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Heal my Vegas Anxiety with Rendering

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Derek Charles
Heal my Vegas Anxiety with Rendering
on Feb 16, 2016 at 11:29:56 pm

Hello Vegas Pro's -
I have only been 3 or so years with Vegas 11-12-13 -
I want to speed up my work flow - I have now reached the point to come to you -
I want to know that I am safe of quality loss -

I want to stabilize/color my footage how I want it, then export the one big file -
Then I want to re-import that edited footage on a new timeline to do more more precise cutting/trimming - even more coloring -

This way that saves me CPU power when continuing to edit on my slower laptop (Intel 2 Core Duo 8 gig ram)
I'm familiar with nesting but that defeats my purpose since dragging from one project to another will mess up my stabilization (Mercali) -

My anxiety comes from bitrates, I think... - well, export settings...

I film with a Sony a7s - 50 Megabits/second
Never in 4k, Always 1080 60p or 24p
I have always rendered with the preset named "Internet 1080 HD 1080p"
Variable Bit Rate is checked -
with the max bitrate of 24Mb
and an average of 12Mb

Is that a quality loss already since the a7s does 50Mb?
That being said, if I re-imported that rendered clip into a new project - did more work on it - exported with the same (Internet HD 1080p" preset, am I good?
I'm thinking of this like photo compression, but as long as I'm rendering then re-importing 1080p footage with those presets, I can essentially do that over and over again without any quality loss? -

Thanks
-Derek


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Wayne Waag
Re: Heal my Vegas Anxiety with Rendering
on Feb 17, 2016 at 12:07:04 am

I can essentially do that over and over again without any quality loss?

No you can't. There will be significant generational loss doing it your way. For best quality, you should have but one final render.

Your real problem is this, however.

edit on my slower laptop (Intel 2 Core Duo 8 gig ram

If at all possible, you need to consider upgrading to a much more powerful computer system. I have a 9 year old Core 2 duo laptop and was unfortunately forced to use it for a few weeks. Unfortunately, watching the grass grow is almost as fast. If you simply "can't" upgrade, then you should consider the use of proxies. You could create low resolution proxies, do your editing, and once completed, swap back the original files for your final render.

wwaag


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Derek Charles
Re: Heal my Vegas Anxiety with Rendering
on Feb 17, 2016 at 1:12:15 am

I've just done a test and have saved two separate screen shots - one from the final render and one from the render re-imported then exported again -
I'm not seeing any quality difference - even when pixel peeping -
I'm failing to see how exporting the same file with the same settings could degrade quality - since it's indeed the same -
I understand that uploading to youtube/vimeo etc compresses that file - to which I would never re-import and work with - but fail to see how the original would.

Derek


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John Rofrano
Re: Heal my Vegas Anxiety with Rendering
on Feb 17, 2016 at 2:34:19 am

[Derek Charles] "I'm failing to see how exporting the same file with the same settings could degrade quality - since it's indeed the same -"
Because it's not the same depending on the codec used to compress it. If you were using a lossless codec (which you are not) you would get the identical output, but you are using a "lossy" codec. That means that the compression algorithm guess at some information and throws other information away. What that means is that over repeated renders, you will see the effects of an average, of an average, of an average, of the image. It's like editing a JPG file over and over again. After a while, the compression artifacts will degrade the image.

I wouldn't worry too much about losing quality with only one or two extra renders. If you are really worried about losing quality, you should render your files to CineForm AVI which is a near-lossless codec but many use Sony MXF with the HD422 1920x1080-60i 50 Mbps or similar template. This will keep the bit rate high enough that you shouldn't have to worry about degradation over a couple of renders.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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Derek Charles
Re: Heal my Vegas Anxiety with Rendering
on Feb 17, 2016 at 3:23:28 am

Thank you - Codec - that's was what was escaping me. -
Just good to hear once or twice render over isn't a significant loss in my world of worry -
I would only just export the stabilized trimmed colored clips once over to work with again.
This saves me time because Mercalli Stabilizer will have to be re-analyzed if I trim the beginning or any part of the clip, or event, but is fine if I trim it from the end -
That way the stabilized/color cpu can be over with once over rendered, and I can concentrate more on placement/rhythm - for my stlye of slow computing, ha
Now I can save myself some edit time/power now - worry healed.

