FCP you are only viewing one field.

David






Peace


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lisa rolley
Re: RedRushes color shift compaired to (f) QT qrapped originals?
on May 17, 2009 at 4:37:08 pm

Hello David,

I will us RedAlert to check on those settings as u suggested

Iam not sure i understand how to do what gary suggested...

In terms of the sharpening - is this not a settings for output in redAlert as well or do i have to perform some additional sharpening somewhere along the lines - if so using what?

In terms of viewing - thus far i have only looked at he qt files and my redrushes renders in qt itself and that is where i noticed a dramatic shift in quality.

Colin



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Uli Plank
Re: RedRushes color shift compaired to (f) QT qrapped originals?
on May 17, 2009 at 5:47:47 pm

Hi Lisa,

as soon as you touch any settings in RA, it will generate a .RSX file in the same folder where the RED footage is found. This .RSX file, which contains a new "look", can be used by RR or Clipfinder when transcoding files. You can apply one .RSX to a whole list of files if they are similar in the correction needed.

When using L&T, the workflow is different. Save the grade in RA, it will generate a .RLX file in it's own settings folder. This one can be used by FCP when transcoding, but a few parameters are not observed, like curves (see whitepaper for the whole list).

Plus, never judge footage on a computer monitor! Only a calibrated screen can tell you how it really looks like. QT player is notorious for not showing your files the way they are…

Hope this helps,

Uli

Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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David Battistella
Re: RedRushes color shift compaired to (f) QT qrapped originals?
on May 17, 2009 at 6:36:58 pm

[lisa rolley] "In terms of the sharpening - is this not a settings for output in redAlert as well or do i have to perform some additional sharpening somewhere along the lines - if so using what? "

I would save sharpening to the very last stage as a part of a final render on the color correction, I would not consider messing with it in the render.

David






Peace


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lisa rolley
Re: RedRushes color shift compaired to (f) QT qrapped originals?
on May 18, 2009 at 2:02:39 pm

Quick update David & friends

I clicked metadata in RedAlert and looked at the top left corner where it says color space and it is indeed REDspace for that and Gamma so iam not sure that setting REC709 was the correct setting for me to do - i am going to give it a go now with these new settings in RedRushes and hope that that was the trick...wish i had known about these details.

Also curious about the other suggested method of just loading the r3d file in redrushes - were you guys saying that this method tells redAlert what the color space & gamma settings should be?

Thanks

Lisa


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lisa rolley
Re: RedRushes color shift compaired to (f) QT qrapped originals?
on May 18, 2009 at 2:17:30 pm

I meant to say REDAlert in the last part of my post...anyways waiting for render to finish now and praying it looks the same as the qt wrapped files.


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lisa rolley
Re: RedRushes color shift compaired to (f) QT qrapped originals?
on May 17, 2009 at 4:41:21 pm

Hello Gary

If possible can you explain how to do this process - i just looked through the Cow for posts on this and came up empty...googling it now too but if you or anyone else reading this can explain exactly how to do this i would really appreciate your expertise.

I followed david's instructions for using redRushes but this part i don't remember being in that post. What i did was just select the main root folder for redrushed to look at not anything specific within that folder.

Thanks for replying Gary you rock sir

Best
Lisa


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David Battistella
Re: RedRushes color shift compaired to (f) QT qrapped originals?
on May 17, 2009 at 7:06:44 pm


In one R3D folder of your shot footage you will notice that there is a file with the extension.

.RSX

This file contains metadata information from the camera settings. This is the file the QT PROXY file looks at when it is displaying the R3D material, to tell the r3d which parameters to use on playback.

You can also CREATE a file like this in REDCINE to create a look and apply it to all of your footage.

Typically REDRUSHES looks to the folder and uses the file to create the QT media.

You can FORCE REDRUSHES to use a look that you create by saving an RSX file and then LOADING it for use in REDRUSHES.

THis is done in the LOOK SOURCE window of RED RUSHES RENDER window.

You can force load a look file if you change look source from CAMERA to RSX and then point to the file you want it to read.

It's all pretty straightforward.

I should stop now, because I am giving a lot of free advice that many clients pay for.

You really should spend a bit of time getting to know this stuff.

We all want to help out but we are not RED tech support. I'm all for helping out but STEP by STEP support like this usually costs $.

The COW is a great resource but you do have a responsibility to take the info and figure out a bit on your own.

It's only fair, no?

David






Peace


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lisa rolley
Re: RedRushes color shift compaired to (f) QT qrapped originals?
on May 17, 2009 at 7:26:40 pm

Hey David - i totally agree and I apologize for this becoming such a lengthy back and forth.

Its really nice of you to reply to my posts and take the time to answer my questions as best as possible - you rock sir : )

I hope to learn from this whole experience and do some in depth reading up on RED workflow.

All the Best

Lisa


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Uli Plank
Re: RedRushes color shift compaired to (f) QT qrapped originals?
on May 17, 2009 at 7:59:20 pm

There is not that much organized in-depth reading on the RED workflow yet.
You may need some personal coaching…

Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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David Battistella
Re: RedRushes color shift compaired to (f) QT qrapped originals?
on May 17, 2009 at 7:35:03 pm



The RSX get made in REDALERT... I boobed a bit in that last post.

David




Peace


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joe hedge
Re: RedRushes color shift compaired to (f) QT qrapped originals?
on May 18, 2009 at 3:46:17 am


"In one R3D folder of your shot footage you will notice that there is a file with the extension.

.RSX "

He means that after you open RedAlert, then use command-O to open an r3d, RedAlert will create an .RSX file to the same folder the r3d is in that contains the metadata for the camera settings. RA uses this when transcoding to ProRes ...

whoa little earthquake there....

You can also just use RedRushes (which batch processes, RA doesn't) and leave the RR Look Source setting in the Render controls on "Camera", and the Color Space and Gamma Space on "Look Source", and it will do the same thing, i.e. read the metadata to make the transcode, but without creating an .rsx file. Or you can set RedRushs to use the .rsx you created in RA.






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