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lisa rolley
FCP Workflow: RED 2K @ 78fps & 4K @ 24 fps
on Apr 30, 2009 at 3:55:06 am

Hey RED friends!

Firstly i am running the latest & greatest version of FCStudio on the following system:

MacPro
2x3.2 ghz quad-core intel
16GB RAM
ATI Radeon HD 2600
Blackmagic Decklink HD Extreme 2
Internal 2TB RAID 0 drive for media
NTSC Calibrated Monitor for CC work

I also downloaded the RED Final Cut Studio Installer, REDCODE QT Codec v3.8 & REDCODE CS4 Installer in order to work with the highest rez RED material - my thinking is that because its only 30 GB of footage, iam on a pretty fast system, and its short form I should be able to use the native stuff.

I had a look at the RED FCS Whitepaper and it kinda just left me with more questions : )

I am pretty new to RED camera workflow and I have just been handed a hard drive with some really amazing footage shot on the RED. The DP has told me that he shot at 2 different resolutions and frame rates.

1) 2K is slow motion stuff and he is saying that it was shot at 78fps?!

2) 4K (majority of the footage) @ 24 fps

I am being asked to cut x6 :30 spots and then CC in Color for final output - which i believe will be for this DP's website...but of course I have not talked to him at length about delivery whether it needs to be 4x3 ltrbxed or 16x9.

I guess my question is how should i process the footage for editing in FCP & CCing in Color, what format should my timelines be i.e 1920x1080 or higher?? frame rate/ etc...

Any help and advice you guys might be able to offer would b e awesome in that I am new to this workflow.

Thank you

Lisa


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gary adcock
Re: FCP Workflow: RED 2K @ 78fps & 4K @ 24 fps
on Apr 30, 2009 at 1:27:36 pm

[lisa rolley] "Firstly i am running the latest & greatest version of FCStudio on the following system:
NTSC Calibrated Monitor for CC work "


Lisa,
unless you are delivering SD only, color correcting HD on an SD monitor is questionable.

" my question is how should i process the footage for editing in FCP & CCing in Color, what format should my timelines be i.e 1920x1080 or higher?? frame rate/ etc... "

WHAT ARE YOU DELIVERING?

that is where you start - if you are just doing this for the first time - try the ProRes Route, it is by far the fastest and easiest way to get your content into FCS.

Note that Log and Transfer may not give you 1080 files directly unless the DP shot what is called Quad HD. In that case use RED Rushes to conform all of your files into 1920 x 1080 ProRes versions and edit and color correct from there.

After you get your project finished you have the option to go back and grade via the R3D files but in many cases that is not needed in a first time project.


gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Inside look at the IoHD
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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lisa rolley
Re: FCP Workflow: RED 2K @ 78fps & 4K @ 24 fps
on May 6, 2009 at 9:32:43 pm

Hey Gary

thanks for the response - sorry to get back to you so late - so i met with the DP who shot this stuff and basically HD 1920x1080 29.97 is the delivery - then he can do web, dvd, sd ltrbx etc if need be for whatever other delivery he has to do - I do want to do some cc work as well and iam not sure about a few things - mainly best workflow.

This is not a first time thing per se - i mean maybe for me as a personal project but its for a very high end Fashion Photographer's site and potentially would be seen by more than just people looking at the website - so i really do want to make it as high quality as possible - i have 6 :30 sec edits to do as well as a montage reel type thing - so in that there is 2k & 4k footage I just want to know the best way to get it into FCP start cutting and then grading in COLOR as a last step once picture is locked or before editing using RedCine.

I just want to start this off correctly and finish the same way - any advice you might have would be great - i also found the FCS RED whitepaper and was going to check that out for workflows but if u had any other resources online for the latest RED FCP workflows that would be awesome.

Best

lisa


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Russell Lasson
Re: FCP Workflow: RED 2K @ 78fps & 4K @ 24 fps
on May 8, 2009 at 2:09:50 pm

[lisa rolley] "i also found the FCS RED whitepaper"

This outlines the options for getting your project into Color.

