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Exporting RED footage to Apple Pro Res via Redcine

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adam rothlein
Exporting RED footage to Apple Pro Res via Redcine
on Mar 31, 2009 at 2:46:02 am

hi all

this is my first venture using the RED, I am trying to figure out the best way to get my footage into final cut pro 6.0.5. It seems that when i log and transfer the footage becomes about 60% darker than how it was when we originally shot it. The only program that seems to open it right is REDCINE, so i thought this would be the best way to export PRO RES files so it looks like it did when we shot it and not a dark mess. Anyone else have a similar problem ever? How long will it take for 4 minutes of footage to export from REDCINE to PRO RES and what are the best settings?

thanks
adam rothlein


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Uli Plank
Re: Exporting RED footage to Apple Pro Res via Redcine
on Mar 31, 2009 at 3:56:48 pm

Don't use REDCine, use REDAlert and Clipfinder (free). It's much faster on a beefy Mac.

Plus, don't judge footage on a computer monitor, use a calibrated monitor via a video I/O card – it'll look very different.

Regards,

Uli

Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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adam rothlein
Re: Exporting RED footage to Apple Pro Res via Redcine
on Mar 31, 2009 at 4:24:35 pm

thanks for the advice. what is a good video i/o card? and how do i know what my real image is being that redcine and final cut see it totally different. Red Alert sees it the same way final cut sees it so is it best to color correct in red alert and then send that out?


thanks again

adam


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gary adcock
Re: Exporting RED footage to Apple Pro Res via Redcine
on Mar 31, 2009 at 6:30:33 pm

[adam rothlein] "ed Alert sees it the same way final cut sees it so is it best to color correct in red alert and then send that out? "

that means that you used RedSpace for your onset monitoring, but your apps are viewing it in the REC709 colorspace and yes it will be darker.

If you are not sure where your content is going - monitor in REC 709 since that is the default for all HD video for broadcast.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Inside look at the IoHD
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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Uli Plank
Re: Exporting RED footage to Apple Pro Res via Redcine
on Mar 31, 2009 at 9:34:15 pm

REDSpace is just trying to make your image look 'nice' on set, but it's not very useful in post.

The two most popular makers of I/O cards are AJA and Blackmagic. Blackmagic is cheaper, but AJA offers excellent support. Another alternative is Matrox MXO, in particular if you are working on a laptop.

FCP is assuming a monitor gamma of 1.8, while Color is assuming 2.2.

Hope this helps,

Uli

Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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D. Gregor Hagey
Re: Exporting RED footage to Apple Pro Res via Redcine
on Apr 1, 2009 at 3:48:40 pm

In my tests I've come to the same conclusions as Autodesk and the best output settings for a Video finish is to use Redspace as the colour space and REC709 as the Gamma correction. REC709 does a terrible job of mapping red values and adds a horrible video quality to the colour. Mind you as a gamma correction Redspace is very punchy and good for onset viewing but throws away too much information for the online. I would highly recommend reading the Autodesk White Paper and also the Red White Paper before starting post.

Please note that there is a typo in the Autodesk White paper if you're using Redcine to output. Under Video Deliverable the Brightness parameter recommendation for Redcine. is 25, but it should be .25.
Also, under Film Deliverable the Exposure parameter is recommended to be -2 for Redcine, but it should be -.2.

http://images.autodesk.com/adsk/file...whitepaper.pdf

Please bear in mind that these values are only starting points and every shot should be evaluated individually with the Histogram (however quickly).



Gregor


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gary adcock
Re: Exporting RED footage to Apple Pro Res via Redcine
on Apr 1, 2009 at 5:21:53 pm

[D. Gregor Hagey] "In my tests I've come to the same conclusions as Autodesk and the best output settings for a Video finish is to use Redspace as the colour space and REC709 as the Gamma correction. "

Every workflow and post path is different.

With this set up how are you monitoring the content - over HDSDI the content is almost always being viewed on a display that is set up to monitor as REC 709 as the DEFAULT- so without specific parameters on monitoring that path is not available to all but the high end guys that can monitor outside of REC 709.

Finishing in this manner could cause disastrous results for a broadcast HD or SD deliverable for someone not aware that his monitoring setup is somewhat skewed towards a filmout when they really need to be delivering to something else.

[D. Gregor Hagey] "REC709 does a terrible job of mapping red values and adds a horrible video quality to the colour."

I would disagree with a statement this broad as a matter of course,

Everything broadcast in HD has to conform to the REC 709 colorspace as it is defined in the specs for SMPTE formats that are covered -259/292/296.





the original post was on why the content was so dark after conversion to ProRes.

The answer is - "you were looking at REDSPACE" - which I guess to be the viewing colorspace before the conversion.

