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Sean Davison
pro res 422 compression?
on May 6, 2009 at 7:59:10 pm

In currently onlining a Documentary that has been shot on RED (50 odd hours)

It's looking fantastic but I have been noticing a fair bit of compression artifacting namely Jaggies in fine lines and some Moireing. These seem present to be in the source files too. (I'm using a Grade 1 Sony CRT to Grade on rather than an LCD)

The workflow has been

Shot Red 4k 16.9 Rec 709
Rushes Transcoded to ProRes 422HQ 1080i via log and Transfer in FCP
Offline (including extreme zoom Reframes)

Pregrade - Zoom Reframes replaced with re Transcoded shots via Red Cine

ProRes 422HQ sequence (s) sent to Color
Graded and sent back to FCP

Final online - ProRes 422HD 108050i sequence

Another question - If I wanted to link this sequence back to the R3d Files and output them via Kona 2k how would I do that?




http://www.twotallmen.co.uk


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Stuart Ferreyra
Re: pro res 422 compression?
on May 6, 2009 at 8:05:45 pm

What kind of debayer did you use?
I usually get jaggies if the debayer is anything less than Full Res.

Stuart Ferreyra
Timecode Multimedia
Co-owner / Colorist / Consultant

- SD & HD Tape Captures and Tape Outputs
- SD & HD Tape Duplication, Teranex Up / Down /Cross Conversions
- Visit Stuart's studio on the web


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Uli Plank
Re: pro res 422 compression?
on May 6, 2009 at 8:30:47 pm

Use REDAlert and REDrushes for transcoding and play a bit with OLPF compensation and de-bayering values. You might be able to avoid the extreme rendering times o fa full decode.

Regards,

Uli

Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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Sean Davison
Re: pro res 422 compression?
on May 6, 2009 at 9:22:40 pm

the project if for 108050i delivery on hdcam

Log and Transfer was used for the Transcode

http://www.twotallmen.co.uk


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Mike Zimbard
Re: pro res 422 compression?
on May 7, 2009 at 12:36:20 am

When you do a transcode in log and transfer, where do you set a Debayer? I've only been able to choose Debayer in Red Rushes.






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Stuart Ferreyra
Re: pro res 422 compression?
on May 7, 2009 at 1:46:59 am

There's no choice of debayer in FCP that I know about.
Only in the RED apps.

Stuart Ferreyra
Timecode Multimedia
Co-owner / Colorist / Consultant

- SD & HD Tape Captures and Tape Outputs
- SD & HD Tape Duplication, Teranex Up / Down /Cross Conversions
- Visit Stuart's studio on the web


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Mike Zimbard
Re: pro res 422 compression?
on May 7, 2009 at 2:56:10 am

So is the transcoded ProRes output from Red Rushes able to produce higher quality output than FCP? I've always found my FCP L&T footage looks great in ProRes and transcoding is faster than RR. However, am I losing quality going the FCP route?



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Uli Plank
Re: pro res 422 compression?
on May 7, 2009 at 5:55:22 am

When using L&T, you have limited control over debayer by going to system settings. You should find a RED entry there where you can choose half standard or half high quality, but you can't get full a decode directly inside of FCP right now.

Plus, in RA/RR or Clipfinder you have more possibilities to tweak the filters (detail, OLPF compensation and scaling). Get yourself familiar with the offline/online workflow suggested on Indie4K and you'll be rewarded by a relatively fast workflow and great quality.

Hope this helps,

Uli

Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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David Battistella
Re: pro res 422 compression?
on May 7, 2009 at 12:11:36 pm

[Mike Zimbard] "However, am I losing quality going the FCP route? "

For a very excellent way to ponder what quality really is I suggest you read the book "ZEN and the art of Motorcycle Maintenance".

The reason I say this is that quality really can not be defined. If you are pleased with the fcp results you are getting now. WHy change? Is some secret pixel monkey going to ruin your dreams at night?

The point is that quality is subjective and all that matters is what you are happy with.

David




Peace


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Sean Davison
Re: pro res 422 compression?
on May 7, 2009 at 12:22:22 pm

Pixel Monkey no - QAR Labs at major Broadcasters yes.



http://www.twotallmen.co.uk


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Mike Zimbard
Re: pro res 422 compression?
on May 7, 2009 at 2:21:39 pm

Excellent point David. I completely agree. It's more for my own technical understanding because I always like to know what's going on under the hood :)



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Stuart Ferreyra
Re: pro res 422 compression?
on May 7, 2009 at 3:45:55 pm

We work with a minimum of 10hrs of RED material per month that go to broadcast at our studio. I have used every debayer and combination possible in the RED apps and whatever options are available with FCP.

