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kaylamaureen
Red Camera Workflow for Thesis Project!
on Sep 16, 2007 at 10:35:17 pm

Hello all. I am the editor of a team that is planning to shoot on the Red camera for our thesis film. My school, only has Avid. I plan to test the camera and how the post workflow works for both Avid and FCP (in some hope they will let me use it).

My questions are:

What format of files would I need to be able to take them into Avid Media Composer? Is it possible yet to use Avid with Red footage? How detailed is the process to import?

Also, if I were to use FCP - which has to be an easier workflow - Would my 2.16 Ghz Intel Core 2 Duo 24" iMac, with 2gb ram, grant me enough power to edit OFFLINE for a 20minute project?

My team isn't using the Red camera primarily to finish on 4K (although having the option is nice) but for other aesthetic reasons. We will plan to finish on HD Cam for the school's requirements. So I am wondering if my system can do what I will need it to.

Side question: Is there a Red camera deck that I could use on the set to layoff the imported footage from FCP to HD Cam? (I know, why would I want to do that... but to appease the school it may be my only option)

Any help, references, sites would be much appreciated.
Thank you very much.


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gary adcock
Re: Red Camera Workflow for Thesis Project!
on Sep 17, 2007 at 1:04:14 am

[kaylamaureen] "Is it possible yet to use Avid with Red footage?"

Avid chose not to play with RED. currently only FCP and Assimilate support REDcode.




gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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Bob Zelin
Re: Red Camera Workflow for Thesis Project!
on Sep 17, 2007 at 1:17:43 am

Kaylamaureen,
I apologize in advance for using your post to make jokes, but I just can't help it. You are asking excellent questions. You might as well ignore my comments below (but everyone else should absolutely read them !).


Kayla writes -
I am the editor of a team that is planning to shoot on the Red camera for our thesis film. My school, only has Avid. I plan to test the camera and how the post workflow works for both Avid and FCP (in some hope they will let me use it).

REPLY - baby, good luck, because when you get a straight answer, you better let us know !

Kayla writes -
My questions are:

What format of files would I need to be able to take them into Avid Media Composer? Is it possible yet to use Avid with Red footage? How detailed is the process to import?

REPLY -
from Reduser.net -
I will keep the forum updated as to Avid workflows when tested and available - keep in mind that the native RED format is currently only available to Apple and Assimilate so the transcode to a DNxHD proxy via the Avid QuickTime codecs will be the first one available to users. But as mentioned, getting the metadata will be important for those needing to go back to the native 4K files in addition to those satisfied with HD and SD deliveries.
Just like with film, you never know when you might need to go back to the original files, so having the metadata to do so is much more reassuring.

SO what does this mean - it means YOU AIN'T EDITING RED FOOTAGE ON AN AVID ANYTIME SOON. Gee, I bet your school has no plans for Assimlate Scratch anytime soon, either. (Neither do we).





Kayla writes -

Also, if I were to use FCP - which has to be an easier workflow - Would my 2.16 Ghz Intel Core 2 Duo 24" iMac, with 2gb ram, grant me enough power to edit OFFLINE for a 20minute project?


REPLY -
from Reduser.net
There are only four applications that understand R3D files natively:

REDAlert
REDCINE
Final Cut Pro
SCRATCH

REDAlert and REDCINE are apps that RED makes that ship with the camera.
They each have different purposes. REDAlert is a great app that allows you
tons of options for quickly looking at one shot, modifying it, and outputting it.
REDCINE is a fuller tool for organizing an entire CF of footage,
moving color settings back and forth between the camera and post, and doing batch exports.

Final Cut Pro is native editorial at 1K and 2K.
SCRATCH is native finishing at 1K, 2K, and 4K.

So yesterday, we did the following:

1) Shoot outside
2) Take CF out of camera, and put it in CF reader attached to a Mac Tower
3) Open shots in REDAlert to take a look
4) Export Quicktime Reference at 1K out of RED Alert. Remember this is QT Ref, so that is an instantaneous process.
5) Open Quicktime in Final Cut Studio 2. This is not a beta version - this is what is shipping now.
6) Cut a small sequence.
7) Export EDL out of FCP
8) Run XP in Bootcamp mode.
9) Launch SCRATCH
10) Import EDL and native R3D files (no transcode)
11) Conform and start 4K DI and finishing.

It works, and it works today.

MY REPLY - so you ain't shooting with something like a P2 card, and instantly importing your footage into FCP in 2 seconds. It's an ordeal, as described above.



Kayla writes -

My team isn't using the Red camera primarily to finish on 4K (although having the option is nice) but for other aesthetic reasons. We will plan to finish on HD Cam for the school's requirements. So I am wondering if my system can do what I will need it to.

