Are Sony Vegas skills marketable?
Is there a market for Sony Vegas Pro editing skills? By this I mean is there are there full-time job opportunities for someone who can expertly edit with Sony Vegas at a professional production house. I've seen job listings for After Effects, Premiere, Avid and even Final Cut but never Vegas.
I've taken some online courses and was able to get up to speed with Premiere and Final Cut but I've got about 10 years invested with Vegas and know it's ins and outs far better that those other NLEs.
I'd love to hear the groups thoughts on this. Thanks.
Yes its marketable, but the sad truth of the matter is that the whole
industry is caught up in this utter nonsense that it has to be Final Cut
or Premiere as those are the real Pro and industry standards....
Many, and i mean many are so blinded and misguided in this industry
i dont even know where to start Rob.
You just stick to what you are good at, and don't let others dictates
your profession and the tools you use to get the job done, cause in the
end that's all that really matters!
Steve Rhoden (Cow Leader)
Film Maker & VFX Artist.
Owner of Filmex Creative Media.
Samples of my Work and Company can be seen here:
Well if the intent is to procure employment as a freelance editor, then one needs to be proficient in all NLE editors. That is if the intent if to go to existing production houses. This would include Vegas, Grass Valley Edius, Open Shot, Lightwave and even Resolve. But knowing how to use the tool at hand does not replace the feeling of timing and pacing. The act of cutting is easy, pick a tool, any tool will do. Know when to cut what to cut when to place in or take out. When to withhold or show information to the viewer, that is the art of editing. If you have the sense of timing then you can dictate the tools you use. What those who follow you feel is the correct tool is entirely up to them.
"then one needs to be proficient in all NLE editors"
That right there Russ, reminds me of an old saying:
"Jack of all trades - Master of none"
Trust me on that one!
Steve Rhoden (Cow Leader)
Film Maker & VFX Artist.
Owner of Filmex Creative Media.
Samples of my Work and Company can be seen here:
Having worked in the feature film biz as an asst editor, let me say that, while Vegas Pro can give you tech/editing skills from practice, the program itself isn't durable enough to withstand the daily stresses of a professional workflow. Only Avid, Premiere, and an older version of FCP proved their merits on that account.
Vegas is good for short programs, but I would never bet a clients' deadline on it, for it is WAY too unstable.
"Vegas is to unstable" I don't find this to be true.
people will by FCP hardware specified by apple.
people will buy AVID hardware with strict requirements by AVID.
people buy Vegas, then build a DIY PC or attempt to run some deal of the week system/laptop they found because they liked the price. People also buy NV cards so they can run games better, or because that's what Premier recommends. Then people complain when Vegas crashes or does not perform optimally.
Error free hardware, proper CPU/GPU selection, and optimized data paths are just as critical for Vegas, as AVID and Apple spend on their specs.
My experience with AVID and FCP has been just as filled with crashes and beach balls.
Most the producers already has a workflow in mind which specifies NLE and formats. Vegas generally does not make the list, but that does not mean its not a fully qualified product able to do the job.
There are so many reason why one NLE is used and others are not. Most of the time its due to ignorance. I can remember someone telling me Vegas is 8bit only. All I could do is laugh at them, and then asked how ACES could be supported if it was 8-bit only. NLEs are chosen for legacy corporate/union reasons(AVID), religious and marketing gloss reasons (Apple).
Sony Vegas is durable enough to withstand the daily stresses of a
professional workflow Glenn. You working in feature film biz as an
asst editor means nothing!..because you have no true knowledge of what you speak!
And individuals such as you, is whom i spoke about earlier in my post,
whom are misguided and think FCP and Avid is the only NLE that can get
things done in a true Professional environment.
Steve Rhoden (Cow Leader)
Film Maker & VFX Artist.
Owner of Filmex Creative Media.
Samples of my Work and Company can be seen here:
Hi, i'm afraid you're wrong. I edited two full feature films at 90 minutes each, did the 5.1 surround mix, color correction, titling etc. all in vegas pro.
To make things smoother, i edited each scene separately and then rendered a cineform file to a master timeline (less processor intensive than nesting). Each stem had its own bus for dialog, sfx, music, ambience in the master timeline. This was in vegas pro 10, the next film will be in pro 13.
These were theatrical films projected at a provincial level here in Canada. You know what, no one cared what it was edited on, except the technical people who showed up for the Q & A. The audience were busy following the story, that's all what it should be about.
Good for you. Quit with the "you're wrong" stuff. It's very rude and divisive. It's also taking what I said out of context.