-Russ

Russell Lasson
Universal Post
Ridgeline Digital Cinema Mastering
Salt Lake City, UT


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lisa rolley
Re: FCP Workflow: RED 2K @ 78fps & 4K @ 24 fps
on May 11, 2009 at 5:00:03 pm

Hey there thanks for the reply

I am just curious as to why exactly it is better to use red alert or redcine to convert the clips to 1080i format as opposed to using log & transfer in fcp.

Also which is better Redcine or RedAlert for doing this process? Once I convert and edit these clips I will want Color Correct the locked picture and I am debating whether to do this in color as a final step or do it with redcine or redalert as part of the initial process - what are your thoughts sir?

If I go the COLOR route in the end will it be difficult to CC the RAW/Red/R3D files and send back to fcp even though i potentially would have NOT used FCP for the 1080i conform?

Any help would be great - i just need to start editing this evening and want to go about this the best / correct way.

Let me know your thoughts and if anyone else has some suggestions please feel free : ) its my first RED project and iam SO excited to kick its ass!

best

Lisa



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gary adcock
Re: FCP Workflow: RED 2K @ 78fps & 4K @ 24 fps
on May 11, 2009 at 5:22:45 pm

[lisa rolley] "I am just curious as to why exactly it is better to use red alert or redcine to convert the clips to 1080i format as opposed to using log & transfer in fcp.
"


Unless the content is shot as "Quad HD" your ingest into FCP is 2048x 1080 or 2048 x 1024.
The Red apps allow you to do this more efficiently with more flexibility than FCP alone.

I prefer RedRushes to handle the conversion process, I find RedCine too unstable for my needs and RedAlert can only do one clip at a time.



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Check out
http://www.aja.com/kiprotour/

Inside look at the IoHD
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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lisa rolley
Re: FCP Workflow: RED 2K @ 78fps & 4K @ 24 fps
on May 11, 2009 at 6:31:35 pm

I am nto sure I understand your response Gary - what is "Quad" and how will this effect my workflow if the footage is not - i know the DP shot 2k & 4k formats and it needs to be delivered at 1080i...also if frame rates vary how / will that effect the process i do in redRushes?

Thanks

Lisa


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Uli Plank
Re: FCP Workflow: RED 2K @ 78fps & 4K @ 24 fps
on May 11, 2009 at 6:41:42 pm

There is a full 4K format and a format that precisely doubles HD, i.e. 3840 x 2160 (called quad here). The latter can be downscaled to 1920 x 1080 very easily, while full 4K is more critical in scaling.

If you need true interlace in the end, you need to shoot twice the speed. If this hasn't been done, you'll end up with PsF (progressive segmented frames), which is compatible with interlace, but the image content is still progressive. The I/O card can take care of that.

Hope this helps,

Uli

Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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lisa rolley
Re: FCP Workflow: RED 2K @ 78fps & 4K @ 24 fps
on May 11, 2009 at 6:45:52 pm

Hey there,

Actually i dont believe the interlacing matters i just know that 1920x1080 is the delivery and i am familiar with 1080i format - all i know is that this DP shot 2k & 4k and now i need to conform to 1920x1080 edit in fcp and CC either beforehand with the conform tool (i.e. redcine or redrushes) or after the fact going into COLOR with the R3d file - All

What I am asking is what the best workflow will be for all of this in that most seem to advise AGAINST using FCP's Log & Transfer tool.

I need to start editing tonight so it would be great to get some solid advice and workflow advice on this matter.

thank you

Lisa


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Uli Plank
Re: FCP Workflow: RED 2K @ 78fps & 4K @ 24 fps
on May 11, 2009 at 9:07:58 pm

It all depends on your shooting ratio.

If it is high, I'd opt for an offline/online workflow. Transcode everything with Clipfinder to 1280 by 720 in ProRes SQ with 1/4 debayering (pretty fast). After finishing the edit, send the XML to Clipfinder and transcode again in full quality, with some first-light correction from RA if needed, since ProRes is only 10 bit. This will take some time. Now send the results back to FCP in full quality with an XML conformed by Clipfinder.