REPLY - No, you will be over your head (everyone is over their head - the actual workflow is just being figured out now by the actual owners, and so far, it ain't easy). So far, working in HDCam 23.98 is a "walk in the park" compared to RedAlert, and REDCine. But this is my lack of experience talking (and everyone's lack of experience).


KAYLA writes -
Side question: Is there a Red camera deck that I could use on the set to layoff the imported footage from FCP to HD Cam? (I know, why would I want to do that... but to appease the school it may be my only option)

REPLY - oh ho ho ho ho ho ho !!!!!!! What a funny question. You want to record on a NORMAL VTR or have a 4K Camera deck
like the Keisoku Giken 4K video disk recorder, that you can quickly get into your FCP or AVID application ? Kayla, do you know that you can't record audio right now ?


BIG REPLY - Kayla's post of questions is not a joke. Her thesis could potentially become "idiots guide on how to actually use the RED Camera", which would be the most popular book of 2008 (if she didn't die in the process of writing it). The only problem Kayla, is that no one can accurately answer your questions right now. Everyone is JUST FIGURING THIS OUT FOR THE FIRST TIME right now. If you can document this, and cut out all the B.S. and mis-information, you will do very well for yourself.

Bob Zelin


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donatello
Re: Red Camera Workflow for Thesis Project!
on Sep 17, 2007 at 3:40:47 am

"What format of files would I need to be able to take them into Avid Media Composer? Is it possible yet to use Avid with Red footage? How detailed is the process to import? "

TODAY ...
find a friend or local production house with a intel Mac - install Red Alert - load in your Red Raw clips .. CC a little .. export using a codec that Avid understands (perhaps DNxHD codec ?Avid codec's are free to download- install on the Avid computer) ...


"if I were to use FCP - which has to be an easier workflow - Would my 2.16 Ghz Intel Core 2 Duo 24" iMac, with 2gb ram, grant me enough power to edit OFFLINE for a 20minute project?"

should be enough power editing low res files .. might be OK with HD ??? ...

once REDcine is released then the process of creating low res proxy's and going back to the 4k files will be much easier ..

also call local production/post houses in your area and ask them questions - they will not have the answers ( though some will in LA area ) and i think many will be more them willing to help you out becuase they want to try out their workflow and to see RED clips ... i'm in SF area and every company i have called wants to check out RED clips ..

from what i saw of the Silerado seminar on friday .. they shot on RED , edited in FCP , used Color to CC all within 48hrs ..
i think 20 min can be done TODAY ..

link to the Silverado short ...






also the only poster here that has edited RED is Silverado ... IMO go to http://www.REDusers.net site and post your questions to those persons that are editing RED clips TODAY ... it might be awhile before we start hearing of 1st persons editing RED files here ??





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Blub06
Re: Red Camera Workflow for Thesis Project!
on Sep 17, 2007 at 4:15:57 pm

it might be awhile before we start hearing of 1st persons editing RED files here ??


Translation...We (the Red people) don't like the people here, they didn't drink the Red CoolAid and ask too many hard questions...

I figured this out by importing it with Red Alert doing some CC then exporting an XML rebooting then sucking in the XML reconnecting to the original post, and hitting the render all thing....

Chris


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gary adcock
Re: Red Camera Workflow for Thesis Project!
on Sep 17, 2007 at 5:27:12 pm

[Blub06] ".We (the Red people) don't like the people here, they didn't drink the Red CoolAid and ask too many hard questions"

Well I don't know anything about hard questions here on the Cow, I have not seen any/

but the other comments are truer than not.





gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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gary adcock
Re: Red Camera Workflow for Thesis Project!
on Sep 17, 2007 at 4:24:05 pm

[donatello] "also the only poster here that has edited RED is Silverado ... IMO go to http://www.REDusers.net site and post your questions to those persons that are editing RED clips TODAY ... it might be awhile before we start hearing of 1st persons editing RED files here ?? "

your assumption is incorrect, I have worked with RED footage, so someone here other than Silverado has worked with this content.


The reality today is that this is ONLY a 4K camera / workflow today, and work at that level cannot be done with any ease on an imac - get real.

The point that everyone ignores is that at somepoint the files need to be rendered to an industry standard for delivery- that means DPX or QT. The assimilate conversion takes 10 seconds or so per frame and 24fps.

Thats 4 minutes of render per second of content.
you do the math

When you are referring to monitoring, the only 4K workflows that exist are on expensive hardware. Baselight, Scratch, Pablo and Lustre are the only 4K finishing solutions on the market, there is no way to look at this in anything larger that 2048x1080 in FCP.

