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24 fps to 23.976 fps HELP!

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Je Moore
24 fps to 23.976 fps HELP!
on Mar 6, 2009 at 2:31:28 am

90 min feature edited with _M proxies.

I need to conform (not sure if that is the right term here) from 24 fps, this is what film was shot at, to 23.976.

My color house is asking for 23.976 DPX, which I can do out of REDcine, but I would also like sound, music and effects houses working at the same frame rate....

I am sure that this is going to effect audio sync and who knows what else....

Anyone had to do this?


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Stuart Ferreyra
Re: 24 fps to 23.976 fps HELP!
on Mar 6, 2009 at 2:43:17 am

[Je Moore] "My color house is asking for 23.976 DPX"
Really? Why can't they work on 24?
Are you going out to film or tape?

Stuart Ferreyra
Timecode Multimedia
Co-owner / Colorist / Consultant

- Affordable SD & HD Tape Captures and Tape Outputs
- SD & HD Tape Duplication, Up / Down Conversions
- Visit Stuart's studio on the web


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Je Moore
Re: 24 fps to 23.976 fps HELP!
on Mar 6, 2009 at 2:56:14 am

The "plan" is to go to HDCAM SR for festival screening(s) then *hopefully to film later....

From everything I am finding... camera guys should have shot this @ 23.976 (23.98)?

Color house said that this "should" be at 23.976, something about not being able to see on Sony CRT....

My thoughts were that I could stay at 24fps all the way through post, then do a conversion of the master... but then again I am far from an expert on any of this...

thanks in advance



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Stuart Ferreyra
Re: 24 fps to 23.976 fps HELP!
on Mar 6, 2009 at 8:00:20 pm

I recently worked on 10 ours of a period piece footage shot on RED at 24fps. We did the entire conform at 24, color corrected in Color at 24 and output to HDCam SR at 24. We did not changed the integrity of the 24 shoot.

With this workflow we will be able to go to film, tape, broadcast, DVDs etc, etc. In this case, though, the online and finishing will be done for broadcast. We'll use the HDCam SR with the optional pull-down card and online the entire show at 1080i / 59.94.

I really don't understand why your post house is asking you to deliver a 23.98 from the true 24. If you are around L.A. and have more questions, please call me at anytime.

Stuart Ferreyra
Timecode Multimedia
Co-owner / Colorist / Consultant

- Affordable SD & HD Tape Captures and Tape Outputs
- SD & HD Tape Duplication, Up / Down Conversions
- Visit Stuart's studio on the web


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Russell Lasson
Re: 24 fps to 23.976 fps HELP!
on Mar 6, 2009 at 8:41:46 pm

Try this:

1. Add two-pops to the beginning and the end of the film
2. Export a self-contained quicktime file
3. Open the file in Cinema Tools and conform the file to 23.98
4. Bring the 23.98 file back into FCP and create a new sequence using the clip settings
5. Now paste all of the production audio from the 24P sequence into the 23.98 sequence
6. Check to see if the two-pops still line up

I it still lines up, then just export the references for the audio/music guys from this timeline and everything should still line up.

I wouldn't be overly concerned about this. 23.976 vs. 24 frame drift problems amount to one frame about every 46 seconds. As long as the whole mix is consistent, simply retiming the audio by .001% will fix any issue that you might have.

-Russ

Russell Lasson
Universal Post
Ridgeline Digital Cinema Mastering
Salt Lake City, UT


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Russell Lasson
Re: 24 fps to 23.976 fps HELP!
on Mar 6, 2009 at 3:38:48 am

What are you finishing to? (and who's going to match the audio up)

-Russ

Russell Lasson
Universal Post
Ridgeline Digital Cinema Mastering
Salt Lake City, UT


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John Sprung
Re: 24 fps to 23.976 fps HELP!
on Mar 6, 2009 at 11:38:33 pm

Frames are frames. Whether you call it 24.000 or 23.976, your show consists of exactly the same number of exactly the same frames. The only difference is how fast you play them out.

Time code is time code in the 24/23.976 world. There is no drop frame, everything is non-drop. (There are no practical dropping algorithms here like there are for 30/29.97.) So, there's only one way to put TC numbers on your frames, provided that you start picture at the traditional hour one straight up. As long as your sound guys work to those same numbers, you'll be in sync.

With .DPX, every frame is its own separate file. It's more like a box of slides than a roll of film. It doesn't in any real sense have a constrained built-in speed like video tape formats do.

It sounds like you might have talked to a scheduler or client services person. Go back to that facility and ask to talk to their engineers.




-- J.S.





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John Moore
Re: 24 fps to 23.976 fps HELP!
on Mar 12, 2009 at 5:19:05 pm

JS - frames are frames... Did a test and everything is fine. Thanks fo much for all the input from everyone. I appreciate it!

Best,

John

I have a pool and a pond


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