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Creating SD DVD from RED 4K Origination

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Handcranked Films
Creating SD DVD from RED 4K Origination
on Apr 12, 2009 at 4:35:06 pm

Last week I attempted to make my first Standard Def Anamorphic DVD as Demo Reel from footage originated from RED 4k with unacceptable results. Could the big problem be that since SD DVD is 30/60 fps format, that shooting with the RED in 23.98 simply will not work well?

Hopefully my footage is not screwed for standard def. work.

Here is my workflow.

Footage shot in 23.98 RED Space RAW.
Log and Transferred into FCP 6 and worked with in glorious HD rez.
Converted for SD 720x480p Anamorphic (tied both Compressor and Quicktime) Noticeable hit in resolution but still nice.
Imported into DVD Studio. In simulation mode it looks bad as when burned to DVD-- BAD.

Does anybody know of a published workflow out there for the best results.

Of course all help is welcome.

Thank You


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Uli Plank
Re: Creating SD DVD from RED 4K Origination
on Apr 12, 2009 at 5:55:57 pm

Do the downscale with MPEG Streamclip (free) set to "Better Downscale" in ProRes. Convert to MPEG-2 with Compressor, set to progressive. Or, even better but more expensive, with Cinema Craft Encoder.

Regards,

Uli

Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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David Battistella
Re: Creating SD DVD from RED 4K Origination
on Apr 12, 2009 at 9:43:32 pm



What are the particular problems?

Color?
Interlacing?
Compression artifacts?
You can safely send the sequence to compressor and have it create an SD DVD provided you have adjusted to settings in compressor to do a nice downconvert for you.

Compressor does use the motion engine from Shake and I have had excellent results by doing this.



You should color correct for SD in SD color space.

You do not have to create a 30 frame DVD as DVD's will play back 23.98 frame content. IT actually saves you a bit of space.

Make sure that you are using the progressive RED images through your entire workflow and do not introduce interlaced video at any point.

David



Peace and Love :)
Read my Blog
http://blogs.creativecow.net/DavidBattistella


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Handcranked Films
Re: Creating SD DVD from RED 4K Origination
on Apr 12, 2009 at 10:06:28 pm

Hello David

I believe the big problem I am having is assuming that all NTSC video is 60i and all originating video regardless of its frame rate and resolution needs to be converted to such.

I will make new down-conversions to SD tonight and cross my fingers for much better results.

Watch for "Dead Lonesome" coming to you in Glorious 35mm


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David Battistella
Re: Creating SD DVD from RED 4K Origination
on Apr 12, 2009 at 10:27:05 pm


When you create the new preset make sure the framerate is "same as source"

Author it in DVD SP as you would any other SD DVD

David




Peace and Love :)
Read my Blog
http://blogs.creativecow.net/DavidBattistella


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Steve Wargo
Re: Creating SD DVD from RED 4K Origination
on Apr 13, 2009 at 6:57:45 am

Most Hollywood DVDs are 23.98. DVD players have a pulldown system so they'll play on NTSC televisions. they do this because they can get more on the disc.

Steve Wargo
Tempe, Arizona
It's a dry heat!

Sony HDCAM F-900 & HDW-2000/1 deck
5 Final Cut (not quite PRO) systems
Sony HVR-M25 HDV deck
2-Sony EX-1 HD .


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Noah Kadner
Re: Creating SD DVD from RED 4K Origination
on Apr 13, 2009 at 3:08:48 pm

[Handcranked Films] "
I believe the big problem I am having is assuming that all NTSC video is 60i and all originating video regardless of its frame rate and resolution needs to be converted to such."


Not true- you can easily make a 23.98 native DVD. It will play back at 23.98 on a computer and progressive DVDs/with plasmas or projectors. 60i TVs will add pulldown but it should still look great coming from 4K to SD DVD if all settings are correct.

Noah

Check out my new RED Blog. Unlock the secrets of the DVX100, HVX200 and Apple Color.
Now featuring the Lens Adapter Guidebook, Sony EX1 Guidebook,
DVD Studio Pro and How to Light Interviews.
http://www.callboxlive.com


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Handcranked Films
Re: Creating SD DVD from RED 4K Origination
on Apr 13, 2009 at 4:15:12 pm

I have been instructed to down convert from the R3D RAW to ProRes HQ 1920x1080 23.98 then to 720x280 23.98 (24P) for the final down conversion for DVD Studio Pro.

So far I have the ProRes files ready, but when and where does the final down conversion take place for the 720x480 take place? Should I simply run the ProRes file through Compressor again for the 720x480 then import that final QT file into DVD Studio Pro?

Watch for "Dead Lonesome" coming to you in Glorious 35mm


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Randy Lee
Re: Creating SD DVD from RED 4K Origination
on Apr 13, 2009 at 4:28:26 pm

You should get the best results if you bring your 1920X1080 ProRes file into Compressor and use that to export 720X480 files for DVDSP. The easiest way is to just pull the "90-minute best" preset onto your movie. Having Compressor do the conversion to mpeg-2 will give you a better image quality than what giving DVD SP a Quicktime (and re-processing your footage again) will.