If you cannot do HD on an Imac (Only HDV is supported by apple) how is anyone going to be able to do 4K on one?

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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donatello
Re: Red Camera Workflow for Thesis Project!
on Sep 17, 2007 at 5:34:48 pm

"Translation...We (the Red people) don't like the people here, they didn't drink the Red CoolAid and ask too many hard questions... "

translation is - i believe only ONE owner has posted here -
there are 51 cameras in owners hands ... i would think once there are 300-400 there will be 1st persons reports ..it sounds like the poster needs info now to make a decision ...

"The reality today is that this is ONLY a 4K camera / workflow today, and work at that level cannot be done with any ease on an imac - get real. "


the original poster ..
"My team isn't using the Red camera primarily to finish on 4K (although having the option is nice) but for other aesthetic reasons. We will plan to finish on HD Cam for the school's requirements"

the poster clearly stated they would finish HD not 4k ..

today the camera shoots 4k - how do you come up with 4k is the only workflow - get real !!


"Translation...We (the Red people) don't like the people here,"

on 2nd thought ...you are certainly not very inviting group ... you make jokes of the person ( " apologize in advance for using your post to make jokes") post ... you imply that the only way to work with a 4k camera is with 4k workflow ...

you actually provided no help to the poster ...
one states they have edited RED clips and provides no direction to the poster other then a iMac can't do 4k workflow and monitoring 4k is expensive ...

so why are you here ?









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gary adcock
Re: Red Camera Workflow for Thesis Project!
on Sep 17, 2007 at 7:06:23 pm

[donatello] "..it sounds like the poster needs info now to make a decision ..."

if they are not on the RED list NOW, they are looking at 12-18 months before their camera ships, I am being a realist, I work in 2k and larger files now, I understand the needs and requirements to handle this content.

"he poster clearly stated they would finish HD not 4k .. "

that ignores the the current facts - the camera is only outputting 4K at this time, the HDMI is available for monitoring, but there is not any HD workflow with this camera today or even next week, not without opening the 4K content and converting it.

" you imply that the only way to work with a 4k camera is with 4k workflow ... "
that is your impression, I just said you could not do it on an imac, if that was posted on the red forum they would get the same answers there also.

"one states they have edited RED clips and provides no direction to the poster other then a iMac can't do 4k workflow and monitoring 4k is expensive ... "

that was me, and I am a realist. The poster has no idea of what is involved with the process that they are attempting to work with. Donatello you seem to be fixated that RED somehow means that you can though out all of the rules or that you have some secret that all of that power can be handled without the required tools that are needed for such a professional tool.

[donatello] "so why are you here ? "

to set the record straight, to keep people properly informed, not to blindly claim that something can be do when in reality, even elemental HD editing is not supported in FCP on iMacs, the ability to do 4K is really fairly slim, but you claim that it will work.

I have cut Redcode on my intel laptop, on an external sata array, it was functional but not very fast, I would not want to cut that same content on a lesser powered iMac. FYI- how are they going to lay that final project to HDCAM from an imac? thought of that?

You assume that I have some agenda against RED. I do not, on the contrary I spent a good amount of time at IBC last week talking/ hanging out with my friends at RED, I am working on developing a tool to work with the RED One system, and if I screw up here my friends at RED correct me



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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donatello
Re: Red Camera Workflow for Thesis Project!
on Sep 17, 2007 at 8:05:36 pm

do you read the POST ?
the person said they were planning to shoot on a RED - not buy a RED - if you plan to shoot on a F23 should i assume you bought it ?

how do they get their hands on a RED ?
they call somebody that has one -
i received a call from some graduates - we talked and
i offered my RED to shoot their thesis project ( their DP) if it arrives in time - currently they are planning to use a HVX200 but if it arrives in time they will use a RED for 4 days ...

one doesn't need to cut 2/4k files in 2/4k res ...what about low res files ?

... IF the only way to edit the 4k files on a iMac or any other platform is to render them out to a smaller size then that is a option - which the poster can decide if that is the route they want to take ... how about suggesting a few solutions ...

i don't assume you have any agenda - i do assume you are here to HELP others ...

"even elemental HD editing is not supported in FCP "

i don't use final cut ... so i would look into it more if i had to edit HD on FCP ( as in hire somebody) ...however i was recently in Video arts in SF with 2k scan files and FCP was doing so-so - it did have to render to go out to HD projection ..converting to ProRes codec worked much better .. it does appear that apple does advertise HD editing with FCP ? but again i would look into it based on your statement just to make sure ...


