FORUMS: list search recent posts

red cameras for music videos?

COW Forums : RED Camera

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
william primrose
red cameras for music videos?
on Dec 28, 2008 at 1:23:02 am


So why would I use a red camera for a music video that will play on the web? I got this gut feeling that using a red is total overkill. Why? a friend of mine refused to use a red camera for a web series saying it wasn't needed. She is using the Sony EMX-3 instead saying it will be enough for her production. I have thought of buying a red, yet have held off because I suspect that it's more marketing hype by red and the rental houses than reality.

I can understand using a red on feature big screen productions, and large budget. But a music video has a short life span as it is.

I rent out equipment for low budget projects, and I am kept quite busy, and I was going to add a red to the rental aspect of my business, yet another friend of mine who works in features said not to. There are issues with post costs, that eat up what's left of a tight budget

could someone explain to me why I would add a red camera to my package truck?



Return to posts index

cowcowcowcowcow
Noah Kadner
Re: red cameras for music videos?
on Dec 28, 2008 at 5:19:36 am

If you're getting gigs with the gear you have now just stick with that. If you're losing gigs to other equally qualified folks because clients want the RED then you should probably get one. Nobody is getting jobs just because they have a RED what with the market as saturated as it is now with them. They're getting gigs because they are good and shoot nice looking stuff with RED and have their workflows already figured out.

Noah

Check out My My FCP Blog and my new RED Blog. Unlock the secrets of the DVX100, HVX200 and Apple Color.
Now featuring the Sony EX1 Guidebook,
DVD Studio Pro and How to Light Interviews.
http://www.callboxlive.com


Return to posts index

Bob Zelin
Re: red cameras for music videos?
on Dec 28, 2008 at 4:10:30 pm

this is a very amusing post, but I know the mindset well. A friend of mine sells disk drives. I told him that on his website, he should put down "these drives are for Pro Tools application", and create another tab that says "these drives are for Final Cut Pro application". People are so blind, that they just don't get it.

Is an Arri for TV drama, and a Panaflex for feature films ? Can you shoot a fashion video with a 35mm Panaflex, or should you use a Panasonic Varicam or Sony F-900 ? What kind of questions are these ?

It also reminds me of an old client in NY that did a lot of hi end fashion videos for well known designers. His DP needed some work, and sent in his impressive reel for a big corporate video. Because they didn't see any "talking head" stuff, they felt that he was not qualified to do the job. My client said a line to me that I will always remember "I see you can shoot washers, but can you shoot dryers ?".

Glyph made an entire career of selling "disk drives" for Pro Tools systems, when they were just regular disk drives with the right ad campaign.

Bob Zelin




Return to posts index


Jerry Hofmann
Re: red cameras for music videos?
on Dec 28, 2008 at 10:09:32 pm

LOL... you're slaying me Bob. It's so true.

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer

Author: "Jerry Hofmann on Final Cut Pro 4" Click here

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO, CD's


Return to posts index

Stuart Ferreyra
Re: red cameras for music videos?
on Dec 28, 2008 at 9:06:55 pm

[william primrose] "could someone explain to me why I would add a red camera to my package truck?"

Simple:
- If it's gonna make you $$$$, go for it.
- If it's not gonna make you $$$$, forget about it.

Stuart Ferreyra
Timecode Multimedia
Colorist / Finisher / Consultant

- Now coloring History Channel's Nostradamus Special
- Visit Stuart's studio on the web

"Affordable HD - 2K - RED Post Production for Indies"



Return to posts index

cowcowcowcowcow
Jerry Hofmann
Re: red cameras for music videos?
on Dec 28, 2008 at 10:05:40 pm

It's about the look, not the medium of delivery.

You'll not get a very shallow depth of field with an HDV camera nor will you get the slick look of film very easily with an HDV camera. You will with a decent RED shooter and an editor who knows what to do with it. Whether you deliver for the web or a feature film, it's about the look... anything shot with that slick look is going to look higher end.

If the band doesn't care about their image, and want their video to look like a home movie, shoot with HDV: the consumer format of choice. In fact if you read the Sony press release when they announced the invention of HDV, they pointedly said that it was intended to be an HD format for consumers. Of course Canon creates a higher end 3 chip HDV camera, and we're off to the races with a crappy format chosen by the uneducated "pros" that will pervade until the pro's finally say no.

Sure, it costs more to shoot with a RED camera than an EX series something, but you get what you pay for. If the client's not ready to pay for that look, then it makes no sense to shoot/invest into it.