I didn't say cutting a feature with Vegas was impossible in the technical realm. I said it's difficult to cut complex, long-form projects with Vegas, and many people have echoed this sentiment long before me. And keep in mind, I love Vegas, but it has had limitations for which I've had to devise countless workarounds...kinda like your having to render each scene to its own Cineform file, something you don't have to do with Sequences in Avid, and which doesn't allow a facile cutting approach. Vegas is kludgy in that respect. Kudos to your features success, but no American financier or production company would allow its use. I know this because I've queried this to many a post-production supervisor, just out of curiosity, and have gotten the same answer: "No way." Again, keep in mind, these are both studio and indie films here in the US; I can't vouch for how Canadian productions underwrite their films.
I will say, it sounds like these were micro-budget features you put out, as everyone I know mixes their 5.1 tracks in professional facilities, none of which would use Vegas as their main tool/board.
Your concluding note about the audience only caring about story/character is obvious and ubiquitous and does not need restating; it only comes off as patronizing. However, the money people DO care what you cut on, and how much downtime the cutting room will incur, how quickly you can output materials for the other departments on an hourly basis, etc. In my experience, Avid is made for such demands because of its networking capabilities between workstations, something that is lacking and laughable in a Vegas environment. If you're doing all the work yourself? Fine. But that's not the reality of even the lowest budget films I've worked on.
Hi Glenn, I was replying based on your "the program itself isn't durable enough to withstand the daily stresses of a professional workflow". But you see it did, day in and day out on a professional theatrical film for a paying audience. If big studios prefer Avid etc. Good for THEM. It does not mean that every professional has to follow suit, unless they're forced to use that specific tool for the job.
I render to cineform because it is easier for me, it's actually easier on any editing system unless it's a networked render farm in which most INDIES do not use, I never mentioned that nesting created problems, it is my PERSONAL workflow. Vegas never picked up unfortunately with the "big boys" and that's ok.
There are enough Indies garnering awards and distribution using tools such as vegas pro and if a picture is picked up by a major studio which prefers to do their own final cut, color correction, etc. One can easily export an AAF, XML.. from Vegas Pro.
Staying on top as per the original subject. Is vegas pro marketable, not so much the software but rather the techniques used by the editor.
Are there any majors (feature film or TV shows) using Sony Vegas in their workflow?
Ok Rob, here is the thing. All skills are marketable. All that is needed it to find the market and the individual customer base in that market.
Go and read this post by Douglas Spotted Eagle on Mar 15, 2009 at 7:11:22 am
The post will explain the situation
The question should be what is your plan for your future. Keep in mind that TV is declining in popularity and newsrooms are disappearing. For film, Studio or independent, the decision is made long before you get hired as the chief cutter. Chances are great that at best an assistant editor position will be offered long before you get to sit in the big chair.
Your NLE training will come from where ever you can find a position. It is doubtful that a multi million Dollar production will be placed in the hands of an unknow.
First and foremost, LEARN YOUR CRAFT.
This whole argument is akin to the camera dialogs on which is better has greater pixel count, dynamic range and so forth. It's all hype and tripe.
The best camera to use it the one you can get or already have. Make your film and edit it with whatever you can afford. Run it up the flagpole and see if anyone salutes.
I assure you, as a producer, I will not engage in a discussion at to what was used to film or edit your demo reel.IF I like your work you will be hired as a assistant who will catalogue, archive and prepare the files for use by the editor. If you fit into the team, I may decide to use your services and assign smaller projects to you. But the main point is that I have to like you more than your work. That is the secret.
As to vegas stability, it works fine and I find Vegas to be less rigid in file handling. In fact in my facility it is the preferred choice. I do 15 second commercial and independent feature length productions. No hiccups since 2003.
WHen a client walks in I make certain all the usual name brands are are open and visible on the desktop. With the project procured things go back to running mode with Vegas as a cutter and Fusion as a compositor. My projects get out the door and monies come in the door without the use of ransomware.
But that is another argument.
Final statement. LEARN YOUR CHOPS.
[Rob Cioffi] "Are there any majors (feature film or TV shows) using Sony Vegas in their workflow?"
Nope. And the reason for this is quite simple: There is no real-time tech support, no house calls should something fail, or go down -- which is ESSENTIAL to feature post-production, because an hour or more down means thousands of dollars down the drain (salaries, deadlines with other expensive depts like sound/vfx/DI etc). On features, your machines are covered by a tech support house, like insurance, something Vegas will never have, especially now that Sony won't be updating the software any further.
People here can debate Vegas' robustness all they want, but the above is the sad truth. As for marketable skills, you can improve your editing on anything. Editing is editing. Like anything, do more of it and get better.