FCP in Log and transfer defaults to REC 709 for the conversions, just like the monitors do, hence the images were darker than the view expected based on what they were looking at because the apps are converting the files in a manner that you are not defining correctly for your project.






gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Inside look at the IoHD
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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D. Gregor Hagey
Re: Exporting RED footage to Apple Pro Res via Redcine
on Apr 1, 2009 at 5:55:55 pm

Gary I'm speaking very specifically about Redcine, Red Alert and Red Rushes. I am not crtiticising REC709 as a standard (at this time). When transcoding r3ds with Redspace set as your colour space it will result in more natural looking colours then the REC709 setting. These colours do not change when viewed on an HD monitor as they are not out of gamut. This is what is recommended by Autodesk too.

In terms of monitoring I personally calibrate my cinema displays with Color Eyes and the DTP94 and have had very good results. However, Redcine is not the program for critical evaluation of the image and should be used only to get the picture in the ballpark for the online. As you know transcoding a flatter image is best to give the colourist the most amount of control in whatever program a project is finishing on. Redcine is more then capable of providing a good enough image to perform this task.

Gregor


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David Battistella
Re: Exporting RED footage to Apple Pro Res via Redcine
on Apr 1, 2009 at 6:34:00 pm


I am with you on this Gregor. I find that REDSPACE offers the most consistent WYSIWYG images from the RED. Day in. Day out. Week in Week out. RED's way of deciphering REC709 is not as pleasing as REDSPACE and the REC709 Spec (while a standard) can change drastically between manufacturers.

I believe RED recommends REDSPACE as well.

David




Peace and Love :)
Read my Blog
http://blogs.creativecow.net/DavidBattistella


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gary adcock
Re: Exporting RED footage to Apple Pro Res via Redcine
on Apr 1, 2009 at 7:59:45 pm

[David Battistella] "I believe RED recommends REDSPACE as well. "

I never said not to use RedSpace or that I somehow do not use it.


I said that Gregor's answer was not specific enough in context to be of use to the original posting, and that without understanding how the video was viewed could cause issues. I have worked on somewhere around 150 Red jobs, for everything from just testing all the way through big budget name productions that ended in a real honest filmout.

Secondly
I cannot and will NOT EVER recommend anyone to use a computer monitor for video production and grading. the TFT displays that apple uses are not close in colorimetry or gamma to be a true production monitor.

So you set up with your probe- what was the native display set at for refresh?
What are your programing for gamma and knee on the display?
what is the decay set at?
are you looking at P or PsF content.

Some Video hardware cards force some of these issues due the requirements of the SMPTE standards for output and that is not something that can be seen on a cinema display over DVI.

Oh...
one other thing - did I mention that your Cinema Display is only 8bit.

that's all the data the DVI signal carries....





gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Inside look at the IoHD
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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Uli Plank
Re: Exporting RED footage to Apple Pro Res via Redcine
on Apr 1, 2009 at 9:36:47 pm

"that's all the data the DVI signal carries.... "

And even less if you calibrate the LUT in the computer instead of a hardware LUT in a professional display…

Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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David Battistella
Re: Exporting RED footage to Apple Pro Res via Redcine
on Apr 2, 2009 at 2:38:54 am

[gary adcock] "[David Battistella] "I believe RED recommends REDSPACE as well. "

I never said not to use RedSpace or that I somehow do not use it. "



At what point was I inferring this toward you?

Sit back in the seat there a bit Gary. You love to jump all over my posts.

I don't care for the cock swinging on 150 RED jobs etc., and the filmout comments are really unnecessary. While Gregor and I know each other professionally, I can say that we have done independent testing (including filmouts). Not sure what an illegitimate filmout is but you've been to Toronto and you know this is a city full of working professionals and great labs.

Back up.
Peace.

David




Peace and Love :)
Read my Blog
http://blogs.creativecow.net/DavidBattistella


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gary adcock
Re: Exporting RED footage to Apple Pro Res via Redcine
on Apr 2, 2009 at 11:00:55 am

[gary adcock] "I said that Gregor's answer was not specific enough in context to be of use to the original posting, and that without understanding how the video was viewed could cause issues. "


Wow david.
I didn't even mention you and for some reason you assume that I was attacking you?

reread my post. your response has little to do with the subject or the questions.

Once again how does making this personal answer the original poster question?

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Inside look at the IoHD
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




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David Battistella
Re: Exporting RED footage to Apple Pro Res via Redcine
on Apr 2, 2009 at 12:33:33 pm



Agreed.

David



Peace and Love :)
Read my Blog
http://blogs.creativecow.net/DavidBattistella


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Will Wagner
Re: Exporting RED footage to Apple Pro Res via Redcine
on Apr 1, 2009 at 11:01:17 am

Wow - some big concepts being tossed around in this thread.