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer

Author: "Jerry Hofmann on Final Cut Pro 4" Click here

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO, CD's


Return to posts index


william primrose
Re: red cameras for music videos?
on Dec 29, 2008 at 5:24:22 pm

thanks for the input. You guys have given me some ideas and things to ponder on. To red, or not to red...I think I will stay within my clients budgets. Everyone using my gear are really happy, I meet a certain budget level that they can afford, besides, they like getting a good final product and saving thousands on overpriced rental equipment costs. They have discovered they can get paid more by using my company. And that turns a frown upside down.




Return to posts index

Stuart Ferreyra
Re: red cameras for music videos?
on Dec 29, 2008 at 5:57:22 pm

It all comes down to $$$. And the more the client saves while maintaining or exceeding the quality they expect the better for you and your biz. Good Luck!

Stuart Ferreyra
Timecode Multimedia
Colorist / Finisher / Consultant

- Now coloring History Channel's Nostradamus Special
- Visit Stuart's studio on the web

"Affordable HD - 2K - RED Post Production for Indies"



Return to posts index

Nate Weaver
Re: red cameras for music videos?
on Jan 2, 2009 at 8:09:58 pm

It's always nice to know that you did your client a service by keeping production costs in check. But limiting yourself to certain gear will have the side effect of limiting yourself to certain budgets, and keep a glass ceiling over your head.

I've had a great reel for a long time doing what I consider tremendous work on DVX's, HD100s, then full size XDCAMs, etc etc. What I didn't realize was that my quality of work certainly supported better formats, and that it was up to me to make the change...to say, "I'm not going to do these $10K videos anymore with HDV cams (or whichever format)". Every time I've made the assertion that I'm good enough to step up to the next level, my clients have gone along with me.

This is doubly true since the Red has really made itself viable for budgets of every level...if you look you can find one for the same rental rate as an EX3. I saw there's no reason to not do it. Don't limit yourself.

(p.s. The EX1/3 is an amazing camera. The Red is better. Don't fool yourself into thinking otherwise)

Nate Weaver
Director/D.P., Los Angeles
http://www.nateweaver.net


Return to posts index

william primrose
Re: red cameras for music videos?
on Jan 3, 2009 at 4:22:23 am

I don't feel I'm fooling myself in any way. I'm not convinced that the red camera is for every project that is done on video. Overkill is overkill regardless of how great the image is. So where can you broadcast this high quality image? to get a red for 450 a day? How far will it drop? that I find interesting, if it's as good as they say then why is it so cheap to rent. maybe a saturated market. Maybe people are not so willing to rent them for the higher amounts, and that the little EMX-3 is holding it's own. I have been told that the post is 900 an hour for transfer...Ouch! film sounds better and better. Then again, I am also getting the belief that many people don't know how to work with film anymore. The more I look into this, the more stories are coming out. lost and incomplete transfers, no images breakdowns, shutting down productions for a day.

My conclusion seems to be it's just another video camera with a marketing plan attached.



Return to posts index

cowcowcowcowcow
Nate Weaver
Re: red cameras for music videos?
on Jan 4, 2009 at 7:12:19 am

Of course the Red is not for every project. Is it a likely candidate for music videos? If you want them to look like 35, it sure is. Sounds like you've done a whole lot of making your mind up on something you know very little about.

1-The Red is technically better on many fronts, resolution being just one part of it. It records a 12bit raw image to a 12bit file format recorded at a much higher bitrate. Among other things, this keeps the image much cleaner in color correction. Technically speaking, the Red is about oversampling. THAT is what makes the image better. If you don't know what that is, look it up.

2-$900/hr? I'm sure somebody charges that. I do Red post on my 2.66 Quad Intel at home without transcoding. Cost me as much as it did when I owned XDCAM HD. Which is zero. Is it more work than XDCAM? Absolutely. Do things look better? Absolutely.

Where does "where do you broadcast this high quality image?" come in? Is TV a good enough answer? Web? Here in Los Angeles the Red is taking over for a huge chunk of what used to be done on Varicams and F900s. You're telling me myself and hundreds of other DPs are victims of hype based on something you've never even worked with once? Geesh. I think you need to do some real research.

Nate Weaver
Director/D.P., Los Angeles
http://www.nateweaver.net


Return to posts index

cowcowcowcowcow
gary adcock
Re: red cameras for music videos?
on Jan 4, 2009 at 2:50:54 pm

[Nate Weaver] "t records a 12bit raw image to a 12bit file format recorded at a much higher bitrate."

Nate,

What 12 bit file format and how did you get there? Most of the tools are limited to 10bit output on conversion - only the original R3D file contains the full 12bit info.
.
Even the DPX conversions for the most part are only 10bit due to the limiting factors in the OS (either OS)



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Inside look at the IoHD
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




Return to posts index

Nate Weaver
Re: red cameras for music videos?
on Jan 4, 2009 at 6:26:44 pm

I'm doing the native R3D path in FCP sent to Color.

