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RED/Kona/FCP for output to HDCAM

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Ian Karr
RED/Kona/FCP for output to HDCAM
on Jul 9, 2008 at 4:16:04 am

Hi there,

I've got about an hour of 4K 2:1 24fps footage that my network client wants output to HDCAM.

We're using an Intel Mac Pro, Kona 3 and a fast fibrechannel array. I've used REDCINE on a few test clips to get a one-light color correct and it looks great. When I render, though, the clips are merged together...and (of course) there's no audio. I drag that into FCP and the timeline only plays out to the monitor (thru KONA) when the view>video settings are 720p 5994. Even when I tell REDCINE to just make HD 1080 files, the Kona won't play them the way it does other 1080 stuff. I know this can't be right.

I thought I'd see if anyone out there can simply list the proper settings for taking 4K 2:1 24fps files and outputting them as 29.97 1080i HD. Namely:

1) What should my output settings in REDCINE be?
2) Is there a way to keep each rendered clip separate when batch-processing?
3) What should my FCP sequence settings be?
4) Is there a better way for handling audio than using the sound files off the proxy QT's
5) What should my view>video settings be?
6) Is there any special setting for the Kona control panel to output 1080i?

I know this will all probably be moot when Kona 6 comes out...but of course, the network needs their footage before "late July".

Thanks!

Ian


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David Battistella
Re: RED/Kona/FCP for output to HDCAM
on Jul 9, 2008 at 5:06:10 am



1) What should my output settings in REDCINE be?

Use the new version of RED ALERT. You can reset the look, do a one light and make new quicktimes you can drag into FCP to preserve the audio as well.

2) Is there a way to keep each rendered clip separate when batch-processing?

Apple COmpressor. Redline from RED ALERT. are just two options

3) What should my FCP sequence settings be?

RED only shoots progressive frames. So the FCP sequence needs to be progressive as well. NOT PsF but progressive and you have to maintain this throughout the pipeline.

4) Is there a better way for handling audio than using the sound files off the proxy QT's

Yes. Go the route with RA and COmpressor to embed the files in the rendered media.

5) What should my view>video settings be?

Use a Kona preset or easy set upto accomplish this.

6) Is there any special setting for the Kona control panel to output 1080i?

You ahve to transcode the Progressive to interlaced or make the preset create the interlaced file at the onset.


David





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Ian Karr
Re: RED/Kona/FCP for output to HDCAM
on Jul 9, 2008 at 6:03:42 am

David,

Thanks for the quick response. Please bear with me, I'm new to this workflow...but your answers are a bit more general than what I was hoping for . What I would really love to have is a specific, 1-2-3, if it at all exists.

Something like....encode using XXXXX software using prores422 at XXXXXX image size. sequence setting should be XXXXXXX, View>video setting should be XXXXX. Kona control panel should be set to XXXXX.

The problem I'm having is that, between the RED software, FCP and KONA there are dozens (hundreds?) of permutations. Not to mention 23.98 vs 24, and ProRes settings...I've already tried a bunch, without much success.

Also, we've been shooting progressive stuff at 24fps for years in both HDCAM and DVCPRO HD, but we've never had to go through a separate transcoding process to get to interlaced. All we had to do was make sure the view>video settings were correct and that the Kona control panel was configured properly. Even with my little test clips, I was able to view interlaced, downconverted NTSC on a reference monitor....so long as the view>preset was on DVCPRO HD. But I don't think that using the panasonic setting is the right way to do this. Is something going on with ProRes in this scenario that's different?

Finally, RED ALERT doesn't seem to be able to batch-process...unless I'm missing something. I've got 30 clips and definitely need that so I can make this an overnight deal.

Again, your help is much appreciated.

Ian




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gary adcock
Re: RED/Kona/FCP for output to HDCAM
on Jul 9, 2008 at 12:09:13 pm

[Ian Karr] "hat I would really love to have is a specific, 1-2-3, if it at all exists. "

since there are so many variables when working with RED that is really not a possible.

Since there is not any info on what you have as hardware or skills for working with even 2K content,
asking for a 1,2,3 workflow is not possible.