"the ability to do 4K is really fairly slim, but you claim that it will work. "

you don't seem to READ post - i never said they could edit 4k on a iMac

i said
"should be enough power editing low res files .. might be OK with HD ???"


now i can see where your NEEDS are different from the students needs ... you may need RT everything, you're working with a client and you don't have time for any experimenting /unknowns ..

the student ( or any no-lo budget) probably doesn't have the $$ so if they want to do X then they just might have to do some rendering over night , over the weekend ... they'll do whatever it takes to get there ... i have found students like experimenting and will do work arounds ...

" how are they going to lay that final project to HDCAM from an imac? thought of that? ""

why don't you come up with a few suggestions ..

perhaps they could render the final using X codec ( proRes??) ? what about the Aja i/o ? or some other unit ?
or they load their rendered clip on a external HD and take it to a post house that passes it to HDcam ? just seems like there's more then one way to get it to HDcam ...basically they ASK for some help - many production/post production houses are more them willing to help students...
if those Grad students had not called me would they have a maybe chance to shoot on RED ?







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Bob Zelin
Re: Red Camera Workflow for Thesis Project!
on Sep 17, 2007 at 10:06:27 pm

Donatello -
I don't know who you are, but I cannot think of anything positive to say about you at this moment. Everyone on this list is VERY interested in RED. Everyone on this list can AFFORD to buy a RED camera package, and many already have other hi end HD cameras. I can assure you that I read Reduser.net EVERY DAY to see updates and progress, and I can assure you that I will ABSOLUTELY be building editing systems that support 4K workflow, which include RED footage.

If you think that the RED camera is ready for a bunch of students to start shooting with, then you are a fool. This is a new product, with uncertain workflow - and workflow that is difficult at best. Think, Donatello, about "simple" 23.98 footage from an conventional HD camera - you just don't pop the tape into your VTR, and deliver your project. There is a WORKFLOW - frame rate conversion, possible cross conversion, downconversion for delivery. LOTS OF STUFF. Now, add RED raw data 4K footage, with AVID and FCP products not designed for this application. You think this is for a student - THIS IS WORKFLOW THAT IS CONFUSING TO EVERYONE ON THIS LIST. The steps are NOT LAYED OUT on reduser.net. They are certainly not layed out by you, on it's EXACT USE.

Creative Cow is a great forum, as it is not based on a company and their own public relations. It is an independent forum for all kinds of products, and when there are issues, this is where people come to figure out how to "do it".

I DO NOT SEE ANYONE on reduser.net asking the simple questions like "I have my FCP system with my AJA Kona 3 card - how do I get my footage into this thing - do i have to render the 4K files first with one of the RED utilities ? ".

Lucas Wilson at Assimilate Scratch has posted a sample workflow, but it is not detailed, and NO ONE HAS ASKED QUESTIONS !!!!!! Why is that Donatello ? I want EXACT DETAILS, and I dont' see them on reduser.net. BUT I bet we will see them on THIS FORUM.

Long live Creative Cow.

Bob Zelin


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donatello
Re: Red Camera Workflow for Thesis Project!
on Sep 18, 2007 at 3:41:31 am

silverado put together a short in a few days using FCP & color - so the tools are there for those that want to give it a go ... there are owners at Reduser that have edited music video's , commercials, shorts ... they do hit bumps and they find work arounds ...

come on- 23.976 has been with us for years - where's the problem? this is NOT taped based to get it into your NLE ..
the only conversion will be going back out at 29.97 to HDcam -it's done every day ...

again they are not finishing or editing at 4k ... they are editing HD or lower .. so today they would take the clips into Red alert and render out to a 23.976 HD/or lower clip ...well actually the students that might use my RED have found a local post house that will take the files in on their Scratch system ( free) - again resouceful students ...

"this is where people come to figure out how to "do it"."

for any given project there's more then one workflow ..


Silverado might make the RED raw files available for down load from their short film ... RED has said that Redcine should be available for download in a few weeks ....this could be a chance for one to test how it all works on their system ...

"DO NOT SEE ANYONE on reduser.net asking the simple questions like "I have my FCP system with my AJA Kona 3 card - how do I get my footage into this thing "

you're at RED user everyday checking - so why don't you ASK that question ?
based on attending Silverado siminar currently you take the raw files into RED alert ( mac only) and render out to a file your NLE understands - for FCP perhaps HD proRes ? or into a file that is native to kona ?
you want me to go over there and ask your question ?

