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Building proxies for Atomos Shogun 4K footage

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Tim Neighbors
Building proxies for Atomos Shogun 4K footage
on Jan 29, 2016 at 11:51:27 pm

I really like vegasaur's "proxy builder" app, but when I use it on Shogun footage (which has 4 channels of audio), the proxy files do not have audio, presumably because I only used 1 of the 4 audio channels for this interview. I'd love to figure out a good workflow for my shogun's footage without having to manually create proxies and replace them one by one at the end.

The real reason I'm having to replace it is because I can't store meta data in the shogun footage apparently. It drops my trimmer markers and regions (as it does with XAVC footage from my Sony A7s).

Sorry to bring up 2 different issues. The real task at hand is the proxy builder situation, but if somebody has a fix for the meta data issue, that would be nice as well.

I'm using Vegas 13 on Windows 7 64bit with Vegasaur 2.1. The Shogun footage is 4K Prores 422.

Thanks in advance for any help or ideas!


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John Rofrano
Re: Building proxies for Atomos Shogun 4K footage
on Jan 31, 2016 at 1:19:51 am

[Tim Neighbors] "I'm using Vegas 13 on Windows 7 64bit with Vegasaur 2.1. The Shogun footage is 4K Prores 422."
Why aren't you using the proxy workflow that's already built into Vegas Pro 13? Is that not working for you?

Personally, my advice would be to buy a iMac Retina 5K and edit with Final Cut Pro X if you want to record 4K with the Atomos Shogun. That devices was developed specifically to make it easy for Mac editors to work directly with Apple ProRes 422 footage without transcoding. If you want to stick with a PC, you should buy a recording device that's PC friendly. You're just making it harder on yourself, but I understand you already bought the device.

Try using Vegas Pro 13's proxy workflow.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Aaron Star
Re: Building proxies for Atomos Shogun 4K footage
on Jan 31, 2016 at 9:52:32 am

I do not have one of these devices or any sample clips to test, but here are a couple ideas I had when reading this.

I would think you could use the Region batch render script that is free for vegas. Drop the prores clips on the timeline which should show the 4 audio channels below it. Then map those channels to either XDCAM-EX(8-bit Proxy), HDCAM-sr-lite(10-bit proxy), or simply convert the Prores to XAVC-intra. All three of those formats allow for more than 4 channels of audio. Those MXF formats will also not have the QT limits of Prores. Once converted, you should get an XDCAM proxy file with 4 channels of audio that mirror the prores mapping.

The meta data is another issue, and I am not sure how that information is stored. A sample file would help to try and determine that.

It is unfortunate that Sony does not make an Atmos like device that records XAVC-I. A device like that would have been released 1st by Sony in the past. They probably fear that a device like that would cut into their higher end camera and devices.

The FCP MAC or just using AVID with that device might be a better choice.

Have you tried Resolve or the Catalyst products to see if they support the meta data on conversion XAVC-i?


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Tim Neighbors
Re: Building proxies for Atomos Shogun 4K footage
on Feb 1, 2016 at 8:25:16 pm

Thanks for your response Aaron.
Hearing these recommended proxy codecs definitely gives me some good new info.
When you say, "Then map those channels to ..." do you mean to right click on the files in my Project media bin and "replace" them with their batch-rendered proxy file? I'm hoping for a way to do this without having to replace media one file at a time, since that could be quite time consuming with some shoots. The Vegasaur app is a great option that does this but unfortunately it doesn't work with the Shogun audio. I've sent a sample clip to Vegasaur and they are looking into it.

Sony's built-in proxy method works great (thanks John Rofrano), but it doesn't fix my meta data issue. vegas stores this info in .sfl files next to the source clips. I haven't tried using any Catalyst products yet.


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Tim Neighbors
Re: Building proxies for Atomos Shogun 4K footage
on Feb 1, 2016 at 8:12:43 pm

Thanks John.
I'm embarrassed to say I didn't even know about vegas's build in proxy method. It seems to work like a charm so far. Unfortunately it doesn't solve my meta data issue.