If your shooting ratio is lower, go online right away, but do the transcode in Clipfinder, which is far more efficient than L&T (using all cores of your machine or even several machines). Again, a first-light is advisable, while the final grading can be done in Color.

Hope this helps,

Uli




Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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lisa rolley
Re: FCP Workflow: RED 2K @ 78fps & 4K @ 24 fps
on May 11, 2009 at 9:56:30 pm

It honestly only adds even more confusion into the mix - i appreciate everyne's responses BUT a lot of this stuff you are mentioning in your posts is absolute hieroglyphics to me - i have no experience workign with RED and have no idea what to do.

I wish I could look at the footage simply tell you guys what format the footage is exactly and then be told which approach would be best if i am delivery x6 :30 spots @ 1920x1080.

Every response has just added more workflows and confusing terminology / software into the mix and i just need to get going on these edits - this is not a film these are :30 spots and so each spot has its own folder of footage for it.

I must seem like a nut a tthis point you guys have all offered help i just am that much in the dark that much of what you are recommended is sounding like gibberish.

Lisa : (


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Uli Plank
Re: FCP Workflow: RED 2K @ 78fps & 4K @ 24 fps
on May 11, 2009 at 10:02:35 pm

Well, since the spots are short, just go for L&T then and ingest the material as ProRes HQ. While this is not the most efficient workflow, it should get you going.

I'm sorry for the confusion, but RED is more like film than video editing and offers lots of options. I spent half a year to master all the possibilities and I've been working with film for 25 years…

Best regards,

Uli




Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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lisa rolley
Re: FCP Workflow: RED 2K @ 78fps & 4K @ 24 fps
on May 11, 2009 at 10:27:11 pm

Well i Would really like to get the best results with the transfer to 1080 and from what i have read the L&T method is not advised - in that i need to CC will it matter whether i use this method or decide to use RedCine or RedRushes to do this process of creating 1920x1080 clips?

I appreciate your time and understand what you are saying I just wish there was a simple answer so i can start cutting and grading ya know...

best

Lisa


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gary adcock
Re: FCP Workflow: RED 2K @ 78fps & 4K @ 24 fps
on May 12, 2009 at 12:06:53 am

[lisa rolley] "Actually i dont believe the interlacing matters i just know that 1920x1080 is the delivery and i am familiar with 1080i format - all i know is that this DP shot 2k & 4k and now i need to conform to 1920x1080 edit in fcp"

Lisa

Ok, not to be rude, but I do not understand how can you work on any project when you do not know what the final output format is going to be?

with any new workflow you work backwards from the delivery to solve your production issues, I find it much easier when I understand the delivery when i start.



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Check out
http://www.aja.com/kiprotour/

Inside look at the IoHD
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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lisa rolley
Re: FCP Workflow: RED 2K @ 78fps & 4K @ 24 fps
on May 12, 2009 at 2:06:10 am

HEy Gary

I thought i had stated the delivery in an earlier post - regardless again its 1920x1080 29.97 - it will go to web, dvd and possibly other formats in sd (ltrbx obviously) so i have been asked to deliver everything at 1920x1080.

Any other info you need to advise me properly - just let me know?

thanks
lisa


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Uli Plank
Re: FCP Workflow: RED 2K @ 78fps & 4K @ 24 fps
on May 12, 2009 at 10:13:19 am

Sorry Lisa,

you'll have to get you head around of few things, or you may disappoint your client.

First of all, your camerafolks have been shooting 24 fps – just like film. 78 fps for slo-mo is irrelevant for this, since a correct camera setting will thell the other programs to play at 24 fps, hence the slo-mo. The only difference is in size, you'll loose some resolution in the slo-mos, but not too much (2K gets fully decoded by FCP, 4K only half).

To get such footage playing at 29,97 fps, a technique called 3:2 pulldown has been applied for decades in the US or Japan when the original footage was shot on film. It adds redundant partial frames, but can't generate any new information. (There's a pretty good Wiki on this).

All modern devices, like DVD, Blu-Ray or disk-based media players, can generate this pulldown on the fly for screens from the last millenium which need it.