"THIS IS WORKFLOW THAT IS CONFUSING TO EVERYONE ON THIS LIST"

OK where's this list ? who's on the list ? how does one get on the list ? are you guys like the ocean 11's gang or the Rat pack ? SO, you all can afford RED's ( which i think most here says is really in the 60-80K + range) ..hummmm any plans to go to Vegas soon to get a fresh supply of $$$ ? any plans to expand to say a oceans 12 gang ?

if you are in the SF area - i'll be ( well not me, others ) will be testing workflow on different platforms/NLE's at different production/post houses in Nov... you are welcome to drop by ... i'll be in LA for a week end of October with either my RED or a friends RED letting a few DP's friends test it - depending on the set - others might be able to attend ?

also you might keep a eye on RPMpost.com - they will be trying to put together workshop on RED & Workflow ( they have both FCP & Scratch) ... you could also contact them to ask them about workflow as they have worked on RED clips in the past ... also they have been having screening of the RED /peter jackson short on their 2k barco on some saturdays.


currently you might have to search for EXACT answers but they are out there ... or wait several months for it all to settle down ... let the others do the testing/experiments ...










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donatello
Re: Red Camera Workflow for Thesis Project!
on Sep 18, 2007 at 3:11:28 pm

"I have my FCP system with my AJA Kona 3 card - how do I get my footage into this thing - do i have to render the 4K files first with one of the RED utilities ? ".

i just noticed that Silverado edited the short shot with RED
with similar Mac system ...

"This was posted on FCS 2, Mac Pro with 8 Gb, AJA Kona 3, REDAlert, and an eCinema DCM23 was used for critical color."

if you really want the exact details - i would start with Silverado ...



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gary adcock
Re: Red Camera Workflow for Thesis Project!
on Sep 19, 2007 at 11:56:37 am

[donatello] "if you really want the exact details - i would start with Silverado ..."

I would think that there are better resources than Silverado.

IF you want real answers I would seek out some of the Rental Houses that have experience in HD and Film workflows with highend cameras.
Rental houses like Fletcher Chicago, Abel Cine, Clairmont Camera, Oppenheimer Cine are facilities that are familiar to DP's that work with Film tools, they will have PL mount lenses and the monitor the content.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows


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Blub06
Re: Red Camera Workflow for Thesis Project!
on Sep 19, 2007 at 2:33:41 pm

Don't for get my fav, CSC in NYC owned by Arri!

Chris


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Steve Mydelski
Re: Red Camera Workflow for Thesis Project!
on Sep 21, 2007 at 2:32:16 pm

I'm gonna chime in here and try to get this to center.

I don't think anyone would argue that RED produces beautiful images and has fantastic potential. Unfortunately because of the hype surrounding the cam's relatively low cost people have forgotten the second half of the equation.

The post workflow right now is not near flushed out. Just not having HD SDI out enabled from the cam currently is an issue. So the only option is to have massive 4K res files on CF cards and use QT ref files to cut. The render time alone that adds to even export to a file is rough. That also doesn't account for outputting to a delivery format which at the least is going to need an HD SDI card output. There are a lot of answers to questions and upgrades that still needs to be delivered.

If you're an indie film maker and just want to shoot with RED to get familiar with it or just to say"I shot with RED" that's cool. But if you have to shoot a project for delivery, a paid gig, or something you're going to be graded on I would wait for these early users to go through the learning curve.


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Blub06
Re: Red Camera Workflow for Thesis Project!
on Sep 21, 2007 at 3:37:11 pm

The truth is, most people simply have never seen anything other then some stills from this camera. I for one do not think the images from this camera are fantastic or great or anything other then good looking stills.

I have no idea what the camera can do visually. The image quality is a mystery and will remain one for some time. In the next year I think the thing will have more than enough opportunity to win us all over, if it does, great, but I reserve judgment on the quality of its image for that time I actually see some moving vid from it.

There are many things I would like to see, one is how it handles highlights. How about how it handles shadows? What about the way it deals with complex images like looking up at a tree with all of its branches full of leafs back lite by the sun? How about fast motion what does that look like? What if its direct sun shine outside, super bright, yet we are inside in a dark room with a window looking out at a bright view (think Western movie) what does that look like? How about imagining a French film shot inside at night with just gas lamps or candles, your typical low light mood thing with the aperture all the way open, what would that look like?

The quality of the image remains a mystery and will continue to remain one until we see actual footage. I don't trust anyone else's eyes but my own. No camera is what it is based on PR and those that buy into an idea that seems hard wired into our brains (theres always something better), this camera is what it is, nothing more nothing less. Does it make great images? I have no idea.

Chris


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Kerry Brown
Re: Red Camera Workflow for Thesis Project!
on Sep 21, 2007 at 8:08:39 pm

[Blub06] "I have no idea what the camera can do visually. The image quality is a mystery and will remain one for some time."