I bought the Atomos Shogun since it was pushed by Sony as a great partner for their camera, the A7s. I also inquired with Atomos about it's compatibility with Vegas before buying and they gave me a green light. Kinda sad to now hear that this product is really for FCP users. Sometimes I feel like Sony doesn't look out for the users of their own video editing software.


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John Rofrano
Re: Building proxies for Atomos Shogun 4K footage
on Feb 2, 2016 at 2:34:47 pm
Last Edited By John Rofrano on Feb 2, 2016 at 2:40:12 pm

[Tim Neighbors] "Unfortunately it doesn't solve my meta data issue. "
What is your metadata problem? In your original post you said, "...It drops my trimmer markers and regions". I can add markers to ProRes 422 footage in the trimmer and they save just fine. Is that not working for you? I don't have 4K ProRes files to test with but HD ProRes files work for me.
[Tim Neighbors] "I also inquired with Atomos about it's compatibility with Vegas before buying and they gave me a green light."
That's because it is compatable. The Atomos shoots Apple Prores 422 and Vegas Pro can edit Apple ProRes 422 so they were correct. It does work. The reason it's not recommended is because Vegas Pro has a limit to how many QuickTime files it can work with. But if you stay within that limit, it all works. The Atmos people would not know about the limit unless they use Vegas Pro because Sony doesn't document it but when you get upwards of around 100 QuickTime files Vegas Pro starts to lock up.

You didn't say why you are building proxies. if it's because your computer isn't powerful enough to edit 4K? or will Vegas Pro not read these files?
[Tim Neighbors] "Kinda sad to now hear that this product is really for FCP users."
It's not built just for FCP users. It's built for editors who work in Apple ProRes 422. That could be any editor on a Mac using Avid, Adobe CC, or FCP. Normally, Mac editors would convert all of their camera footage to ProRes 422 to make editing easier. Products like the Atmos avoid that step by shooting in Apple ProRes 422 to begin with. A PC editor would never convert their footage to ProRes 422 because it's impossible to do legally on a PC because there is no Apple approved ProRes encoder. That's why it's not an idea product for PC users. It's providing an optimal Mac-based workflow.

It should be pointed out that asking the manufacturer if something will work or not, is not the same as asking if this is the best choice for your workflow. ;-)

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Mordy Gilden
Re: Building proxies for Atomos Shogun 4K footage
on Jan 17, 2017 at 6:26:20 am

Hey, sorry to revive an old thread but I stumbled upon this while doing some midnight research on making more edit-friendly proxy options out of 4K footage.

I own a couple of Atomos recorders and work almost exclusively with Vegas. I don't know if it makes a difference, but Atomos does NOT only record Prores. These days all of their recording products are licensed out of the box to record both ProRes and Avid's DNxHD. I found my PC is much happier with the Avid files, and have them all set to DNxHD by default. I was aware that Vegas sometimes chokes on ProRes, but does it matter if it is another codec that happens to exist in a MOV container? I thought I had effectively gotten away with using my Atomos recorders by picking the more PC friendly codec, but now I realize that its because I usually use the recorders for long-form sessions (hour long concerts, etc), and only import a handful of files at the end.

Now you got me wondering, is Avid's codec any better than Apple's in regard to Vegas? Will it still choke once I load 100+ files if that ever happens? I know DNxHD can also exist as an MXF, and is not exclusively a quicktime format. Is QT being invoked simply because of the mov extension? I wonder then, can I just batch rename the extensions to MXF and then have it be universally friendly with Vegas? The Atomos recorders are too useful and I refuse to believe that they can't work harmoniously with my favorite editor of all.


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Tim Neighbors
Re: Building proxies for Atomos Shogun 4K footage
on Jan 19, 2017 at 1:59:09 am

I had the same issue with the Avid codec as well as the Prores codec. As soon as I hit about 15 files on the timeline, they all went blank.

However, since Vegas 14, this might no longer be an issue. Possibly because Vegas 14 has quicktime natively, though I'm not sure. I think I tested it when I first got Vegas 14, and if I remember right, it's no longer an issue. But I haven't shot anything with the shogun for a while, so I'm a little uncertain. If you are able to test it out on 14, I would be interested to hear your results.


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