And look -- I've used Vegas since 2003! Personally, I love it...for personal projects, because I have time to endure its instability (even on a powerful home system I had built with Vegas' specs carefully in hand). When confronted with an hour long project, I found it necessary to restrict my usage of Vegas to audio only, and use Avid Xpress Pro because of its rock-solid architecture (and this on a system NOT built to Avid's specs!).
Will I continue using Vegas on short, simple projects? Absolutely. It's fun. But feature films are a business that require 24/7 attention, and that's not possible with Vegas Pro. I've actually used Vegas Pro in a professional cutting room, to help out an editor with some audio issues. But that's as far as that prospect ventured.
Btw, while we're all proud thumping our chests here, about how others blindly follow "the market sheep" on which software to buy, let's not forget that many of our best film artists cut their films with Premiere and FCP -- Fincher, Coen Bros -- and have no problem changing hands when one proves unreliable. At the end of the day, 'creating' something in a multi-million dollar environment requires software that performs, and is -- while not perfect, not bulletproof -- DEPENDABLE, backed by professional engineers who are ready to attack bugs and hardware upon a phone call from the cutting room.
I do not know of specific ones, there are a few showcased on sonycreativesoftware's website under showcase. That does not mean it lists all shows being produced on the platform. It is heavily used by Indies.
If one is applying for a job in a post house, yes they were likely need someone to know Avid, Premiere or Final Cut.
If you're an Indie, nothing beats vegas for editing video and mixing your audio "protools" style without leaving vegas pro.
I won't argue with that, as Vegas is my go-to for shorts and such. It's the audio foundation that swayed me in the first place. I wish it had better exchange built in...AAF and OMF...which I've tried but is wanting in its execution...
Hi Rob. Do you have any of your work online and would you be interested in having occasional editing gigs thrown your way? I am a busy vegas editor in Los Angeles and I'm looking for a good editor (preferably who works with Vegas) to help me out with excess work.
send me a message at email@example.com if interested.
Just sent you a link and contact info. Have a great night..
Not to intrude, but I too am Los Angeles based, working in Vegas Pro. You can see a few projects (including a complex short film) I post-produced entirely in Vegas Pro 11. Throw me your email and I'll send you the YouTube channel.
Hi Glenn. Please send it to me at firstname.lastname@example.org.
[Rob Cioffi] "I've seen job listings for After Effects, Premiere, Avid and even Final Cut but never Vegas."I guess you answered your own question: If you can't find any jobs requiring Vegas Pro skills then it's not a very marketable skill is it?
Yes, you might find some jobs but the majority will require skills in one of the top three (Avid, Final Cut Pro, & Adobe CC) as you have seen. If you are looking to make a living as an editor for hire, it's best to learn one or more of the top three (the more the better). If you are just looking to work on your own and deliver final productions, then Vegas Pro is fine.
If you have to ask the question, then you do not need to worry about editing anything major. Major films and TV represent only about 1% of all the professional video editing done each year. There are so many uses for all the different NLE apps out there, that is the only reason there are so many NLE apps.
Vegas in a networked environment - What could be easier than moving and working with files in Windows across a 10Gb network. If your facility network is lacking, that might be a facility skill set issue. Windows has so many functions for scaling to the largest infrastructure known. I will agree that media management in Vegas is lacking when compared to AVID. AVID has worked a great system for the News cutting people. It all comes down to workflow, project management, scale of the project, and how you want to work. I find the way AVID stores the actual media rather convoluted when compared to simple file system storage of applications like Vegas. File system storage is the same on an external, network drive, or thumb drive. There are no project importing, and then importing media and whatnot. The project and media are either there or its not.
There is a myth out there at multiple people edit on one project at the same time. People do not edit on one timeline at the same time, they work on separate elements of the same master timeline, and then bring together the elements into a single time line. Your choice of NLE is based more on using a single app to alleviate issue of migration between apps. Since Vegas is not a majority market share, there is no way to sell working around the issues with cross application compatibility. Which means you base your facility on what the most editors are using and skilled at using, or you have a need for major media management like a CNN.
This has been a great discussion and has given me a lot to think about. There may be work out there for a full-time Vegas editor but I'm not going to count on it. Sony Vegas has taught me a lot about editing through dozens of projects and I'm confident I could cut a feature-length film with it (Here's one of my greatest learning experiences - 100% cut, vfx, sfx, and sound mixed with SVP - https://vimeo.com/93269411)
I'm currently working on 3 projects (One web-based series, one documentary series, and a sitcom) using SVP. But I've decided to move over to Premiere for any new projects. I suspect it will slow down my workflow for a while. It's pain well worth going through.