Yes, the conversions are way-way faster in FCP but the quality GREATLY suffers. With FCP we definitely get blockiness, jagged edges and a major lost of picture detail. With the RED apps, using a combination of settings and the Full Debayer option all of those issues are COMPLETELY gone.

In color correction and finishing, it helps A LOT to maintain all the detail; specially for under-exposed shadows, over-exposed highlights or fine detail textures that need to be preserved for a stunning look. With the full debayer I am able to push, pull and stretch the video data to greater limits than using the conventional mediocre quality that FCP's log and transfer gives.

For some projects, the quick and easy FCP way may be sufficient, but we much rather spend the time converting with a Full Res debayer (conversion ratios can go up to 8:1 or higher) and maintain all the latitude, detail and quality rendition of the RED files.


Stuart Ferreyra
Timecode Multimedia
Co-owner / Colorist / Consultant

- SD & HD Tape Captures and Tape Outputs
- SD & HD Tape Duplication, Teranex Up / Down /Cross Conversions
- Visit Stuart's studio on the web


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Uli Plank
Re: pro res 422 compression?
on May 8, 2009 at 7:19:06 am

For ultimate quality I second this, and it even doesn't need to be that much slower than FCP. With RR or Clipfinder on a beefy Mac Pro you can treat a few clips at the same time, while FCP doesn't really make full use of all the cores you paid for. Just get enough RAM (at least 2 GB per core) and process from one RAID to another.

It all depends on your final product…

Regards,

Uli

Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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Noah Kadner
Re: pro res 422 compression?
on May 7, 2009 at 1:47:45 am

Why 108050i and not 25p instead? There's no reason at all to introduce interlacing to a RED project. 25p will play out to 1080/50i just as well as 50i native.

Noah

Check out my new RED Blog. Unlock the secrets of the DVX100, HVX200 and Apple Color.
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DVD Studio Pro and How to Light Interviews.
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Joshua Porter
Re: pro res 422 compression?
on Jun 14, 2009 at 6:09:25 pm

Very true, especially if shooting 4k

Joshua Porter
Producer/Director/DP
I AMedia
http://www.visions2video.com


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gary adcock
Re: pro res 422 compression?
on May 7, 2009 at 1:14:58 pm

[Mike Zimbard] "When you do a transcode in log and transfer, where do you set a Debayer? I've only been able to choose Debayer in Red Rushes."

System Preferences > REDCODE
FCP does not allow for a full debayer in this manner



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Check out
http://www.aja.com/kiprotour/

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Sean Davison
Re: pro res 422 compression?
on May 10, 2009 at 6:31:59 pm

Thanks guys - really good responses. If I wanted to take my Full Res Offline back to the R3ds and re encode at 2k how would I do it?

Is this a Crimson issue?

http://www.twotallmen.co.uk


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Uli Plank
Re: pro res 422 compression?
on May 11, 2009 at 7:23:20 am

Clipfinder would do.

Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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Sean Davison
Re: pro res 422 compression?
on May 18, 2009 at 11:12:24 am

Ive been going through the Color FCS white paper trying to get this set up to offline at ProRess 422HQ and then reingest at HQ by creating a RED using ProRes Sequence but I'm losing the Native option in the L&T Transcode to column. Any idea why this is?

http://www.twotallmen.co.uk


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Uli Plank
Re: pro res 422 compression?
on May 18, 2009 at 4:16:21 pm

No idea, it works here.

But why don't you go the Clipfinder route with XMLs? It's faster and more flexible.

Regards,

Uli

Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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Sean Davison
Re: pro res 422 compression?
on May 18, 2009 at 4:26:51 pm

Thanks Uli...Its all a bit irrelevant now - I got a sequence into Color using the white paper instructions. I set Color up to render out uncompressed 8bit and it too 15 minutes to render 5 seconds! That would mean it would take a week to render on programme!

I think Ill stick with the Pro Res HQ initial Transcode - Its a shame I cant tweak the settings though....


http://www.twotallmen.co.uk


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