What is your deliverable?
What is your budget?
Have you worked with DPX files or a 444 RGB workflow before.
Do you understand 2K and 4K and what geometry that large entails.
What hardware.
How are you monitoring.

and please don't tell us your are going to do all of this on your laptop with a FW drive, with RED footage that is just not going to cut it.





gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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ian karr
Re: RED/Kona/FCP for output to HDCAM
on Jul 9, 2008 at 1:36:22 pm

Gary,

Actually, I was hoping to edit this on my iPhone with my new iKona sim card.....

Wow! Ask a simple question....

As I put in the first post, I've got the right stuff (MacPro, FCP 6.03, Kona3, Fibrechannel storage with fast arrays). And we are very experienced in high-end post.

Of course there are a lot of variables and there's no way you could know every detail of my setup, but should it matter? I wasn't asking you to tell me what I'm doing wrong...I was asking what other people are doing that works. Specifically.

Maybe I should take myself and all my variables out of the equation and re-phrase the question.....

On your Kona/FCP system(s), what are the settings YOU use to do this? All I want to do is take the original 4K 2:1 source files, do a one-light color correct, and spit out the footage to HDCAM.

Just trying to avoid re-inventing the wheel....

Thanks again for whatever help you can provide.









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David Battistella
Re: RED/Kona/FCP for output to HDCAM
on Jul 9, 2008 at 1:44:50 pm



Ian,

OK.

The easy way is:

1. Do a onelight on each file IN RA and use make new QT's in RA to save the onelight in the QT proxie
2. Drag teh QT proxies into compressor and add the appropriate ProRes 422 HQ prest to all the shots.
3. Batch render ( It's about 9:1 ratio with your machine)
4. Open FCP
5. Import rendered shots.
6. Drag to FCP TL and set sequence to 2048x1024
7. Play out via K Card to HDCAM.

simple.

David



Peace and Love :)
Read my Blog
http://blogs.creativecow.net/DavidBattistella


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Joe Huggins
Re: RED/Kona/FCP for output to HDCAM
on Aug 6, 2008 at 7:53:58 pm

David,

Responding to your July 9 post. In using Red Alert to create QT dailies, after testing that works fine. What we are not sure about is there as way to 'batch' all the magazines from the Red that day so the look is applied to all the files at one time, or do we have to manually assign that color look to each mag/file separately.

We see how we can batch render to ProRez, but we don't want to do that on a long feature, just get proxy dailies in a look for the off line.

Joe

Thanks, Film Joe


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Joe Huggins
Red Alert Dailies
on Aug 14, 2008 at 9:35:41 pm

David,

I think my previous message 8/6 got lost in an old thread, or maybe you are on vacation.

Responding to your July 9 post (RED/Kona/FCP for output to HDCAM) about one lights in RA . In using Red Alert to create QT dailies, after testing that works fine. What we are not sure about is there a way to 'batch' all the magazines from the Red that day so the look is applied to all the files at one time, or do we have to manually assign that color look to each mag/file separately.

We see how to batch render to ProRez, but we don't want to do that on a long feature, just get proxy dailies in a look for the off line. We are not going to HDCam, we want to finish in a 444 SR mode or 2K for film outs.

Joe

Thanks, Film Joe

Thanks, Film Joe


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ian karr
Re: Red Alert Dailies
on Aug 14, 2008 at 10:42:10 pm

Try REDrushes. This allows you to set up a batch with color correct info and let it run unsupervised. I'm not sure if it's bundled with the build software or available someplace else on the RED site....

Ian



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gary adcock
Re: Red Alert Dailies
on Aug 14, 2008 at 11:25:27 pm

[Joe Huggins] "What we are not sure about is there a way to 'batch' all the magazines from the Red that day so the look is applied to all the files at one time, or do we have to manually assign that color look to each mag/file separately. "

As part of the newer versions of REDALert - the App REDRushes allows you do to this very function as a batch from one RSX file. RED line versions of automater scripts are also part of the install.

I strongly suggest using the subfolder function for output from REDRushes as it properly segments the clips into named individual folders to simplify the reconnection process for the online version.

if it is just an offline why not just use the proxies instead?



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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Joe Huggins
Re: Red Alert Dailies
on Aug 15, 2008 at 3:36:01 pm

Gary,

Thanks kindly, we'll follow that approach. You guys are the best.