Go here and enjoy.

http://www.red.com/gallery

KB


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blub06
Re: Red Camera Workflow for Thesis Project!
on Sep 22, 2007 at 1:39:10 am

Thanks I will take a look.

Chris


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blub06
Re: Red Camera Workflow for Thesis Project!
on Sep 22, 2007 at 1:54:44 am

Once again thanks for the help but...

I now understand why I have a problem with making an inteligent judgemnt vie the internet, LCD computer displays are not a good measuring tool.

I have Apple products (LCD) and a fiber optic internet connection so I am not in need of more speed, and the quality of my viewing is as good as personal computer stuff will get you.

The airplane clip looked nice but its postage stamp size on my non pro LCD screen, looks nice but could be a high end Sony or Arri D20.

I visited this web site a few weeks ago after the camera was in the hands of people who bought it and as I remember that clip was not there. The Peter Jackson stuff wont play on my computer using FireFox.

I will take Leo Tichells suggestion and look further.

Sorry for the preview spelling I was so far from the screen I didn't even notice what I had typed, hehehe.

Chris


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Leo Ticheli
Re: Red Camera Workflow for Thesis Project!
on Sep 21, 2007 at 8:14:38 pm

Chris, please forgive me for being direct.

Just because you are almost completely uninformed about the RED camera and have never seen the motion pictures it has produced, does not mean they do not exist or have not been rather widely disseminated.

If you are really interested, you might spend some time in the forums where owners have posted footage, or go to one of the venues where footage such as Peter Jackson's is shown. By the way, if you do some basic research, you'll find a clip lit with a single match.

Best regards,

Leo




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blub06
Re: Red Camera Workflow for Thesis Project!
on Sep 22, 2007 at 1:38:48 am

I am so used to companies coming to New York and showing a mature system with lots of footage that I guess I dont look to the net as a real place to discover the kind of visual information I am looking for.

Its my fault for not looking to the net for such real world examples. I guess I am stuck in the past.

I will go explore the web site that Kerry Brown offered, I look forward to it!

Thanks

Chris


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blub06
Re: Red Camera Workflow for Thesis Project!
on Sep 22, 2007 at 2:41:55 am

I am stunned, youtube is where I am supposed to look for examples? 4k on youtube?

So many links are dead and the others have postage stamp size examples. As for the stills, I could take a 150$ 7 mp still camera light it with just a little care reduce it in size and say, there it is aint it great?

I will search some more but the more I look the more I realize there is no great excitement to show off examples in real size for some reason. You would thing the PR locomotive at Red would solve this problem, but, with the camera actually out there I guess PR takes a back seat to


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Leo Ticheli
Re: Red Camera Workflow for Thesis Project!
on Sep 22, 2007 at 8:25:50 pm

Chris,

At least a couple thousand professionals have deemed the RED suitable for their work, top rental houses are buying them by the dozen, and noted cinematographers and post production professionals with sterling credentials have deemed the footage the best they've ever seen. Some major producers have selected the RED to shoot their motion pictures. Their comments are posted on the RED site.

Do I value their opinion over yours? Yes, and by the widest of margins. Especially since I've actually held the camera and seen the footage projected on a large screen. I know what it can do; you can't even seem to find a link and download samples for yourself.

What value to this forum is the opinion of someone who admits they've not even seen something they are commenting on?

If you actually screen some RED footage at high resolution and don't like it you can post your opinion and it will be given the weight it deserves. Posting that you haven't seen the footage and don't know if it's any good is valueless.

Best regards,

Leo


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blub06
Re: Red Camera Workflow for Thesis Project!
on Sep 23, 2007 at 12:05:54 am

I don't know what opinion of mine you don't value since I have offered no opinion regarding the quality of the image and have shared no opinion regarding the same.

With a track record like that (mine) I do hope you value others opinion more then mine.

I guess its bad form to offer the address of other web sites that might compeate with the Cow so, I will search some more.

I did learn after several searches that Bono of U2 has some red thing going regarding Aids in Africa!

Unlike some, I can wait to see just what Red has to offer regarding quality.

As you might know. some of the biggest movies made in the last 10 years often have DPs that shut up and get out of the way of the God Director and Producer, they are hired to execute and not get too fancy because the money is spent in front of the camera not behind it. There are a lot of Dps like that and a lot of Producers like that too. Please excuse me for not being wowed by who has said a nice thing or too about a camera they have never shot anything with.

Chris



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Leo Ticheli
Re: Red Camera Workflow for Thesis Project!
on Sep 23, 2007 at 1:47:27 am

Chris,

You are completely uninformed.

The evaluations I referenced are from respected professionals who have actually shot the footage or worked with it in post. Even a cursory review of the postings on the subject reveals the this.

