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RedAlert preset & FCP L&T mismatch

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Kimberly White
RedAlert preset & FCP L&T mismatch
on Aug 12, 2008 at 1:41:30 am

I'm editing a feature doc shot entirely in 4K. Final output is printing to 70mm, 35mm, and Broadcast.

I'm trying to create ProRes HQ files with a basic color pass using the FCP Log and Transfer plugin. So I created a preset with RedAlert and applied it to my footage in the L&T window...

BUT it looks drastically different in the Log and Transfer window than it did in RedAlert.

Any ideas why this is happening?

I'm viewing all of these things on the same monitor, so it's not difference in calibration.
I did do an "extremo test" - created a preset in RedAlert that has way crushed blacks and way high contrast, and it kinda worked in that the resulting image in the L&T window looks good - but can't imagine using that as a workaround - it's just to prove that the F&T window is actually seeing the differences in my presets, just inaccurately.

Thanks for your help! This is a huge project.

Mac 10.5.4
Quad-Core Intel
8GB Memory
FCP 6.0.4


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gary adcock
Re: RedAlert preset & FCP L&T mismatch
on Aug 12, 2008 at 12:43:39 pm

[Kimberly White] " Final output is printing to 70mm, 35mm, and Broadcast."

Sorry
if you are possibly planning a 70mm filmout - you need to skip the prores workflow and stick to a frame based workflow with DPX or tiff files. The cost for re-conform from your problem will be astronomical.


[Kimberly White] "I'm trying to create ProRes HQ files with a basic color pass using the FCP Log and Transfer plugin. So I created a preset with RedAlert and applied it to my footage in the L&T window... BUT it looks drastically different in the Log and Transfer window than it did in RedAlert. "

Yes - since you are applying an incorrect LUT to the L&T footage - L&T is loading in REC 709 as default color space and most likely you are adding a REDSpace RSX file to the partially converted import into FCP.



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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Kimberly White
Re: RedAlert preset & FCP L&T mismatch
on Aug 12, 2008 at 6:18:03 pm

[gary adcock] "you need to skip the prores workflow and stick to a frame based workflow with DPX or tiff files"

Great, ok - thanks for redirecting my efforts. I've been trying to ascertain that exact info regarding online to film after the ProRes workflow. I can't find any posts relating to DPX or tiff workflow, do you have any advice on where to look for posts/articles/info?


[gary adcock] "you are applying an incorrect LUT to the L&T footage - L&T is loading in REC 709 as default color space and most likely you are adding a REDSpace RSX file to the partially converted import into FCP"

I had a feeling it must be mismatched LUTs. Is there a way to make L&T load in REDSpace rather than the default REC 709? Or is there another way to add log info and a color pass in one step? (Though I'm not sure this process is even relevant in a DPX/tiff workflow.)


Thank you so much for your help, I typically edit features shot on film and am out of my element here - though excited to be so.


Mac 10.5.4
Quad-Core Intel
8GB Memory
FCP 6.0.4


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Kimberly White
Re: RedAlert preset & FCP L&T mismatch
on Aug 12, 2008 at 8:02:54 pm

FYI -
I figured out how to get my color pass and loginfo in one step using REDAlert to create an REC709 preset... of course it's not quite as pretty as RedSpace, but this is an offline edit afterall and I can't edit a feature doc with no log information associated with the clips.

Thanks Gary for putting me on the right track!


Mac 10.5.4
Quad-Core Intel
8GB Memory
FCP 6.0.4


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Kimberly White
Re: RedAlert preset & FCP L&T mismatch
on Aug 12, 2008 at 7:35:07 pm

[gary adcock] "you need to skip the prores workflow and stick to a frame based workflow with DPX or tiff files"

I just spoke with someone at RED and they said that editing with ProRes is fine for a film out. That I'd be able to generate an accurate EDL that could be brought into REDCine (perhaps via Crimson) for an online.

Any thoughts? Suggestions?

Any experiences with RED film out?


Thanks for the help!

Mac 10.5.4
Quad-Core Intel
8GB Memory
FCP 6.0.4


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gary adcock
Re: RedAlert preset & FCP L&T mismatch
on Aug 12, 2008 at 11:59:59 pm

[Kimberly White] "Any experiences with RED film out? "

Yes.


[Kimberly White] "I just spoke with someone at RED and they said that editing with ProRes is fine for a film out. That I'd be able to generate an accurate EDL that could be brought into REDCine (perhaps via Crimson) for an online."

Yes that would be one way, and it will allow for a number of your workflow issues. I am going to assume that you are posting in Scratch as that is what the crimson workflow is designed for.

The Industry standard DPX workflow allows you to create master DPX files and then create low res working files for the intermediate steps- avoiding all of the issues having to re-conform your shots later at virtually any post facility that you choose, since most high end post houses already can handle 2 or 4K DPX frames.

It sounds as if your editing knowledge may not have been fully rounded, how much 2K work have you edited prior to this project?




gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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Kimberly White
Re: RedAlert preset & FCP L&T mismatch
on Aug 13, 2008 at 2:48:46 am

[gary]"I am going to assume that you are posting in Scratch as that is what the crimson workflow is designed for."