I started editing with Movie Maker way back when then switched over to Pinnacle to edit a 3 DVD video of a family cruise. When I bought an AVCHD camera I was forced to move out of my Pinnacle comfort zone and use SVP as my main editor.
The move to Premiere reminds me of my move from Pinnacle to SVP. Premiere seems to me to be a more advanced editor (especially when combined with After Effects). I've got thousands invested in SVP versions and plugins but most of what I use are available for Premiere and what I may lose will probably be made up for multiple times over by Adobe resources.
The biggest decision factor is that SVP 13 is probably the last major release of Vegas. Sony seems to be focused on Catalyst, which is great, but it will probably take years for it to catch up to the major NLEs.
The nail in the SVP coffin was hearing today that the Coen Brothers cut "Hail, Ceasar!" on Premiere.
I'll probably use SVP for quick hit and runs for a long while. It's a great tool. It just feels like it's time to broaden my skills.
[Rob Cioffi] "The move to Premiere reminds me of my move from Pinnacle to SVP."So you are OK with the subscription model and the fact that you pay annually for new releases whether you need the new features or not, and when you stop paying the software stops working and you can no longer open your projects? So if you were coming the other way from Premiere to Vegas you could not, for example, go back 6 months later and make adjustments to a Premiere project unless you paid Adobe more money for the privilege of doing so. And you have no problem with that? ('cuz I can agree to being held hostage like that regardless of how good the software is.)
[Rob Cioffi] "The biggest decision factor is that SVP 13 is probably the last major release of Vegas."So if Sony came out with Vegas Pro 14 this year you would stay? (just asking' 'cuz NAB is just around the corner and that's when new releases usually happen)
[Rob Cioffi] "The nail in the SVP coffin was hearing today that the Coen Brothers cut "Hail, Ceasar!" on Premiere."Well... the Hollywood feature film Focus was edited on Final Cut Pro X, and the A&E documentary O.J. Speaks: The Hidden tapes was cut on Final Cut Pro X, and the Emmy Award winning Harlem Globetrotters documentary was cut on Final Cut Pro X and according to this video (at 4:50), Final Cut Pro X is 5x Faster than Premiere Pro on the same hardware. So why not Final Cut Pro X? ...at least you "own" if forever! ;-)
Very good points. Allow me to address them.
[John Rofrano] "So you are OK with the subscription model and the fact that you pay annually for new releases whether you need the new features or not, and when you stop paying the software stops working and you can no longer open your projects? So if you were coming the other way from Premiere to Vegas you could not, for example, go back 6 months later and make adjustments to a Premiere project unless you paid Adobe more money for the privilege of doing so. And you have no problem with that? ('cuz I can agree to being held hostage like that regardless of how good the software is.)"
Yes, the subscription model is hard to swallow. I guess the upside is if I was in need of Premiere for a legacy project in the future I have the option of only having to pay a month at a time for the privilege. Right now I subscribe for to CC for my web business so Premiere and AE are just sitting there in my toolbox whether I use them or not.
[John Rofrano] "So if Sony came out with Vegas Pro 14 this year you would stay? (just asking' 'cuz NAB is just around the corner and that's when new releases usually happen)"
I suspect if anybody knows whether SVP 14 was going to drop this year (or even still in new feature development for a new version) it would be you, John ;). The answer is yes, I'd stay with Vegas as my primary tool if Sony Creative was actively developing it as a competitive NLE.
[John Rofrano] "Well... the Hollywood feature film Focus was edited on Final Cut Pro X, and the A&E documentary O.J. Speaks: The Hidden tapes was cut on Final Cut Pro X, and the Emmy Award winning Harlem Globetrotters documentary was cut on Final Cut Pro X and according to this video (at 4:50), Final Cut Pro X is 5x Faster than Premiere Pro on the same hardware. So why not Final Cut Pro X? ...at least you "own" if forever! ;-)
I'm an old IT guy with a Windows bias. I sold a top of the line iMac last year because the only thing I used it for was for playing around with FCPX and as a prop for clients. My guess is I could build a super-powered Wintel box that had Premiere matching FCPX performance for less than the cost of the Apple hardware. But that subscription model does suck.
I'm going to spend a few months working with Premiere - if only to broaden my skill set. I'd love to see SVP 14 announced at NAB. I'd have piece of mind back.
Thanks again John for taking the time out to respond.
"So you are OK with the subscription model "
I was going to leave that alone. If someone wishes to be taken hostage I wont stop them.
[Rob Cioffi] "whether SVP 14 was going to drop this year (or even still in new feature development for a new version)"
I don't get it VP 13 is capable of cutting most pro codecs and 3D stereo. How many more features are needed at this time. As to the Adobe System of interchanging projects, I have found it less than truthful about project handoffs between AE and Premier.