Thanks to the both of you on replying. Everything I've needed to learn about Vegas so far came from this site - It was time I'd joined today. - I see another poster by mine that was unanswered - and I actually have the same question so I'll see if I can help him out while staying on the same thread.


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Wayne Waag
Re: Heal my Vegas Anxiety with Rendering
on Feb 17, 2016 at 2:46:10 am

If you're happy with the workflow you described, then do it that way--that's really all that matters. However, you asked the question "will there be a loss in quality" and the answer is still yes. You start with camera footage recorded at 50 mbps, stabilize, do color correction, and then render at 12 mbps. While there is no problem with doing a project in stages (I do it all the time), I suspect that most editors would agree that the initial render should be to a digital intermediate format and not a final delivery format. I like using XAVC S as an intermediate since it maintains a relatively high bit rate (60 mbps) and doesn't create large file sizes so its suitable for archiving as well. Others prefer using a lossless codec. While you certainly CAN use a 12 mbps delivery format as your intermediate, once you do further color correction and effects processing, there WILL be additional loss of quality. Whether you can "see" that loss or it's meaningful is a question only you can answer. If it seems OK to you, then you've answered your own question.

wwaag


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Derek Charles
Re: Heal my Vegas Anxiety with Rendering
on Feb 17, 2016 at 4:23:08 am

Ah yes indeed. Thank you - I'm starting to get it
So my XAVC S bitrate is fine to stabilize/grade the first time to a lossless or near lossless intermediate file -
but why would my final render want to be the Internet 1080 12Mb to upload to Vimeo ?
Because of file size? People have complained that my loading times are long - not their internet speed's fault but my 3 minute video should be closer to 100MB than 500MB


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Wayne Waag
Re: Heal my Vegas Anxiety with Rendering
on Feb 17, 2016 at 5:54:56 am

Because of file size?

Exactly. You want to have the best quality in the smallest file size. Unless you are fortunate to have a "super-fast" upload capability, this becomes a necessity.

wwaag


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Derek Charles
Re: Heal my Vegas Anxiety with Rendering
on Feb 18, 2016 at 12:18:48 am

I've exported an XAVC S HD 1080 Long-GOP
It is 7 minutes long and 2.92 GB in size
It seems this will be a good intermediate for me to work with.

So, When exporting to the preset Internet HD 1080 - its now lowering to 12Mb for web loading time -
it will obviously lower the size - but should I change that to 25Mb or something in the middle or closer to my a7s' 50Mb? Is it sort of a sweet spot kind of thing? Like adjusting latency from an audio interface?

Lastly - perhaps either of you good fellas can save me and another guy over at this thread linked here - haha -
https://forums.creativecow.net/thread/24/996798

Thanks
Derek


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Wayne Waag
Re: Heal my Vegas Anxiety with Rendering
on Feb 18, 2016 at 4:11:15 pm

but should I change that to 25Mb or something in the middle or closer to my a7s' 50Mb?

The higher the bit rate the better, although you have to weigh that against the time to upload and the time YT takes to process. Many of us are stuck with relatively low upload speed (mine is 6 Mbps), so I try to minimize bit rate. For lower bit rate renders, there are better encoders, notably Handbrake. Here is a link to an excellent tutorial on using Handbrake for Youtube.



There is also a script available that permits Handbrake renders directly from Vegas without an intermediate. http://www.vegasvideo.de/vegas-2-handbrake-en It takes some time to set up, but is well worth the effort. The consensus seems to be that Handbrake is much better for lower bit rate renders. However, at higher bit rates it really doesn't make that much of a difference.

wwaag


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Derek Charles
Re: Heal my Vegas Anxiety with Rendering
on Feb 23, 2016 at 11:09:52 pm

Just noticed when I export my 60p as the Internet Main Concept 1080 preset it changes it to 30frames. Vimeo has just started accepting 60fps playback, so I just changed that 30 to 60 -
But a lot of friends have told me the the audio plays back but the video comes to a standstill while the audio plays...not buffer. Even my fast and hard drive free galaxy s5 phone cant handle the playback. I would expect this from 4k but not 60p. Should I st alright just staying with the 30 frames? That will help in loading time as well, correct?


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