Joe

Thanks, Film Joe


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Joe Huggins
Re: Red Alert Dailies
on Aug 28, 2008 at 9:50:44 pm

Gary,

This is a follow up to an old question on Red Alert/ Red Rushes. We did finally test your 'batch' advice on Rushes. But, here's the big question still, as you say 'why not use proxies', we do want to do that, but we want them to have a 'dailies' look applied. If I use Red Alert, I can apply a 'look' to one file only. But while Rushes will batch a whole group and render, there is no real color control in Rushes as there is in Red Alert.

Am I missing a step? How do I add my 'dailies look' to all the magazines? Again, I only want to use the proxies for a feature workflow, but the DP wants a 'look' applied on these 'daily' proxies.

Thanks for clearing this up if I'm missing something that allows Rushes to match the Red Alert grade on the proxie.



Thanks, Film Joe


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Russell Lasson
Re: Red Alert Dailies
on Aug 29, 2008 at 3:22:04 pm

First create a look in RedAlert and save it out as a look. Then in RedRushes select the look by choosing RSX under the Look Source, the navigate to the look file that you saved in RedAlert.

-Russ

Russell Lasson
Ridgeline Digital Cinema Mastering
Universal Post
Salt Lake City, UT


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gary adcock
Re: Red Alert Dailies
on Aug 30, 2008 at 1:08:03 pm

[Joe Huggins] " But while Rushes will batch a whole group and render, there is no real color control in Rushes as there is in Red Alert. Am I missing a step? How do I add my 'dailies look' to all the magazines?"

Since these files are both installed as a package, I do not understand, as they are meant to work together in concert with each other.

An RSX file from redalert can be applied to any and all files in Red Rushes by using the Look settings and it allows you to override global settings and



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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gary adcock
Re: Red Alert Dailies (finished)
on Aug 30, 2008 at 1:09:12 pm

[Joe Huggins] " But while Rushes will batch a whole group and render, there is no real color control in Rushes as there is in Red Alert. Am I missing a step? How do I add my 'dailies look' to all the magazines?"

Since these files are both installed as a package, I do not understand, as they are meant to work together in concert with each other.

An RSX file from redalert can be applied to any and all files in Red Rushes by using the Look settings and it allows you to override global settings and even to set groups of files to process with multiple RSX luts applied



gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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gary adcock
Re: RED/Kona/FCP for output to HDCAM
on Jul 9, 2008 at 3:20:04 pm

[ian karr] "As I put in the first post, I've got the right stuff (MacPro, FCP 6.03, Kona3, Fibrechannel storage with fast arrays). And we are very experienced in high-end post.
"


Uh - that last part was not in your first post- having all of the gear does not mean that you have worked with 2k or larger production, then you know that cutting 4:4:4 material is vastly different than hacking away in DVCPRoHD.

Ian, you asked for a 1, 2, 3 workflow and as you well know if you have been doing this awhile what works for one facility does not work for another.

The simplest workflow for a highend RED delivery currently offline in FCPw/proxy footage and Online in Scratch.
(Scratch's realtime playback capability allows users to do near realtime conversion to HDCAM SR for Video masters)

The most consistent workflow for 2K+ deliverables is still the tried and true DPX route, been there done that, everyone but avid can use the original DPX's at 10bits (RED software will not do more than 10bit DPX today)

While david's suggestion is fine for a lowend deliverable - in essence he is having you do a preview grade on the proxy files then convert them to prores - essentially converting the partially debayered 8bit proxies to prores in compressor.

I prefer REDCine for the debayering and conversion to ProRes, my tests showed noticeably better images when converted there as apposed to any of the QT based methods.(also note QT conversions vary somewhat in quality depending on hardware and software in the host machine)





gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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David Battistella
Re: RED/Kona/FCP for output to HDCAM
on Jul 9, 2008 at 3:31:52 pm


Gary,

It's true. I am offering up the absolute quick and dirty. So much is changing with RED workflow every day. Crimson is now "broken" since build 16, so an FCP XML>redcine>dpx>flame/inferno, baselight, etc. etc is broken FOR NOW.

I just was trying to address the easier, quick and dirty way to get images edited and out to tape.

You could just drag _H proxies into a timeline, render it and play it out.

You are correct. It's DPX or SCRATCH. That's it, until the SDK is released and then we'll see who jumps into R3d, etc.

