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zac rothman
RED FCP post workflow
on Aug 29, 2008 at 6:15:48 pm

I've recently inherited a project shot with RED ONE. It was shot in RAW, about 100 minutes worth of footage, and I am currently grappling with the post production workflow.

Can anyone direct me to a step by step guide from what hardware and software I need to the basic steps in posting this thing?

I am an experienced FCP user, but have not dealt with files of this size before. I'm assuming I must upgrade my equipment, purchasing new. That being said, I am an indie filmmaker and must remain as budget conscious in my endeavors as possible.





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Russell Lasson
Re: RED FCP post workflow
on Aug 29, 2008 at 7:00:39 pm

First off, an intel mac is a must.

From there, it really depends on what you're delivering for. There are so many options for different workflows, it's best to choose the workflow based on what you need to deliver.

So what are you finishing to?

-Russ

Russell Lasson
Ridgeline Digital Cinema Mastering
Universal Post
Salt Lake City, UT


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Stuart Ferreyra
Re: RED FCP post workflow
on Aug 29, 2008 at 7:15:44 pm

The basics needed for RED using a Mac (in my opinion) are:

Hardware:
- An Intel Mac
- HD Monitor
- Kona Card

Software:
- RedCine
- Crimson
- FCP

"In Search of a Midnight Kiss" now in theaters!

Stuart Ferreyra
Timecode Multimedia
Colorist / Finisher / Consultant
Off: 310.826.9199
AIM: stuart.colorist
http://www.timecodemultimedia.com

"HD, 2K & RED Post Production for Indies at Affordable Rates"



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Matt Doe
Re: RED FCP post workflow
on Sep 3, 2008 at 8:45:20 pm

I recently finished post on a short shot on RED. It was my first experience with the workflow and I hit quite a few bumps in the road. Working from home I lacked the Kona and HD monitoring, both would have been nice but are not a necessity.

I cut with the proxy files, and once I got picture lock went back through REDcine to conform to 1080p, without using Crimson it was a pain, I would definitely recommend going the Crimson route to smooth things out.

Working with the proxy files was a pain, as there was no sync audio, though that was due to the camera firmware at the time, which I believe is no longer an issue.

Render time was about 26 hours for the 10 minutes or so of footage I ended up using for the final cut on a quad core 3.0 ghz Pro with 6 gig of ram




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Nayeli Garci-Crespo
Re: RED FCP post workflow
on Sep 4, 2008 at 3:18:52 pm

Hi Matt...

Just wondering... did you have any trouble with FCP crashing when you tried to render? We have a feature length cut with M proxies that we can't render without getting booted from the program (with a message saying the redcode plugin is the probable problem), with the same thing happening if we try to export a QT.

Any ideas?

Nayeli

-Nayeli


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Matt Doe
Re: RED FCP post workflow
on Sep 4, 2008 at 3:58:48 pm

The only render I did through FCP was syncing the audio with the proxy files so that my offline edit would be easier. All my HD rendering was done with REDcine. Rendered the 4k 2:1 down to 1080p 24 ProRes HQ. There was an issue I ran into with REDcine with it not rendering more than 12 files at a time, but I believe that was a software bug which has been cleared up.

Sorry to say I have no experience rendering through log and transfer with REDcode in FCP if that is what you are referring to.



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gary adcock
Re: RED FCP post workflow
on Sep 4, 2008 at 4:30:58 pm

[Nayeli Garci-Crespo] " We have a feature length cut with M proxies that we can't render without getting booted from the program (with a message saying the redcode plugin is the probable problem), with the same thing happening if we try to export a QT."

that usually means you are not working with the correct versions of the RED plugins.

make sure you have the latest versions for everything you are using and have the machine set for unlimited RT.

Other causes would be lack of disk space on your main storage or trying to use the a drive without sufficient read / write speed.





gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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zac rothman
Re: RED FCP post workflow
on Sep 4, 2008 at 7:26:51 pm

Hey Gary,

What is a sufficient read/write speed for the drive in your opinion?

zac



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Russell Lasson
Re: RED FCP post workflow
on Sep 4, 2008 at 7:32:09 pm

I would suggest at least 60MB/sec as the minimum. Anything more than that would certainly help.