You are asking about a couple of things - the big picture is what should be your FCP workflow? The other things are the details. So:

1 - Does changing the color space on the camera affects your image. It does not - it only affects the in-camera meters and scopes. REC 709 is a generic tv broadcast space and will provide a good basic look for on-set viewing. You will need to change it if you want the meters and scopes to provide the greater latitude of REDCODE, but then don't let the image throw you. Remember the Red is capturing RAW data so you can do anything you want in-camera and change it in post.

2 - trans-coding -- you want to use log and transfer - not log and capture. Make sure you have all the pieces upgraded to their most recent versions and the additional plugins from Red. Then when you work in final cut, you can use the actual RAW files. This is very different from the QT proxies that are created when you shoot. By using the log and transfer this way - you can work with native 4K files in FCP, and use all the goodies of the round-trip workflow ie. - export to Color or Motion or Shake and back in again. And if you need to fix a shot on a per-shot basis you always have access to Red Alert and Redcine and the other tools.

3 - The graphics hardware. There is no right answer - but there are basically only two answers - both were listed above. Blackmagic and AJA compete for the mac video market and both are fine. At any given time one may have some slight feature the other doesn't. Just check both websites, check your price range, and pick one - both are fine.

Finally, at the risk of being a litte spammy, but I believe it to be relevant, check out http://opticalvelocity.com/RED+Camera+Manual+User+Help+Guide

Will Wagner, ISC
IATSE Local 600
DIT - Digital Imaging Tech
http://opticalvelocity.com/Will+Wagner


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Petter Brox
Re: Exporting RED footage to Apple Pro Res via Redcine
on Apr 2, 2009 at 12:42:33 pm

"It seems that when i log and transfer the footage becomes about 60% darker than how it was when we originally shot it."

Did you expose at 800 ASA? Log & Transfer sets everything to 320 ASA, so this would make your clip look 1 1/3 stop too dark (66%). You should rather use RedAlert or RedRushes.
"How long will it take for 4 minutes of footage to export from REDCINE to PRO RES and what are the best settings"?

It depends on your system and your settings. On a MacBook Pro 2.2GHz Core 2 Duo with 3GB RAM it takes about 1 second per frame with Debayer quality set to "Half High".

Petter Brox
Spain


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Will Wagner
Re: Exporting RED footage to Apple Pro Res via Redcine
on Apr 2, 2009 at 6:07:49 pm

I am still new to this trying to be a DIT online thing, so I haven't figured out all the clues in questions yet. But it sounds like you have a good answer here with the ASA stuff.

If you shot at 320 (Red's default) and you are getting a color shift when you bring it in - there are 2 things probably affecting it.

1 - Make sure you have chosen REDCODE for the codec in the Sequence setting.

2 - The second factor is more general. It goes back to the idea that the Red records RAW. This is very different from any other medium. It means that all the ASA info, brightness, color settings and all that - when they are used in the camera are NOT applied to the RAW footage.

There are a few ways to get back to that look. If you need to re-create it exactly you'll need to do that outside of FCP, in either RedCine or RedAlert or Scratch - these programs have access to the metadata.

If you are completely happy with the QT proxies, you can just use QT pro or compressor or something like that to transcode them to ProRes or whatever else you want and then just treat them like the stuff you're probably used to working with.

Finally, and this is my preferred method - edit it as you normally would in FCP then do the basic color correction in FCP. You can look at any clip in RedAlert to see what the meta info was - that will tell you if there is some basic setting that needs to go on every clip ie. the ASA. If there is no obvious thing like that - then just do your normal color correction workflow. If you use Color - you can go round trip into and out of FCP to Color. Same with Shake or Motion or even Photoshop. You can also use RedAlert or RedCine on a per shot basis. If there is a particularly tricky shot that FCP is struggling with - just grab that .R3D clip from the finder, fix it in one of the other programs and save it again. Then just re-load the fixed clip into your timeline.

This last method is not nearly as precise as some of the other real color correction systems, and I'm sure there are experts here who would say this is amateur - but given that this is a first project on the Red and these decisions weren't made by some higher power (like HBO or something telling you what you need to do) I'm betting that you will be thrilled with how easy this is and you can laugh at all the "pros" when you are walking around with a 4K master in a few hours when they're waiting a day to work in HD.

I hope this helps.



Will Wagner, ISC
IATSE Local 600
DIT - Digital Imaging Tech
http://opticalvelocity.com/Will+Wagner


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Oliver Peters
Re: Exporting RED footage to Apple Pro Res via Redcine
on Apr 4, 2009 at 3:11:55 am

Adam,

I recently finished a set of spots that were shot on RED and decided to post a rather lengthy recap on my blog. This might be helpful to you:

http://digitalfilms.wordpress.com

Go to the first post.

Sincerely,
Oliver

Oliver Peters Post Production Services, LLC
Orlando, FL
http://www.oliverpeters.com


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