What we post out with is still flexible, this is a workflow in progress (design-wise, not execution). Scratch is one option, and if I end up going with the ProRes workflow, then using Crimson and Scratch makes sense. But the whole point of figuring this out ahead of time is to choose the best method. My employers are flexible, so I'm trying to develop am informed recommendation now that I have the stuff to play with.


[gary]"The Industry standard DPX workflow allows you to create master DPX files and then create low res working files for the intermediate steps"

Sounds great, I would love to have a workflow that easily translates back to master DPX files - what I'm missing is the ingest part of the equation. Are you suggesting having a post house create full DPX files right off the bat, then editing with low res versions of those? What are the risks/cons with that kind of workflow?


[gary]"how much 2K work have you edited prior to this project?"

The workflow I'm used to doesn't involve 2K directly. The five features I've edited all had the 2K creation/best light telecine/sync done at a post house before it is given to me on DVCam dubs to edit with. So you're right, my knowledge of how to generate those files is not fully rounded, it has never been part of my job before.

(As a side note when I signed on for this gig it was a standard HD1080i for broadcast only deal - but after winning a grant they decided to re-shoot the whole thing with RED - hence my onthejob learning curve)

Thanks for any advice or suggestions.


Mac 10.5.4
Quad-Core Intel
8GB Memory
FCP 6.0.4


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Uli Kunkel
Re: RedAlert preset & FCP L&T mismatch
on Sep 4, 2008 at 11:08:41 pm

Gary,

I'm new to the 4K/DPX workflow, and I've recently started on a feature shot 4K on the Red. Is the DPX workflow that you're talking about here the one involving REDalert and Crimson?

We are posting the film in Scratch and I've created 2K ProRes proxies for editing using FCP's L&T. My post house here in town told me they could conform without a problem with this workflow, utilizing an FCP EDL that points back to the Red Raw directories on the source drives.

Could you please briefly explain the DPX workflow. Is that something I should consider doing instead before I get too deep into editing? What are the advantages/disadvantages?

Thanks.

Damien



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Russell Lasson
Re: RedAlert preset & FCP L&T mismatch
on Sep 5, 2008 at 1:06:41 am

By finishing on Scratch, you won't need to do much else on your end. You could even be editing with DV encodes of your original footage and still be okay. As long as the Scratch guys know what they're doing, which is sounds like they do, you don't need to do any additional steps.

-Russ

Russell Lasson
Ridgeline Digital Cinema Mastering
Universal Post
Salt Lake City, UT


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gary adcock
Re: RedAlert preset & FCP L&T mismatch
on Sep 5, 2008 at 1:30:25 pm

[Uli Kunkel] "I've created 2K ProRes proxies for editing using FCP's L&T."

Uli,

just a clarification- L&T does not create proxies - those are ProRes converted R3D files, I would call them your "offline" instead of proxies when talking about a RED workflow.

"Could you please briefly explain the DPX workflow."

DPX or Digital Picture Exchange files are a just a still image that corresponds to each frame of film or in this case video. This format was designed to handle assorted information as part of the file header that can includes a vast amount of TC, Frame rate, and colorspace in additional to all of the metadata fields now being evangelized by the ASC's Dave Stump and people like me.

So each is a still image at 4096 x 2304 x 72 dpi @ 16bit color, which makes those frame at or about 45MBps per frame x 24 frames a second (that is over 1 GB per second for playback)

Rather than me ranting here, GlueTools has already posted the why's of an DPX workflow for FCP on his website http://www.gluetools.com/products_dpx.html

Gluetools is by far the easiest and fastest way to handle DPX files within FCP- allowing you to work with the highest caliber of workflow possible with film and video - from cutting on a laptop to finishing with the same process on a desktop.

gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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Russell Lasson
Re: RedAlert preset & FCP L&T mismatch
on Aug 13, 2008 at 4:35:51 pm

As far as why your files look so different from RedAlert to FCP, my guess is that you used curves in RedAlert to create your look. Those adjustments to the curves in RedAlert don't translate into the FCP log and capture window.

-Russ

Russell Lasson
Kaleidoscope Pictures
Provo, UT


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Uli Plank
Re: RedAlert preset & FCP L&T mismatch
on Aug 13, 2008 at 10:45:46 pm

That's right , but they do get tranferred with RedRushes now.

Hope this helps,

Uli

Director of the Institute of Media Research (IMF) at Braunschweig University of Arts


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Kimberly White
Re: RedAlert preset & FCP L&T mismatch
on Aug 14, 2008 at 1:12:33 am

Thanks guys,

It was the Color Space and LUT settings in RedAlert that was causing the mismatch. Once I changed those to the defaults that FCP uses it worked. I'm just not using curves for this basic pass.

RedRushes is cool, but I can't add log info. With the number of hours of footage I'm dealing with I need to be able to log and label selects before converting to ProRes, so I'm sticking with the L&T.

...for now :) It would be REALLY nice to be able to bring in the REDSpace metadata using L&T, hint hint.

Thanks for the suggestions!

Mac 10.5.4
Quad-Core Intel
8GB Memory
FCP 6.0.4


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