David



Peace and Love :)
Read my Blog
http://blogs.creativecow.net/DavidBattistella


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gary adcock
Re: RED/Kona/FCP for output to HDCAM
on Jul 9, 2008 at 12:02:51 pm

[David Battistella] "
RED only shoots progressive frames. So the FCP sequence needs to be progressive as well. NOT PsF but progressive and you have to maintain this throughout the pipeline.
"


I disagree, the most common display format is PsF and other than capturing the direct playback from a b16 camera - users should stay in the PsF format for ease of use and playback. Very, very few devices outside of Pro displays can handle 1080 " true P" materials -

RED is changing this aspect of our workflows, until now when ALL MFG's talked about shooting or delivering 1080p - they were actually delivering 1080 PsF (with exception being the Phantom camera)
There is a very big playback and capture differences between 1080 as P and the Much much much more common format called PsF.


gary adcock
Studio37
HD & Film Consultation
Post and Production Workflows
Inside look at the IoHD




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David battistella
Re: RED/Kona/FCP for output to HDCAM
on Jul 9, 2008 at 12:37:42 pm

Gary,

I agree I was trying to illustrate that the red shoots true progressive not psf.

You are right about thusbpost. To many variables to really provide a solution.

David

Peace and Love :)
Read my Blog
http://blogs.creativecow.net/DavidBattistella


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ian Karr
Re: RED/Kona/FCP for output to HDCAM
on Jul 9, 2008 at 4:51:54 pm

Gentlemen,

Thank you all for your time and effort. We're in business....Here's what we learned, in case anyone else out there is faced with the same request (CLIENT: "give us an HDCAM copy of all of the 4K 2;1 footage")

1) Take the footage into RED alert. Do the color correct. Render out QT movies using ProRes codec. Leave "crop" unchecked. Check "Scale" and set the width to 1920, the height to 1080. "Fit/Stretch" should be set to "Fit Height" to preserve aspect ratio. Unfortunately, this seems to be a one-at-a-time process for us, as we can't figure out how to make REDLINE work and can't find a manual for the software.

2) Import the files into FCP. Allow the timeline to match the footage.

3) If you're delivering/monitoring HDCAM 1080i 23.98, just set the view>video settings to 23.98 PsF. In this mode, you can even configure the KONA control panel to display 525 29.97 as a secondary (converted) format for viewing on an NTSC monitor...or downconverting to digibeta.

4) If you're delivering HDCAM 1080I at 29.97, it seems that you have to configure the view>video settings to DVCPRO HD 59.94, then set the Kona control panel to cross-convert to 29.97 HDCAM. This seems to be the only way to introduce a realtime 3:2 pulldown and get to 29.97 from the 23.98 timeline in HD. OR...you could nest the 23.98 timeline into a 29.97 one and render that...but it won't be realtime.

5) The biggest thing we've learned....Only shoot RED if you have a really good reason. If you have to do a lot of repo, color correct, etc., it's fabulous...but for the meat-and-potatotes talking head talent on green screen, it's way more efficient just shoot HDCAM or somethiing else....at least for now.


Ian



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Mike Schrengohst
Re: RED/Kona/FCP for output to HDCAM
on Aug 8, 2008 at 2:33:21 pm

Efficient? In what way? If you have to rent a deck and digitize footage that is very inefficient.
I just wrapped shooting my first spots with RED. At the end of the shoot I had 200 gigs of
RAW files ready to edit. No digitizing needed. If you shot with an HDCAM your choice is 23.98 or 29.97,
correct? You have that choice using RED as well. Well you actually can shoot higher fps in 2K if you want.
But the beauty to RED is having the ability to output 4K frames in a log format that give you far more
control than an 8 bit 1080 file you get after HDCAM digitizing. In these spots we just finished for fuddruckers it was talking heads for the most part. We did a few days of food shoots and that is where
the RAW 4K format shined. Having the ability to pan, zoom and rotate and CC all at once was lovely.
We did all the off-lining in FCP and then I used After Effects for CC and encoding to QT 10 bit uncompressed. We bought the whole project into an AVID Nitrus DS system for final CC and layback to HDCAM. The spots are being distributed by DG fast Channel and if you have a Fuddruckers near you, you might see the spots in a few weeks.


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