The extra 2 bits in Color is noticable...files are even more elastic than 10 bit.

Nate Weaver
Director/D.P., Los Angeles
http://www.nateweaver.net


Return to posts index

gary adcock
Re: red cameras for music videos?
on Jan 4, 2009 at 9:08:44 pm

[Nate Weaver] "The extra 2 bits in Color is noticable."


Funny I don't see that big a difference in my workflow.


its not an "extra 2 bits" if you could actually see a difference it is another ADDITIONAL 3072 levels of gray between 10 and 12 bit data. ( I say this because the human eye can only discern about 1000 differing luma differences at one time- and less as you get older)




gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Inside look at the IoHD
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




Return to posts index

Nate Weaver
Re: red cameras for music videos?
on Jan 4, 2009 at 10:04:18 pm

Of course I can't "see" an additional 307239 levels of color or whatever.

The extra 2 bits make for less and more refined grain as I adjust gamma around, and also as you tweak tweak color temps around in the RAW decoding tab. In general, I can make stronger corrections and the image holds together more and stays more refined looking, if I had to find a term for it. It makes a very big difference for material shot at >1000 ISO where you're pulling an image out of the RAW muck.

You can also see it in the scopes and histogram. Twist an 8 bit image around and you'll see large gaps in the histogram that manifest themselves as posterization in the blacks. 10 bit of course does this much less. With 12 bit, the gaps in the histogram disappear completely, and so do the gaps in the low end of my waveform.

It's fine if you don't see the difference. I do however, and from now on will do everything I can to take R3Ds directly into Color from now on for final output.

Nate Weaver
Director/D.P., Los Angeles
http://www.nateweaver.net


Return to posts index

cowcowcowcowcow
David Battistella
Re: red cameras for music videos?
on Jan 5, 2009 at 2:27:23 pm



I never understand why these threads turn into Bit Depth pissing matches.

It's tiring.


David




Peace and Love :)
Read my Blog
http://blogs.creativecow.net/DavidBattistella


Return to posts index

gary adcock
Re: red cameras for music videos?
on Jan 5, 2009 at 3:42:00 pm

[David Battistella] "It's tiring. "

so adding to the noise makes it better?




gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows

Inside look at the IoHD
http://library.creativecow.net/articles/adcock_gary/AJAIOHD.php




Return to posts index

Nate Weaver
Re: red cameras for music videos?
on Jan 6, 2009 at 7:03:30 am

How's it a pissing match?

Gary said he doesn't understand why it makes a difference. I explained why it does to me. Nobody has to agree with me, although I guess I would wish somebody would conduct their own experiments based on what I share and decide if it's for them.

A 10bit flow would not be a problem for a lot of work, especially those who are keeping to natural looks. I, on the otherhand, working in music vids, often have aggressive grades which in the past have fallen short using cameras with 8-bit codecs. If anything I only took a little issue with how Gary was saying how could I possibly see a difference.

William, I do nothing but music vids. Here's a pile of stuff I've done with the Red this year:

http://www.nateweaver.net/Nate/SecretVideo.html

http://www.nateweaver.net/Nate/RocketSummer.html

http://www.nateweaver.net/BurnHalo/DLGColor.html

http://www.nateweaver.net/Nate/AgainstMe.html

http://vimeo.com/2492740

http://www.nateweaver.net/Nate/PTV.html

In the end you need to track down a camera for yourself and do your own tests and decide if it's worth it for you. Asking opinions on the internet will only get you people saying "yes", "no", and "maybe"...which is rarely helpful.

Nate Weaver
Director/D.P., Los Angeles
http://www.nateweaver.net


Return to posts index

william primrose
Re: red cameras for music videos?
on Jan 6, 2009 at 7:23:14 pm

I agree, we are thinking of using a red on the next shoot in Feb. as we are using a milo motion control as well. So far with the Sony EMX-3's we have been getting great images, as we have added a Brevis and have been using Nikon lenses. Everything we have done so far, the feed back from everyone has been positive and they love the images.

I have to keep in mind the budgets that we run up against as well, and also the viewing audience, while some people go into lengthy discussions over cameras, so far I have found the viewers don't seem to really care so much about what camera was used or not. For me, music videos are about looking at, rather than looking in. So I guess the best way is to get a red and see what we think. a friend of mine has been doing a great deal of research on it, and is looking at the scarlett.I also want a very reliable camera as well, so far the Sony's have operated flawlessly.

I am very leery of marketing hype, I have to look at the costs as well, I remember someone from red boasting about how they started from scratch and in 18 months had a final product, that kind of makes me think more about what they may have missed in doing it so fast.

Also, I have figured to really get the best out of a red, I would have to spend about 250k for it to really make a difference.