Many modern displays – like newer flats or projectors – can screen genuine progressive frames at 24 fps without pulldown. Computers don't like pulldown at all, they'll show interlace lines or blurriness if the footage has it. So, in short, you don't want it at all!

Edit in 1920 by 1080 @ 24 fps all the way through to get a good master with ProRes HQ.

Blu-Rays and DVDs can be generated from this master at 24 fps progressive, and the player takes care of pulldown. BTW, you can use genuine 16:9 even for DVD (called anamorphic), the player will take care of letterboxing (you'll need to know how to correctly encode and author it, though).

If a master for HDTV is needed, you can tell your I/O card to generate pulldown and/or letterbxing. At least I suppose so, I'm working with AJA, but I believe BlackMagic will do as well.

For the internet you'll encode with square pixels and 24 fps at the desired size, again you should be familiar with the optimal settings for the encoder.

Hope this helps,

Uli

Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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gary adcock
Re: FCP Workflow: RED 2K @ 78fps & 4K @ 24 fps
on May 12, 2009 at 12:51:13 pm

[Uli Plank] "Edit in 1920 by 1080 @ 24 fps all the way through to get a good master with ProRes HQ. "

My only comment is to correct Uli's timebase reference here.

Edit your material at 23.98 ( 23.976) so that your computer and video card can properly playback the footage at 29.97 with the pulldown added.


DO NOT EDIT AT 24.0 !!!



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Check out
http://www.aja.com/kiprotour/

Inside look at the IoHD
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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lisa rolley
Re: FCP Workflow: RED 2K @ 78fps & 4K @ 24 fps
on May 12, 2009 at 3:25:19 pm

hey guys thanks for the great responses - very detailed i must say while most of this stuff i already know you did put things in a straight facts type of way which really appreciate.

What in your estimation is the proper tool to make all these clips 1920x1080 @ 23.976? Seems that RedRushes is suggested a lot and then the remaining question i had for you pro's is once picture is locked how do i CC in Color using the R3d RAW files and then send back to my fcp sequence - OR are u saying to just use the pro res versions and forget the full res original R3D files?

awesome patience from guys much appreciated : )

best

Lisa


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Uli Plank
Re: FCP Workflow: RED 2K @ 78fps & 4K @ 24 fps
on May 12, 2009 at 6:51:45 pm

Thanks, Gary, for the correction, I'm European and don't need to fight with that on a daily basis ;-)

To Lisa:

Since you are working for electronic media, ProRes is good enough for final grading in Color, you don't need to go through the hazzle of offline/online. Color is using half resolution of 4K currently, just like FCP. The only point of using native R3D in Color is a some more latitude for corrections. But since you'll end up on 8 bit media anyway, 10 bit from ProRes is fine for some adjustments.

If you need more extreme corrections, create a basic look in REDAlert (don't use curves), save it and use it during ingest by L&T to generate your ProRes files (as described in the whitepaper). They will get a first-light grading by this and you'll preserve enough latitude for your final corrections.

You will be deviding color grading into two steps, so to speak, by doing a rough grade during ingest and the final grade on ProRes in Color.

Hope this helps,

Uli

Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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lisa rolley
Re: FCP Workflow: RED 2K @ 78fps & 4K @ 24 fps
on May 12, 2009 at 8:11:44 pm

Hey U

thanks for the reply - makes sense and i know you guys have BEEN telling me but i just want to make sure i get the best looking end product in case this goes beyond DVD & web and actually goes to air - ultimately i am delivery 1920x1080 29.97 and that is that.

My question for you Uli is the Redalert L&T grading stuff is a little confusing in your post - do i bring the r3d into redalert to do innitial grading and output to pro res hq 1920x1080 29.97 or is fcp's log & transfer involved in this in some way??

I plan to do this tonight because i cannot put it off any longer and must start cutting all this footage.

your help is much appreciate

Lisa


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Uli Plank
Re: FCP Workflow: RED 2K @ 78fps & 4K @ 24 fps
on May 12, 2009 at 9:12:56 pm

You ingest one R3D clip typical for a series of shots (one location or one angle) into RA and grade it roughly (if needed at all) but avoid curves. Save the grade (it's a .RLX file and should be in /Library/Application Support/REDAlert/Presets).