-Russ

Russell Lasson
Ridgeline Digital Cinema Mastering
Universal Post
Salt Lake City, UT


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gary adcock
Re: RED FCP post workflow
on Sep 5, 2008 at 1:00:48 pm

[zac rothman] "What is a sufficient read/write speed for the drive in your opinion? "

zac that totally depends on what you are doing.

as russell says a single sata drive is sufficient to handle capture of Redcode, and I regularly capture to estata drives onset without issue. ( Sonnet's F2 esata drive will handle 1080sf 23.98 animation codec files without issue - that is over 120 Megs a sec)

On the post / finish side it is all about handling the files as video, and that requires one of 2 things -raw horsepower with storage and CPU's maxed - or time to be able to process the files into a 'easier" to use format.

The Digital Management System ( DMS) I designed for Fletcher Camera<http://www.fletch.com/rentalonsetdms.html> for all types of tapeless media uses a 4bay eSata drive unit from Sonnet that allows a laptop acquisition based for 2 mirrored < RAID1> drives for optimum backup on location.

My desktop setup is all about raw power, I have SAS and/ or Fibre storage on all of my desktops I especially like the 2 of the SAS units I have tested - a Dulce ProDQ and a CineRAID Edit Pro, both working off Areca's amazingly fast ARC 1221X HBA card.

All of my fibre arrays are currently on ATTO 42ES cards thru a Qlogic switching While the network of fibre arrays accessible on my desktop are all at minimum rated over 250 MBps,
The 2 SAS arrays, setup as standalone units, are all handling over 550MBps each and I will be seeing a SAS unit after IBC that should be able to handle 4K DPX frames in realtime on just 12 drives and that is over 1GB per second.



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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Craig Swanson
Re: RED FCP post workflow
on Sep 5, 2008 at 8:16:35 pm

I've used log and transfer and it worked great with the crimson workflow. I had trouble cutting with the proxies. Sometimes my mbp would crash, so I abandoned that idea. I had the time so used L & T. Two hours of footage took about 26 hours to convert. Since then my computer hasn't crashed once, back and forth between crimson, redcine, fcp with no problem. Well, not exactly no problems...I still am learning the software of all the above applications!!

Macbook Pro 17
10.5.4
2.6 ghz
4 gigs ram
GeForce 8600 GT 512 mb
HD One 8 drive Raid 5
QT 7.5
FCP 6.04



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gary adcock
Re: RED FCP post workflow
on Sep 6, 2008 at 10:34:32 am

[Craig Swanson] " I had trouble cutting with the proxies. Sometimes my mbp would crash, so I abandoned that idea."

that usually is the issue when one uses too large a proxy file for the hardware, laptops are only rated to handle the M or P proxy files, there is not enough horsepower to handle more. Note also that RED recommends 2G ram per processor for best results so less than 3 Gigs on a laptop is not sufficient to handle the larger proxy workflow.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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gary adcock
Re: RED FCP post workflow
on Sep 6, 2008 at 10:36:33 am

[Craig Swanson] " I had trouble cutting with the proxies. Sometimes my mbp would crash, so I abandoned that idea."

that usually is the issue when one uses too large a proxy file for the hardware, laptops are only rated to handle the M or P proxy files, there is not enough horsepower to handle more. Note also that RED recommends 2G ram per processor for best results so less than 3 Gigs on a laptop is not sufficient to handle the larger proxy workflow.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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gary adcock
Re: RED FCP post workflow
on Sep 6, 2008 at 10:37:52 am

[Craig Swanson] " I had trouble cutting with the proxies. Sometimes my mbp would crash, so I abandoned that idea."

that usually is the issue when one uses too large a proxy file for the hardware, laptops are only rated to handle the M or P proxy files, there is not enough horsepower to handle more. Note also that RED recommends 2G ram per processor for best results so less than 3 Gigs on a laptop is not sufficient to handle the larger proxy workflow.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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Craig Swanson
Re: RED FCP post workflow
on Sep 6, 2008 at 9:55:56 pm

I used the two lowest res quicktime proxies to test with. I think it crashed with the p proxie? I have 4 gigs ram so I thought I would be safe with that. But that was the extent of my testing with proxies. I didn't do extensive tests because I already had my footage converted to prores. Still testing the water with these files and workflows.

