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HP Z800 best video card for Vegas 13 {Pro and Premiere Pro, After Efeects

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Brent Keller
HP Z800 best video card for Vegas 13 {Pro and Premiere Pro, After Efeects
on Dec 27, 2015 at 10:48:20 am

I have to HP Z800 for rendering CAD programs. I have used Vegas Pro for for years but want to expand to Premiere & After Effects. Both HP Z800 are running dual 6 core (2 x Xeon 5690) 48GB RAM and ( 2 X Xeon 5670) 24 GB Ram. Have a Quadro K2000 on z800 running the 5690s and a crappy FX1800 on the other.

Vegas seems to max at 16 cores... My system running 12 core, 24 thread. Can I get Vegas to run all 24?

I do have a GeForce GTX TITAN BLACK 6GB on the shelf but it did not seem to work as good as the k2000...?? I read somewhere the HP Z800 is optimized for the Quadro line of cards and cannot run GTX in SLI.

So, does the HP Z800 make a good editing machine with the proper video card? If so, what the heck card is that. Quadro 4000, 5000, 6000 or big bucks in the K series? Or will the HP do better with AMD?

FYI... I also have a custom build I did 3 years ago w/ Rampage Extreme III water cooled. Recently upgraded CPU to a 6 core Xeon (yes, it does run Xeons great) and OC to 4.5GHz with 12GB DDR3 RAM and an aging GTX 660. Maybe I should be using this with better video card(s)(board is made to run SLI) I just like the idea of two CPUs...'Hey Doc, figure how much medicine will kill me, the back it off a little'... If one is good, two must be better.... ya I'm smiling

Seems I have systems with muscle. I want to get into 4k and use my Canon RAW footage.

I know this video card issue is long and on going... but please throw in some ideas, suggestions, and best system setups. Feel free to let me know the z800 sucks at video task

Thank you,

Brent


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John Rofrano
Re: HP Z800 best video card for Vegas 13 {Pro and Premiere Pro, After Efeects
on Dec 27, 2015 at 2:19:43 pm

[Brent Keller] "Vegas seems to max at 16 cores... My system running 12 core, 24 thread. Can I get Vegas to run all 24?"
I have the same problem with my 12 Core. There is an internal preference that sets the max rendering threads to 16. I'm assuming the Vegas Pro developers picked 16 for a reason so I wouldn't advise making it higher but if you wanted to experiment, hold the Shift+Ctrl keys while simultaneously invoking the menu item Option | Preferences and a new tab will show up called Internal. if you search on "threads" you'll see the max render threads parameter is set to 16. Try changing it to 24 or 32 and see what happens. You'll need to restart Vegas Pro after changing it.
[Brent Keller] "So, does the HP Z800 make a good editing machine with the proper video card? If so, what the heck card is that. Quadro 4000, 5000, 6000 or big bucks in the K series? "
No offense but the Quadro 2000 is absolutely anemic. You need at least a Quadro 4000 which is what I use to use with my old 6 Core. The K series is just the latest generation of the older cards so a K4000 would be the minimal in that series.
[Brent Keller] "Or will the HP do better with AMD?"
I don't know about HP but Vegas Pro will certainly do better with an AMD card because it utilizes OpenCL which AMD supports better than NVIDIA does,
[Brent Keller] "Maybe I should be using this with better video card(s)(board is made to run SLI"
Vegas Pro doesn't support two GPU's or SLI so don't bother if you are doing it to improve Vegas Pro performance.
[Brent Keller] "I know this video card issue is long and on going... but please throw in some ideas, suggestions, and best system setups. Feel free to let me know the z800 sucks at video task"
On the contrary, the Z800 is purposefully built for media creation tasks like video. It's an excellent choice and if I were to buy another PC (which will probably never happen, lol), I'd definitely buy an Z800.

As far as video cards and Vegas Pro go, you want an AMD Radeon R9 295x or the equivalent R9 39x series card. That won't help you with your NVIDIA hungry Adobe apps but Vegas Pro works best with AMD cards.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Brent Keller
Re: HP Z800 best video card for Vegas 13 {Pro and Premiere Pro, After Efeects
on Dec 27, 2015 at 5:21:20 pm

Not sure why a Titan Black w/ approx 2800 cuda cores and 6gb RAM did not make the system fly.

Checking specs, the quadro k2000 has more cuda cores and a higher max resolution than the quadro 4000... the band width is about 15% less though. Both have 2GB RAM.The non Kepler 'K' Quadros use wattage like a crack attic.

I can pick up a Quadro 6000 6GB RAM 448 cuda cores, or Quadro k4000 3GB RAM 768 cuda cores and approx same band width.

It seems quadro 6000 will never do 4k out but the k5000 and k6000 will. Both the k2000 and k4000 is just shy at 3820.... You can still render 4k, just would be nice to have 4k preview screen in the work flow.

All this info... the Titan Black has more power than all above w/ 4k out and it iffy as best.