Now you open your directories in FCP's L&T and choose that grade for ingest. Mark all the clips with the same lighting for the batch and import them as ProRes HQ. This will give you pre-corrected versions of those clips.

Repeat as needed for other clips and lighting conditions. Edit in FCP and grade in Color without ever looking back.

I consider this one of the easiest workflows. There are more efficient ones you'll learn over time.

Hope this gets you going, since I'll go to bed now …

But please tell me how it worked for you.

Uli



Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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gary adcock
Re: FCP Workflow: RED 2K @ 78fps & 4K @ 24 fps
on May 12, 2009 at 9:39:55 pm

[Uli Plank] "Thanks, Gary, for the correction, I'm European and don't need to fight with that on a daily basis ;-) "

As I said my friend.

it was my only correction.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Check out
http://www.aja.com/kiprotour/

Inside look at the IoHD
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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lisa rolley
Re: FCP Workflow: RED 2K @ 78fps & 4K @ 24 fps
on May 12, 2009 at 10:31:13 pm

Hey Gary,

Just to clarify - if my clips are at 24fps are u suggesting i transcode to 23.976 1920x1080 - and if so can i do what Uli described for me in RedAlert but with RedRushes as u suggested it is better for batch processing. From what i understand you are saying the 29.97 process can happen last in say AE for delivery if 1080i is needed.

I am about to take this on and you guys have cleared up a lot i just want your personal opinion on which tool to use now and if you agree with Uli's method of initial minor grading and transcoding and then edit and final ccing in color - and if so can i use your suggested tool (redRushes) to do this with?

Iam so excited to start this project!

best

Lisa


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gary adcock
Re: FCP Workflow: RED 2K @ 78fps & 4K @ 24 fps
on May 13, 2009 at 1:14:22 pm

[lisa rolley] "Just to clarify - if my clips are at 24fps are u suggesting i transcode to 23.976"


I doubt seriously that the footage was shot at 24.0, that 24p (Fps) video content in the US is cut as 23.98 it is NOT cut at 24.0

Traditionally only film and special efx footage is shot at 24.0 but viewed and edited at 23.98 to allow for realtime playback and downconversion to NTSC on set.

Final Cut does a lousy job handling content with integer (round number) frame rates when cutting for NTSC drop frame delivery.




gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Check out
http://www.aja.com/kiprotour/

Inside look at the IoHD
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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lisa rolley
Re: FCP Workflow: RED 2K @ 78fps & 4K @ 24 fps
on May 13, 2009 at 2:56:55 pm

hey gary

its weird though because in QT it says the clips are all 24 fps - i have not yet brought anything into fcp but today is the day - other projects are done finally and this one begins.

Any thoughts on the other stuff i asked you about in my last post - look i know this is a very long chain of posts and redundant info being given - dont get me wrong i appreciate your time and patience in the matter.

Let me know if you have some final thoughts on this piepline

Import R3D's into RedAlert or RedRushes (Not redCine because it is too buggy : ) convert from 24fps into 23.98fps for a better conversion to 29.97 down the line - also convert to 1920x1080 and do slight color adjustments (one question i had was whether this is possible in redrushes the app you recommend i use because it allows for batch processing...lastly export as Pro Res (HQ) (1920x1080 23.98 fps) and import into FCP for editing.

From what Uli explained i can then CC in COLOR either with these files i created OR using a special export option from RedRushes or Alert have FCP/Color look at the original R3D files...this aspect of the process is a little confusing to me and obviously i will need to choose a workflow to stick with as I have 5 more of these :30 spots to do.

I hope that made sense and thank you in advance.

Best

Lisa


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Uli Plank
Re: FCP Workflow: RED 2K @ 78fps & 4K @ 24 fps
on May 13, 2009 at 3:08:15 pm

The RED One can shoot true 24 fps, since it is a film camera, not a video camera. I'm not sure (our's is in China right now) if it can be set to 23,97 as well.

