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Storage of Red Footage

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Fiona Cairns
Storage of Red Footage
on Jun 3, 2008 at 2:52:46 pm

Hi

I'm about to start assisting on a feature shot on RED. They will be using the 8GB Flash Cards and I'm planning to copy the contents to an external drive and then copy again to another drive as a back up.

I've been looking into hard drives that I could use.

Does anyone know if it's a bad idea to daisy chain up to 5 TB Lacies together?

I've been told that they will film about 2 hours of 3K footage a day for 50 days in total so I think I need about 4500GB to store the footage and the same again to back it up. This doesn't include the space that I will need for the Avid media files that I will be creating or the sound that will be recorded seperately.

Is there a better solution than linking up seperate hard drives? I don't have much experience with working with this much footage at once.

Any advice would be very welcome.

Thanks

Fiona


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: Storage of Red Footage
on Jun 3, 2008 at 4:35:32 pm

I"d not use consumer firewire drives. You should back up NOT on hard drives only. I'd suggest you use LTO tape drives for this. Quantum sells them. Far more reliable than hard drives.

If you are going to playback from FW drives, I'd look at the ones made by G-Tech, Weibetech, Other World Computing... any of these would be more robust solutions I think.

Might consider a RAID for the edit instead of FW drives though. Something with redunancy (RAID 5 or 6) that way you'll have faster and much more reliable drives. At a cost though. G-Tech, CalDigit, Ciproco, and others all make these RAID systems.

Jerry



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Brandon Lima
Re: Storage of Red Footage
on Jun 3, 2008 at 8:45:49 pm

The best option would be a 5 drive hardware raid tower, and then backup to LTO.

-Brandon



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Gary Alan
Re: Storage of Red Footage
on Jun 4, 2008 at 12:32:35 am

We back up to LTO-4 tapes.


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: Storage of Red Footage
on Jun 4, 2008 at 1:56:36 pm

HOw much more costly is LTO-4 than LTO 3? Is it a ton faster?

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer

Author: "Jerry Hofmann on Final Cut Pro 4" Click here

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO, CD's


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Russell Lasson
Re: Storage of Red Footage
on Jun 4, 2008 at 5:55:09 pm

LTO-4 tape stock is about $115/tape. LTO-3 is about $45/tape. We have an HP LTO-4 tape drive and I haven't noticed a huge speed difference between the two tapes. It seems pretty similar to FW400 speeds.

My question is if people have been using the hardware 2:1 compression for backups. I've been afraid to use it so I've just stuck with the native capacities (800GB or 400GB).

-Russ

Russell Lasson
Kaleidoscope Pictures
Provo, UT


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: Storage of Red Footage
on Jun 4, 2008 at 6:26:32 pm

Shoot... try it and report back on your findings? Maybe just a couple of shots or something, then try to bring them back to hard drives and see if the compression will work. I too would love to know the answer to this question Russell!.

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer

Author: "Jerry Hofmann on Final Cut Pro 4" Click here

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO, CD's


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Russell Lasson
Re: Storage of Red Footage
on Jun 4, 2008 at 6:45:56 pm

I'll try it and post back if it works. I really have no reason to believe it wouldn't. I guess what I've been worried about is if in 10 years from now, if I've compressed the video files on the tape if it would be more likely to have problems. I don't know.

I'll see if I can find some answers to that because for $115 for 1.6TB would be rockin!

-Russ

Russell Lasson
Kaleidoscope Pictures
Provo, UT


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: Storage of Red Footage
on Jun 4, 2008 at 6:51:08 pm

If it works now I'd think it would also work later. Data compresssion/decompresion is what we're talking about, right? so how could that change much from the original code they're using now? Don't think there would be a problem...

But do report back! I wanna know.

Jerry


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Rob Grauert
Re: Storage of Red Footage
on Jun 9, 2008 at 3:01:38 pm

Hello,

What is this LTO you guys are talking about. I'm assuming by what I've read in this thread that it is a way to back up footage, but what is it exactly. I looked on wikipedia, but didn't get much.

How does it work? Is it just like tape?
Is it only used for high end video?
Does this hook up directly to the camera?
Would it be pointless to hook up with a Canon GL2?
Is it reusable like a hard drive?
Can you still get drop out? I hate drop out.
How do you get the video into your computer?
If all these questions are annoying, where can I read about this product?

I'm a student still, and no one has ever mentioned something like this at school. Sounds interesting though.

Thanks guys

Robert J. Grauert, Jr.