Best regards,

Leo



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blub06
Re: Red Camera Workflow for Thesis Project!
on Sep 23, 2007 at 7:04:03 pm

Leo,

You are completely upset, and I think thats completely funny.

Chris


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Leo Ticheli
Re: Red Camera Workflow for Thesis Project!
on Sep 23, 2007 at 9:29:56 pm

Chris, I answered your completely inaccurate posts to set the record straight. Perhaps it wasn't necessary, because most people really interested in buying a RED probably realized you didn't know what you were talking about. I doubt they are too lazy or inept to find the numerous RED clips and evaluations by professionals with first hand experience.

You may be a rocket scientist on other matters, but on the subject of RED footage, you are clueless.

It may be a while before the RED camera software reaches it's potential, but the quality of the footage is well documented.

It's posts like yours that makes the value of time spend on the Cow questionable.

Leo


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jiri vrozina
Re: Red Camera Workflow for Thesis Project!
on Sep 27, 2007 at 9:47:28 pm

Leo,
I am interested in RED.
Now where can i borrow one for one day "test drive"??
I hope I am not asking for too much...


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Leo Ticheli
Re: Red Camera Workflow for Thesis Project!
on Sep 27, 2007 at 11:09:04 pm

For all it's wondrous utility, the internet forum is plagued by frequent miscommunication, especially when questions are rather short, vague, or not written in one's primary language. The English language offers more than ample opportunity for satire with the same words used for direct comment.

I don't know, Jiri, if you are asking a serious question, or simply making a little joke.

If the latter, just drop by any time after I receive my RED and take it off for whatever tests you desire; you can use my Lotus Elise while you're in town.

If the former, contact one of the early recipients and organize a rental. If you have the reputation chops to warrant the publicity value, RED might make a camera available to you.

With so few cameras available and none sitting on the shelf, RED is not like the Sony's and Panasonic's with loaner & demo cameras. Not on every occasion, but often we've gotten demo cameras and shot them out against each other before making the purchase decision.
Unfortunately, this is not possible with RED.

Sometimes, quite often in my case, you've got to go with the evidence you can glean and make a decision. RED promises to be everything I want for the kind of work I like to do, so I'm more than willing to take a modest financial risk with it.

Now, as clearly and seriously as I can make this, you and any of my Cow friends are more than welcome to pop over to my company to have a session with any gear we have, RED included. By the time I get it, end of December or so, it may be old news, but the offer stands.

I wouldn't be here if I were not interested in sharing what I've learned.

Good shooting and best regards,

Leo




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jiri vrozina
Re: Red Camera Workflow for Thesis Project!
on Sep 28, 2007 at 9:17:03 am

[Leo Ticheli] "For all it's wondrous utility, the internet forum is plagued by frequent miscommunication, especially when questions are rather short, vague, or not written in one's primary language. The English language offers more than ample opportunity for satire with the same words used for direct comment."
Well it is great to know Leo's English is perfect and he is using his native language to his full potencial - I have no idea how many other languages he speaks with the same excellence-perhaps Italian.


[Leo Ticheli] "If the latter, just drop by any time after I receive my RED and take it off for whatever tests you desire; you can use my Lotus Elise while you're in town."
I really wish i could do it BUT i am operating from Sydney/australia.
Regarding your Lotus Elise - I do not think I would fit in.After my accident on my H-D Road King 12 months ago I am slowly learning how to walk...those 14 pins and plate do not help much.


[Leo Ticheli] "If the former, contact one of the early recipients and organize a rental. If you have the reputation chops to warrant the publicity value, RED might make a camera available to you.

Yes - I really would love to see it.If you could use Your influence and charm perhaps You might organize demo for me in Sydney.?

Finally Leo,
I have tried my very best to use your native language to your liking ,I am hoping my grammar and spelling was faultless ,I really hope I have done you proud.

Yours truly


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Robby Roberts
Re: Red Camera Workflow for Thesis Project!
on Dec 5, 2007 at 9:05:26 pm

Leo,
I have an upcoming shoot. Can I borrow your car and camera.

Love Robby


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Leo Ticheli
Re: Red Camera Workflow for Thesis Project!
on Dec 5, 2007 at 10:01:47 pm

No problem, Robby,

I'll have it gassed up and ready to go when you get here! Better wait a bit on the Red though, according to the new delivery schedule, it won't be here until February or March.

Good shooting and best regards!

Leo



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Torrey Loomis
Re: Red Camera Workflow for Thesis Project!
on Mar 19, 2008 at 6:04:41 am

[gary adcock] "I would think that there are better resources than Silverado."