But if it has shot at 24 fps, I'd keep that all through editing and correction or you may get quite a mess with TC. Instead, re-conform the final result to 23,97 with the help of Cinema Tools.

Hope this helps,

Uli

Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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lisa rolley
Re: FCP Workflow: RED 2K @ 78fps & 4K @ 24 fps
on May 13, 2009 at 4:19:45 pm

Gary and anyone else want to chime in with conflicting / confusing opinions?!?! oh man i just want to get going with this and not have it bite me in the end.

gary you said i should conform to 23.976 because it will be easier to convert to 29.97 in AE and now Uli is telling me to leave it because of possible TC issues and just use cinema tools - I have actually never used cinema tools and was just going to use AE to do anyone frame rate conversion or ltrxbing to 4x3 when / if needed.

Please let mek now a final consensus here is possible - i know there are different routes to take but it seems we have gotten down to a few options for this project i am about to embark upon - come on someone bring the voice of workflow RED reason : )

thanks
Lisa



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David Battistella
Re: FCP Workflow: RED 2K @ 78fps & 4K @ 24 fps
on May 13, 2009 at 4:42:29 pm

Lisa,

I have been following this thread very closely and you are getting excellent advice.

There is a definitive difference between material shot at 24 and material shot at 23.98.

The RED allows you to SET THE TIME BASE of the camera at 23.98, 24, 25, 29.97.

You need to determine for sure if the material was shot at the 24 TIME BASE setting.

The camera's TIME BASE can be set to 23.98 and can still be shot at 24fps.

Open a clip in REDCINE. In the SHOT menu check to see that the METADATA indeed reads 24 and not 23.98. This is how you can determine what the TIMEBASE of the camera was set to.

If it reads 23.98 then you are good to go.

If it reads 24.0 (IN THE SHOT MENU NOT IN THE PROJECT MENU) then you indeed shot at a project TIMEBASE setting of 24 and you will have to treat it as true 24fps material.

You will most likely have to cut at 24 and do the conversion at the last stage.

Hope this helps.

David






Peace


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gary adcock
Re: FCP Workflow: RED 2K @ 78fps & 4K @ 24 fps
on May 13, 2009 at 5:25:35 pm

[Uli Plank] " RED One can shoot true 24 fps, since it is a film camera, not a video camera."

Never said it did not shoot 24.0 but RED is not a film camera either- it is a digital cinema camera.

23.98 is not something you deal with Uli and as you know for simplicity of use in digital cinema in the US - we shoot 23.98 to allow for Realtime downconversions (ie Playback) on NTSC systems-
As long as I not that 23.976 is NOT drop frame, but the record/ playback system is physically slowed down to achieve that timing.

If you shoot 24.0 there are very very few VIDEO playback systems that can handle the adjustment to playback the footage on 29.97 NTSC calibrated displays, hence the reason everyone shoots, edits and playback at 23.98.



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Check out
http://www.aja.com/kiprotour/

Inside look at the IoHD
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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lisa rolley
Re: FCP Workflow: RED 2K @ 78fps & 4K @ 24 fps
on May 13, 2009 at 5:59:33 pm

hey guys,

So i went into redCine into the shot section to check out the metadata and for this particular character all the shots are 24fps 4K (there are 6 characters in all - each will need to be delivered as :30 spots 1920x1080 29.97) I believe different characters are at 2k & 4k and possibly different frame rates as well - just to make my laugh more complicated : )

Again I am asking how best to tackle this project - whether it be using redrushes, redalert, redcine for conforming to 1920x1080 and innitial color grade and then cutting in fcp and doing final grade in Color before exporting for full HD delivery as well as AE frame rate & possible ltrbx 4:3 conversions.

Different opinions have been voiced on this but there always seems to be something missing in the explanation of complete pipeline / workflow...i think this thread is causing some grey hairs to sprout on my head and yours : )

thoughts?