Myself I use Vegas to cut and Fusion as a compositor with a custom script to send the Vegas timeline to Fusion much the same as Avid and Lightworks can export the timeline to work on in Fusion.
Then there are the free NLE such as Lightworks and Resolve 12 is a serious contender as a powerful NLE. Both support ofx plugins and can be installed on Win, Mac or Linux.
Personally I refuse to use any ransomware company for I don't wish to encourage the business model.
That's my two cents worth.
[Russ Froze] "I don't wish to encourage the business model."That's the key issue here. The subscription model is a very bad precedent. Now plug-in vendors like GenArts are going subscription based as well. So now you have to pay Adobe and GenArts every month! Imagine if you had to pay for every plug-in every month!!! Pretty soon, you wouldn't be able to afford to run your own computer. It's not that far fetched. I have software that is 8 years old that I use only a few times a year. Imagine if I had to pay for it over, and over, and over, again for the past 8 years? That's not sustainable. I'm looking to reduce my monthly expenses not increase them.
I will not support the subscription model. It's a bad deal for customers, and I for one, am voting with my wallet!
[John Rofrano] "I will not support the subscription model. It's a bad deal for customers, and I for one, am voting with my wallet!"
You'd think the folks over at Sony might try to figure out a way to exploit the subscription model outrage by continuing to crank out new versions of Vegas. You'd think.
[John Rofrano] "I will not support the subscription model"
To wit, I'd like to thank you and Douglas Spotted Eagle for not continually billing me for Ultimat S.
You are absolutely correct Mr. Rofrano the subscription model is unsustainable. Sure it's 25 here 10 there 50 more over there and before you know it, the will be 5 or 6 hundred a month just to keep one edit bay running. Yes remember these licences are but for one installation so if there is a backup machine then double the cost.
Another thing that I don't agree with is the fact that these subscription licences need to be online. Certainly these Ransomware providers are serious about their online security system but are they concerned about your security? Now this is probably way out there, however not inconceivable. Let's hypothesise. As the master server does a handshake to check license, What is to impede some over achieving coder to send a little something extra to the licencing server. You can take it from there, just use your imagination. But mostly, I consider it an invasion of privacy.
[Russ Froze] "To wit, I'd like to thank you and Douglas Spotted Eagle for not continually billing me for Ultimat S. "Hey, if you guys want to send me a check every month wouldn't that be nice! lol
[Russ Froze] "Another thing that I don't agree with is the fact that these subscription licences need to be online."That is another thing that I (and we at VASST) never believed in and that's "Activation". What an insult to your customers to treat them like criminals while the criminals are using pirated copies that don't have activation! It stops no one but your honest customers from using the software they paid for. it's insane!!!
I have 4 Macs: A 2008 Mac Pro, a 2010 Mac Pro, and Mac Mini, and a MacBook Pro. All of the software that I purchase from Apple I buy once and have installed on all 4 of my Macs (FCP X, Motion, Compressor, Logic Pro X, etc). Not so with other greedy vendors. Adobe CS6 can only be on 2 of them at one time! Some plug-ins only allow me to put them on 1 of them!!! Needless to say they fooled me once, but I will never buy software a second time from a vendor who doesn't trust me to use it on the computers that I own. When configuring a new OS install, I dread having to relicense all of my 3rd party plug-ins and applications, but with Apple, I only have to put in my Apple ID and everything re-installs itself without any problems including 3rd party software that I purchased from the Apple Store (e.g., Pixelmator, Affinity Design, Affinity Photo, etc.). Every vendor should trust their customers because the people who steal their software, never were customers to begin with!
This is why VASST uses a simply license key that allows you to install our plug-ins on however many computers that you own. We don't lock a license to a particular computer, we don't "activate" back to a license server in the sky that requires you to be on-line. All of that is just a hassle for customers who purchased your software legally. Yea, I know there are pirated copies of our software out there but you know what... people who would use a pirated copy were never going to buy your software to begin with so it's really not a lost sale. Legitimate customers pay for their software and enjoy the support that it brings.
(hang on while I get down off of this soap box... i think I'm getting a nose bleed from the altitude... there... that's better) :-D
What Hollywood does is not representational of the 98% of the other video editing done every year. If you are worried about marketability of your skills, then there is this fact:
"Every 2015 Oscar nominee for Best Picture and Best Film Editing edited using Media Composer.
99% of all network broadcast prime time television* in North America is produced on Media Composer." http://apps.avid.com/mediacomposerfirst/