In the back of my head, I still think red is better suited for feature film where the budget can accept the viability of using a red.. to use on on a music video, which in most cases has a short life span of views, isn't worth the expense. That's just my opinion, so far.





Return to posts index

Jon Fordham
Re: red cameras for music videos?
on Jan 7, 2009 at 4:42:50 pm

William,

You are right on the money with this. The hype is strong. And regardless of what gear you choose to invest in, you should ALWAYS rent one first and give a spin. Try before you buy! Just make sure you know how to drive before you get behind the wheel. Yes, the hype is strong. And I have my own personal reservations about the RED after my experiences with it. However, the RED is a capable piece of gear. The one thing you need to make sure you do when you take the RED for a spin is make sure you have a DP who has worked with it before, or hire a RED tech to guide you through the camera. While the RED is still a fussy and quirky piece of gear, most productions experience problems with it because they have no idea how to operate the damn thing. After your test drive, make sure you have someone with RED post experience too.

The same goes for any technology. The 777 might be the epitome of commercial airplane technology, but I wouldn't know how to fly a Cessna. So I'm sure as hell not going to get behind the wheel of either!

I will say that Nate has a very good point regarding budgets and the clients attracted. While you may have already built a solid foundation of clients comfortable with what you have to offer, hopefully those clients will continue to come back to you with bigger and better jobs. And if renting gear is your business, then you will eventually need to be prepared to service them as well.

As far as the "overkill" debate goes, the most important factor you're forgetting is your clients reel. Music videos in particular are generally regarded as a stepping stone to bigger projects like commercials. They are a way for a director (and DP) to make a name for themselves. They are a way for a director to prove his creativity and showcase his style. And they allow the DP to showcase his lighting and photography. So whether or not the video is destined for youtube followed by obscurity, the people who created the video want to show off their best work. And the same idea holds true for all projects.

Jon

Jon Fordham
Director of Photography
http://www.jonfordham.com


Return to posts index

Nate Weaver
Re: red cameras for music videos?
on Jan 7, 2009 at 9:39:06 pm

In the end I'd just like to say it was working for me well when I didn't own one, and it's working well for me now that I own one as well. That's all. It's my nature to tell people what's been working for me rather than keep it all to myself.

Nate Weaver
Director/D.P., Los Angeles
http://www.nateweaver.net


Return to posts index

william primrose
Re: red cameras for music videos?
on Jan 7, 2009 at 10:04:33 pm

thanks for the great input. I am sort of a stepping stone for my clients. I have a great package, and at prices they can afford. As you know, gear can eat up a budget and leave nothing for the artist, My concept is to give them a chance to make something they can afford without breaking the bank. I hate to see artists miss out on being able to create something they have dreamed about. I supply the sony emx-3's but also have a lot of other gear for there project. Sometimes they don't use our cameras, just our gear.



Return to posts index

william primrose
Re: red cameras for music videos?
on Jan 5, 2009 at 8:19:51 pm

I don't know enough yet about the red camera, that's why I'm asking questions.My concern is as I am seeing here there are so many opinions as to what is, and what isn't. I get the feeling everyone wants video to be film. Which it isn't. I also seem to be getting the impression that the red camera is the holy grail of all video. Which, may or may not be the case. I am slowly beginning to grasp some of what is going on with the red, and in my usual slow pace, will eventually figure it all out. For now,I will stick with what we have, and keep looking into the red for the next few months. I guess it's the old you can't please everyone thing. some people swear by the red, and others swear at it.



Return to posts index

william primrose
Re: red cameras for music videos?
on Jan 3, 2009 at 4:29:33 am

I don't want larger budget projects, Limiting myself is about staying in the reality of what my objective and business plan is designed to do. It works .... There's no market in larger productions . Just check out all the big boys lots and look at all the trucks sitting around rusting....



Return to posts index

Kris Anderson
Re: red cameras for music videos?
on Jan 7, 2009 at 6:04:36 am

William, if you think the RED is just another camera with a marketing campaign you need to think again. RED and other cameras like it are the future. You're thinking awfully short term. Who knows where your films might end up in 10 years time? Think future proofing.

I have seen some very successful RED shoots and subsequent post production sessions. I have also seen some disasters. The difference? People who know what they're doing. That begins on set and flows all the way through to mastering. Don't think of RED as video or film. It's neither. It's data. Put some Grade A glass on the front and you will love it.

The reason the rental cost is so much lower is because the initial buy in price is also much lower than say a Sony F23 or an Arri film rig. The EX is a nice camera but you're talking about a Toyota vs a Maserati. But if your clients are happy with the way you're doing things now then I think you've answered your own question. Shoot the EX and put the savings into your own pocket. There's not a thing wrong with that.

Best of luck.



Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]