Lisa


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David Battistella
Re: FCP Workflow: RED 2K @ 78fps & 4K @ 24 fps
on May 13, 2009 at 6:24:34 pm



For lack of a better term. I would call this a clusterf**k.

There is not really any good reason (unless you are trying to balance to specific HMI frequencies to shoot RED with a 24 TIME BASE)

Gary has already mentioned very accurately that 23.98 and 29.97 are the preferred framerates for all post in North America.

You can not use RED RUSHES to do a FRAMERATE CONVERSION. In essence what has happened is you have to now possibly do two conversions, one to 23.98 and then one to 29.97 for the finish.

You can render all material through REDRUSHES, et at a 24fps TIMEBASE and then at the end of the process use cinematools to conform the @$ to 23.98 or to 29.97.

Your biggest problem in the conform is going to be to have the FRAMERATE conversion.


I would cut the material at 24 TIMEBASE and then convert the offline at the last stage when you are locked and before you go to FX and color correction.

David



Peace


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Uli Plank
Re: FCP Workflow: RED 2K @ 78fps & 4K @ 24 fps
on May 13, 2009 at 9:07:33 pm

Thanks, David, that's exactly what I wanted to say. I've seen camerafolks on both sides of the pool shooting straight 24 fps with the RED, but that's only good for cinema.

Sorry, Lisa, but you have to make sure for all shots if the were shot as 24 or 23.97 fps and treat them accordingly. Camerapeople who don't ask on which medium their footage is supposed to end up are not doing their job correctly and now you have to cure it.

I can't remember how many times I had to cure things in post because of insufficient communication between production and post-production…

Best regards,

Uli

Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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lisa rolley
Re: FCP Workflow: RED 2K @ 78fps & 4K @ 24 fps
on May 13, 2009 at 10:34:55 pm

This frame rate discussion is very informative but i really do need to get some pro advice on the workflow in exact terms.

Ok guys thanks for the info - NOW that we know this info what should be the workflow in exact terms: HERE IS SOME OF THE INFO I HAVE GOTTEN FROM YOU GUYS : )

RedCine, RedAlert, RedRushes > keep at the current frame rate just reduce to 1920x1080 for editing in FCP @ 24fps?

Also i keep asking about the CC process coming from these apps and into fcp then back to color and back to FCP for final export - or should i just be grading the pro res export and not the r3d files?

Having never used Cinema Tools I was just going to take my final CC edits @ 1920x1080 24 fps into AE to do any frame rate or resolution changes.

It would be great to just get a pipeline xplanation of the appropriate workflow on this - i appreciate the RED 24 vs. 23.976 discussions but its not helping me at this point!

love you guys you all are the best and i owe you all a beer.

Always
yours truly
Lisa ROlley


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lisa rolley
Re: FCP Workflow: RED 2K @ 78fps & 4K @ 24 fps
on May 13, 2009 at 11:23:27 pm

Oh and i forgot to agree with the Cluster F*ck comment - it is indeed : )


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Uli Plank
Re: FCP Workflow: RED 2K @ 78fps & 4K @ 24 fps
on May 14, 2009 at 5:58:43 am

Under the assumption that your final result doesn't go to the big screen, this is my suggestion:

- Get Clipfinder by Hans-Geordg Daun (free), it has very good integrated help.
- Load your clips into it, do some first-light corrections where needed with the help of RA (the programs are tightly integrated, works like a breeze). You could even try the new beta, which allows you to shorten clips to what is actually needed to reduce rendering times. But like any beta: use with caution. The render settings I'd use are "Half High", only very critical shots like extremely low-light need "Full" decoding, which is very slooooow.
- Export as 1920 by 1080 24 fps ProRes HQ
- Edit in FCP as 24 fps progressive
- Observe the tutorial Walter Biscardi made here at the Cow on how to prepare your timeline for Color
- Do your color grading
- Output your sequence to FCP
- Render a single ProRes clip
- Open it as a clip in Cinema Tools (not as a project)
- Conform to 23.97 (two mouse clicks and one second, not hours of rendering!)

There you have your master!