Depending on your familiarity with DVD SP, you should make sure Frame Conversion is turned on and set to Best, and some would advise changing the bitrate to about a 7mb/s CBR, instead of VBR. VBR is what the "90-minute best" preset starts at, and is better if there is quite a bit of action, but if this is time-lapse or other footage similar to Dead Lonesome, changing to CBR should give you a slightly better quality.


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Handcranked Films
Re: Creating SD DVD from RED 4K Origination
on Apr 13, 2009 at 6:05:39 pm

Hello Randy,

Thanks for your kind words. I will give your advice (as well as everybody else') a go tonight.

I have a question though about importing finalized files into DVD SP for re-processing.

You wrote: "The easiest way is to just pull the "90-minute best" preset onto your movie. Having Compressor do the conversion to mpeg-2 will give you a better image quality than what giving DVD SP a Quicktime (and re-processing your footage again) will."

My question and concern is is that if I import my mpeg-2 file into DVD SP, is it necessary for this DVD SP to re-process this file (the mpeg-2)?

Watch for "Dead Lonesome" coming to you in Glorious 35mm


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Randy Lee
Re: Creating SD DVD from RED 4K Origination
on Apr 13, 2009 at 6:21:22 pm

Joe,

DVD SP won't do any reprocessing on the mpeg 2 from Compressor, and Compressor will do a much better job of encoding your video than DVD SP alone will. Basically DVD SP will be re-wrapping the already created mpeg 2 into a format that fits the DVD spec, but the video file will retain the high quality that you get by using Compressor. That's a little over simplified, but the important part is that DVD SP won't do anything to degrade the image quality, and you should get a great looking DVD from your RED footage.

Feel free to post if you run into any more issues, and let us know how everything turns out.


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Uli Plank
Re: Creating SD DVD from RED 4K Origination
on Apr 14, 2009 at 9:01:46 am

You should not need any "Frame Conversion", you'll get the best quality if the footage stays exactly the same FPS as it was shot. Any DVD-Player will take care of 2:3 pulldown for conventional TV.

Regards,

Uli

Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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Randy Lee
Re: Creating SD DVD from RED 4K Origination
on Apr 13, 2009 at 4:11:26 pm

Definitely stay 23.976 throughout, there is no reason for going to 60i. There are so many possible RED workflows that it's hard to give specific advise without knowing all the details of how you shot, system specs, etc.

Let us know how it all works out for you, and if you need any more help. I just watched Dead Lonesome this weekend (a former co-worker of yours has a copy. AMAZING work!) I can't wait to see what else you've got coming.


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Handcranked Films
Re: Creating SD DVD from RED 4K Origination
on Apr 14, 2009 at 4:44:20 pm

I have another question about importing the final mpeg-2 file into DVD SP. It is more of a concern, in the possibility of doing any further unnecessary processing of the file.

If I import the mpeg-2 file into my assets bin then simply drag the asset onto the track, then only final step is the BUILD of the DVD itself. Does anybody see anything in these final steps that create any further processing of the video files?

Thank You

Watch for "Dead Lonesome" coming to you in Glorious 35mm


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Uli Plank
Re: Creating SD DVD from RED 4K Origination
on Apr 14, 2009 at 6:34:23 pm

No. Once you've imported DVD-compatible files into DVDSP, it'll not re-encode them any more. They are just multiplexed during that final stage, i.e,.image and sound get interleaved.


Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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Graeme Nattress
Re: Creating SD DVD from RED 4K Origination
on Apr 15, 2009 at 2:41:53 pm

If you import 24p media into DVD Studio Pro, it will screw it up. You must use compressor on the 24p media to make the correct MPEG2, with pulldown added as flags. Then take this MPEG2 into DVDSP. Then all should work as intended...

Graeme

- http://www.nattress.com - Film Effects and Standards Conversion for FCP


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Handcranked Films
Re: Creating SD DVD from RED 4K Origination
on Apr 15, 2009 at 5:24:56 pm

Hello Graeme

I'm a little confused now. So far everybody has been instructing me to leave the frame rate as 23.976 including the downconversion to mpeg-2 (23.967.) Is this all wrong?

Watch for "Dead Lonesome" coming to you in Glorious 35mm


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Randy Lee
Re: Creating SD DVD from RED 4K Origination
on Apr 15, 2009 at 5:50:54 pm

No, what Graeme meant was that if you bring the 23.976 (aka 24p) Quicktime from Final Cut into DVD SP, it will create a 29.97, poorly downconverted file, which is not what you want.

In order to keep your file at 23.976, and do a better job of downconverting and compressing for DVD, use Compressor to create your 23.976 mpeg 2 file, and bring that into DVD Studio Pro. From this file, DVD SP can create a DVD that will play at 23.976 when possible, and will add a pull-down when needed, just like any Hollywood DVD.


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