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Gary Gowman
Re: Storage of Red Footage
on Jun 10, 2008 at 1:50:13 am

We use the HP StorageWorks Ultrium 960 Tape Drive. It uses SCSI to connect to one of our Mac Pros. We also use Retrospect software to make the backups.

Gary Gowman-Video Director
Louisiana Media Services
4K, 2K/DI, HDcamSR
Assimilate Scratch and FCS2/Kona3 Suites
Full Audio Production


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Russell Lasson
Re: Storage of Red Footage
on Jun 10, 2008 at 4:29:18 pm

Are you using hardware compression on your backups? If so, is it working out for you?

-Russ

Russell Lasson
Kaleidoscope Pictures
Provo, UT


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Gary Gowman
Re: Storage of Red Footage
on Jun 12, 2008 at 5:46:03 pm

too early to tell. I also started working here a month ago. We have a new RED movie project that started two weeks ago and I will not be able to see until I conform at the end of the post prod. on Scratch. That could be months from now.

Gary Gowman-Video Director
Louisiana Media Services
4K, 2K/DI, HDcamSR
Assimilate Scratch and FCS2/Kona3 Suites
Full Audio Production


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: Storage of Red Footage
on Jun 14, 2008 at 6:01:57 pm

Here's one: http://www.quantum.com/Products/TapeDrives/LTOUltrium/LTO-3A/Index.aspx

Search this site, and the google DLT Drive. LTO tape drive etc. It's data storage on tape cartridges. Not video tape... They work like FW drives and you change tapes that cost 50 bucks or more.. depending. Need it for archiving any tapeless workflows.

Jerry


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Russell Lasson
Re: Storage of Red Footage
on Jul 11, 2008 at 9:05:26 pm

Well I tried using the hardware compression on the LTO-4. I had 1.5TB of media and project files. It didn't do a 2:1 compression. It actually took a LTO-4 tape and an LTO-3 to make it work. So it compressed 1.6TB down to about 1.1TB.

I guess that was because some of the files were already compressed.

-Russ

Russell Lasson
Kaleidoscope Pictures
Provo, UT


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: Storage of Red Footage
on Jul 12, 2008 at 3:39:49 am

Well, Digital video is already "compressed" so further compression really isn't that dramatic usually. Still, you saved some space though... It uncompresses and restores OK?

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer

Author: "Jerry Hofmann on Final Cut Pro 4" Click here

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO, CD's


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Russell Lasson
Re: Storage of Red Footage
on Jul 12, 2008 at 5:52:50 am

I didn't detect any errors, but it's hard to check 1.5TB of data for errors.

But I did write some raw RED footage to a tape with the hardware compression and it restored fine. I even used the restored footage to take through REDCINE without any problems.

So it seems pretty acceptable to use the hardware compression, but I can still understand if people decided not to because it is one more thing that could go wrong and in some cases it might not buy you that much savings in space.

-Russ

Russell Lasson
Kaleidoscope Pictures
Provo, UT


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Jerry Hofmann
Re: Storage of Red Footage
on Jul 13, 2008 at 5:45:17 pm

There's wisdom in the fact that less is more I'd suggest anytime you can afford to do it.


Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer

Author: "Jerry Hofmann on Final Cut Pro 4" Click here

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO, CD's


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Mike Nike
Re: Storage of Red Footage
on Sep 18, 2008 at 8:33:45 pm

Hi,

I am about to start editing a short film that was shot on red. I was told by my DP to back up everything on Lacie hard drives which i what I currently have. I know the RAID is recommended for editing with red footage, but would Lacie 1 TB firewire 800 suffice? I already spent so much money I would rather not have to buy a RAID on top of everything, but if you guys feel it makes a huge difference then I am willing to.

Thank for any help.



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Jerry Hofmann
Re: Storage of Red Footage
on Sep 19, 2008 at 2:00:24 am

What do you intend to be the format delivery?

Jerry

Apple Certified Trainer

Author: "Jerry Hofmann on Final Cut Pro 4" Click here

8-Core 3.0 Intel Mac Pro, Dual 2 gig G5, AJA Kona SD, AJA Kona 2, Huge Systems Array UL3D, AJA Io HD, 17" MBP, Matrox MXO, CD's


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Aaron Price
Re: Storage of Red Footage
on Jan 8, 2010 at 2:30:26 pm

I think that everyone should take a look at using Blu-ray technology to store these types of videos. We have utilized this commercialized technology which has been tested to last 50 to 100 years (with advanced testing) and is reliable, inexpensive, and very innovative. Please do not put this type of data on Tape Drives which are magnetic and fail all of the time. It will be good for a few years but after about 5 years goes downhill fast.

-Aaron Price
Hie Electronics


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