Hope this helps,

Uli

Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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David Battistella
Re: FCP Workflow: RED 2K @ 78fps & 4K @ 24 fps
on May 14, 2009 at 1:02:06 pm


Quick and dirty is:

Encode everything to ProRes with camera metadata and edit in FCP.
Color Correct in FCP.
Output 1920x1080 to SR from a KONA 3.
Encode all your web stuff with compressor.

If you have never used Color, spend a bit of time with it first.

David



Peace


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gary adcock
Re: FCP Workflow: RED 2K @ 78fps & 4K @ 24 fps
on May 14, 2009 at 12:17:56 pm

[David Battistella] "For lack of a better term. I would call this a clusterf**k. "

David

for once I agree whole heartedly....



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Check out
http://www.aja.com/kiprotour/

Inside look at the IoHD
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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David Battistella
Re: FCP Workflow: RED 2K @ 78fps & 4K @ 24 fps
on May 14, 2009 at 12:58:05 pm

[gary adcock] "David

for once I agree whole heartedly.... "



That's funny Gary! :)


Peace.



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lisa rolley
Re: FCP Workflow: RED - patience is a virtue! The saga continues...
on May 14, 2009 at 6:19:41 pm

Hey Gary!

Quick question about RedRushes: what should my settings be - i see a bunch of options in RENDER / RESIZE / OUTPUT...

thank you

lisa


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David Battistella
Re: FCP Workflow: RED - patience is a virtue! The saga continues...
on May 14, 2009 at 7:13:38 pm



OK.

RENDER; HALF RES HIGH
TC: EXTERNAL
LOOK SOURCE: CAMERA
COLOR SPACE: REDSPACE
GAMMA: REC 709

RESIZE:
CROP: DO NOTHING
SCALE CHECK CHECKBOX 1920x1080
FIT: WIDTH
RESAMPLE: CATMULROM

OUTPUT

QTMOVIE

APPLE PORRES (HQ)
REEL ID FULL NAME

DO NOT CHECK BURNIN

Cost of all this advice on the cow.

PRICELESS





Peace


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gary adcock
Re: FCP Workflow: RED - patience is a virtue! The saga continues...
on May 14, 2009 at 8:00:00 pm

[David Battistella] "PRICELESS "

What he says....

david's advice will get you there.




gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Check out
http://www.aja.com/kiprotour/

Inside look at the IoHD
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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lisa rolley
Re: FCP Workflow: RED - patience is a virtue! The saga continues...
on May 14, 2009 at 8:01:47 pm

haha
love it.


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lisa rolley
Re: FCP Workflow: RED - patience is a virtue! The saga continues...
on May 14, 2009 at 9:47:48 pm

Hey David

So i did a test on one clip and it does not fill the entirety of the frame when i view it down in QT. What am i doign wrong - I followed your instructions to the T.

thanks
Lisa


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lisa rolley
NEVERMIND it worked!
on May 14, 2009 at 10:10:01 pm

NEVERMIND it worked!

Thanks guys : )

L


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lisa rolley
Re: FCP Workflow: RED - patience is a virtue! The saga continues...
on May 15, 2009 at 4:22:00 pm

Hey David,

Huge issue with RedRushes - comparing the renders out of RedRushes to the QT wrapped originals (f) there is a big big difference in the appearance of the exact same frames.

That is the originals when viewed down in QT as F H M or P wrapped qt files looked stunning and beautiful BUT the renders out of RedRushes looked dark and bland - nowhere near as good.

Please tell why this is happening and how to fix this issue - I left all this render over night because it was taking SO long and now i need ot be editing but this looks terrible compaired to the originals.

Lisa


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Uli Plank
Re: FCP Workflow: RED - patience is a virtue! The saga continues...
on May 15, 2009 at 9:30:21 pm

Check your color space and gamma.

Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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lisa rolley
Re: FCP Workflow: RED - patience is a virtue! The saga continues...
on May 15, 2009 at 9:25:29 pm

I cannot seem to get the renders to look nearly as good as the F qt's - i used exactly the settings you recommended and the resulting proRes qt's look terrible...

iam guessing everyone is buys or already on the way home : (



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