That is simply untrue. We are in post production on our first affiliated RED feature film:

http://www.sensoredthemovie.com

Pre-production has already started on the second:

http://www.melissamayi.com

Outside of Hollywood, we have some of the most experienced shooters, editors, and media technicians available.

Torrey
-----------------------------------------------
Torrey Loomis
President & CEO - Silverado Systems, Inc.
Outfitter to the World's Foremost Apple Professionals
2600 East Bidwell Street, Suite 280
Folsom, CA 95630
(916) 760-0032 • FAX (916) 404-5258
tloomis@silverado.cc
http://www.Silverado.cc


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gary adcock
Re: Red Camera Workflow for Thesis Project!
on Mar 19, 2008 at 1:07:59 pm

[Torrey Loomis] "Re: Red Camera Workflow for Thesis Project!
by Torrey Loomis on Mar 19, 2008 at 1:04:41 am

[gary adcock] "I would think that there are better resources than Silverado."

That is simply untrue. We are in post production on our first affiliated RED feature film:
"



Torrey
6 months ago ( Sept 2007) when this post originated, my comment was very true, and you have taken it out of context, as I was talking about your RENTAL dept, and since at that time your were not a "PERA" qualified rental house.

Do you really think it is fair comparing Silverado as a "Camera" rental house to Fletcher / AbleCine / Band Pro / Clairmont is rather biased- since that is not your ( Silverado's) main source of revenue, and those more established places have greater experience. THat experience is required when working with a system such as RED, but the understanding of all that came before is needed to maintain the connection with the Pros that will need/ want to work with this system.








gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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Torrey Loomis
Re: Red Camera Workflow for Thesis Project!
on Mar 19, 2008 at 4:00:54 pm

"Do you really think it is fair comparing Silverado as a "Camera" rental house to Fletcher / AbleCine / Band Pro / Clairmont is rather biased- since that is not your ( Silverado's) main source of revenue, and those more established places have greater experience. THat experience is required when working with a system such as RED, but the understanding of all that came before is needed to maintain the connection with the Pros that will need/ want to work with this system. "

Gary,

I didn't make that comparison. You made a blanket statement that there were other facilities that were better resources than Silverado on RED, and I didn't think it was true.

Some of the other facilities you mentioned were calling us for our cameras months before they received their own.

Why? We had more experience.

Torrey
-----------------------------------------------
Torrey Loomis
President & CEO - Silverado Systems, Inc.
Outfitter to the World's Foremost Apple Professionals
2600 East Bidwell Street, Suite 280
Folsom, CA 95630
(916) 760-0032 • FAX (916) 404-5258
tloomis@silverado.cc
http://www.Silverado.cc



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gary adcock
Re: Red Camera Workflow for Thesis Project!
on Mar 19, 2008 at 4:59:14 pm

[Torrey Loomis] "Some of the other facilities you mentioned were calling us for our cameras months before they received their own. "

Torrey
you cannot say that in Sept when that was posted that you had anymore experience than anyone else, you just had your cameras before some of the larger rental houses.MY comments were also limited to renting gear, not any part of the post process, since PL mount lenses are not something your average Apple VAR has experience with.

The 4 top tier PERA rental houses I mention offer the highest quality rental gear and qualified people to setup and test your rental gear. To me it is about using a supplier for the best that they are, I want my gear rentals to match my needs, not just take what is available.
My recent RED tests allowed me to choose from over 100 different 35mm PL mount lenses for my testing, do you have even 20% of that number?

I stand by my comments-- it should have nothing to do with Silverado's reputation as a reseller, but compared to the RENTAL houses I mentioned, you cannot convince me that your facility is at the same level.


gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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gary adcock
Re: Red Camera Workflow for Thesis Project!
on Mar 19, 2008 at 5:00:40 pm

[Torrey Loomis] "Some of the other facilities you mentioned were calling us for our cameras months before they received their own. "

Torrey
you cannot say that in Sept when that was posted that you had anymore experience than anyone else, you just had your cameras before some of the larger rental houses.MY comments were also limited to renting gear, not any part of the post process, since PL mount lenses are not something your average Apple VAR has experience with.

The 4 top tier PERA rental houses I mention offer the highest quality rental gear and qualified people to setup and test your rental gear. To me it is about using a supplier for the best that they are, I want my gear rentals to match my needs, not just take what is available.
My recent RED tests allowed me to choose from over 100 different 35mm PL mount lenses for my testing, do you have even 20% of that number?

I stand by my comments-- it should have nothing to do with Silverado's reputation as a reseller, but compared to the RENTAL houses I mentioned, you cannot convince me that your facility is at the same level.


gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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