Craig

Macbook Pro 17
10.5.4
2.6 ghz
4 gigs ram
GeForce 8600 GT 512 mb
HD One 8 drive Raid 5
QT 7.5
FCP 6.04



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Les Kaye
Re: RED FCP post workflow
on Sep 13, 2008 at 8:28:51 pm

Craig (and everyone else),
I'm about to start my first Red project on a 2.33ghz 17" MPB (Intel) with 2GB ram with client provided drives (don't know what model they are). The footage has been ingested by the client, and I've been told that I can work with the low res QT reference files that were created.

Is my MBP up to the task? Any tips I should know? I can't verify just yet, but I believe the drives themselves are up to Red specs.

Thanks for any help,
-Les

http://www.leskaye.net


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Craig Swanson
Re: RED FCP post workflow
on Sep 15, 2008 at 6:41:38 pm

I also got files shipped to me on a 5400 firewire drive. I didn't want to use that drive to edit with so I copied everything to my raid. I didn't use the quicktime reference files to edit with though. I used log and transfer to convert the files to prores to edit with. Depending on the amount of footage you have this can take a long time on a mbp. It took me about 28 hours on mine for two hours of footage.

I then edited with fcp, exported an xml, used crimson to get that into redcine and back out to fcp. It worked but I never used crimson or redcine before so I did lots of testing, reading and screwing up on the matter. I only edited a thirty second commercial so the render out of redcine was fast (maybe 5 minutes).

My biggest advice is test as much as you can with your workflow. That took me the most time. I wish I had spent that much time on editorial and creating the spot. But this was my first project using r3d files so the next one will be easier. matter of fact it was the first time I ever used FCP, Motion and Color too.

Craig


Macbook Pro 17
10.5.4
2.6 ghz
4 gigs ram
GeForce 8600 GT 512 mb
HD One 8 drive Raid 5
QT 7.5
FCP 6.04



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Nayeli Garci-Crespo
Re: RED FCP post workflow
on Sep 6, 2008 at 1:23:12 am

I think disk speed is most probably the issue, or one of the issues...at least for dropping frames during playback. We're using 7200rpm firewire drives connected with firewire 800. Thanks.

-Nayeli


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Mike Schrengohst
Re: RED FCP post workflow
on Sep 9, 2008 at 4:25:39 pm

I used the proxies to make h.264 files with burn-in TC that my clients could watch and make notes from. I kept the audio at the best quality. I used those for off-lining. Then after approval I just replaced the low-res TC video with 10 bit uncompressed files I made in AE from 10 bit dpx files that were created from Red Alert. Kinda like doing it the old fashioned way but it works.


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Joshua Rosenfield
Re: RED FCP post workflow
on Oct 2, 2008 at 6:10:12 am

I am currently in pre-production for a small independent feature shooting on RED. We've done a lot of pre-testing for our workflow, which you might be interested in. This process is working great for us:

(working with 4K REDCODE36 .R3D files):

1.) Transcode .R3D files to Apple ProRes (SQ) at lowest debayer settings.
2.) Cut with low-res ProRes in FCP for OFFLINE.
3.) Crimson Workflow to RedAlert or RedCine for one-light of all footage used in locked cut.
4.) Render high-quality ProRes (HQ) files at full debayer with 5-second handles in RedAlert or RedCine.
5.) Back to Crimson Workflow for roundtrip to FCP.
6.) Send FCP locked cut to Color for grading.
7.) Back to FCP for output to HDCAM SR.

For the initial transcode for offline, I'm getting a ratio of about 1:3.5, not bad at all.

For the high-quality ProRes render, you can expect 1:12-15.

This is for a 1080p23.98 finish in 709 colorspace.

Hope this helps!



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