All that said, I think HP Z800 only considers Quadro cards qualified (so what?)... so will the
AMD cards work in the z800? I really would like to preview in 4k

Thank you,

Brent


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John Rofrano
Re: HP Z800 best video card for Vegas 13 {Pro and Premiere Pro, After Efeects
on Dec 27, 2015 at 7:11:09 pm

[Brent Keller] "Not sure why a Titan Black w/ approx 2800 cuda cores and 6gb RAM did not make the system fly."
Because Vegas Pro doesn't use CUDA! It doesn't care if you had a bazillion CUDA cores. Vegas Pro uses OpenCL and NVIDIA doesn't care about OpenCL. They are pushing their proprietary CUDA technology. If Vegas Pro used CUDA I'm sure it would fly with that card... but it doesn't use CUDA.
[Brent Keller] "Checking specs, the quadro k2000 has more cuda cores and a higher max resolution than the quadro 4000... the band width is about 15% less though. Both have 2GB RAM.The non Kepler 'K' Quadros use wattage like a crack attic."
No doubt the K2000's are better than the old 2000's and almost as good as the old 4000 so they are not as bad as they use to be. They still have about 30% lower bandwidth and only 1/2 the memory interface (128 bit vs 256 bit). Having lots of power but a limited pipe to send data through can slow things down quite a bit. It's not all about CUDA cores.
[Brent Keller] "All that said, I think HP Z800 only considers Quadro cards qualified (so what?)... so will the AMD cards work in the z800? I really would like to preview in 4k"
Yes, they will work. HP offers AMD Radeon's as a special order item on the Z840 so I don't see why you can't add one yourself.

I had a Quadro 4000 and I will never waste money on a Quadro series again. They may be great for 3D and CAD but for video edit they offer no advantage over a gaming card that costs 4x less. I now use an AMD Radeon series card and it works better than my Quadro 4000 did and costs a whole lot less.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Brent Keller
Re: HP Z800 best video card for Vegas 13 {Pro and Premiere Pro, After Efeects
on Dec 27, 2015 at 7:29:11 pm

Thx... I put the GTX Black in and it scores approx 68 fps on Cinebench 15 but does not run Vegas better. NVidia says in all their specs they support open CL... Maybe just moral support:)

Thank you,

Brent


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John Rofrano
Re: HP Z800 best video card for Vegas 13 {Pro and Premiere Pro, After Efeects
on Dec 27, 2015 at 7:38:30 pm

[Brent Keller] "NVidia says in all their specs they support open CL... Maybe just moral support:)"
Exactly! They support OpenCL but not very well. AMD beats them in every OpenCL benchmark by a wide margin. If you want to use OpenCL applications, you want an AMD GPU.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Aaron Star
Re: HP Z800 best video card for Vegas 13 {Pro and Premiere Pro, After Efeects
on Dec 27, 2015 at 7:48:09 pm
Last Edited By Aaron Star on Dec 27, 2015 at 7:53:37 pm

I know its hard to imagine after all the cash that has been poured into your xeon systems, but times have moved on. An x99 system with 32GB of ram and a Fury-X or 390x would massively outperform your xeons, more cores or not.

Look that placement of the X5690 vs the i7-5960 :

http://www.cpubenchmark.net/high_end_cpus.html

There is solid architecture improvement going on with the Gen 5 and 6 i7 systems that is vastly surpassing the older xeons like the Z800 has incorporated.

Another way to look at things is comparing the Mega-FLOP performance between processors, and then compare the GFLOP performance of the GPUs you are considering. Main system memory bandwidth would be the next thing to compare, as the Gen 5+ are all using DDR4.

There is a difference between Pro GPUs like Firepro or Quadro, but mainly the differences are in very pro specific features like deep color, more VRAM, and pro video interfaces. Compute wise, AMD "X" series desktop GPUs use the same core chips as the top of the line Firepro cards, so the GFLOP performance is the same at 4X less cash. So you really need specific reasons to go with the professional line of cards. Modern apps that use CUDA or OPENCL will take advantage of multiple GPUS, or the dual GPU cards like the 295X. Motherboard bandwidth is the issue when running dual cards, as you want the max 16x bandwidth between core RAM and GPU RAM. Vegas is not a modern implementation of OpenCL, and will only use the CPU compute units and the compute units from one GPU combined.

Optimizing CPU compute ability, then system RAM bandwidth with 16-32GB+, and then GPU GFLOP performance is the recommend way to build for Vegas. Core count is important as well just as long as you are not gimping your compute performance vs modern developments.

Get a copy of Luxmark v2 and compare GPU results, as this application uses system resources in the same way Vegas does.


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Michael Regan
Re: HP Z800 best video card for Vegas 13 {Pro and Premiere Pro, After Efeects
on Sep 14, 2017 at 8:12:55 am

Guys I have the same system as above. I am looking for something that I can view the preview window in real time without lag. Render time isnt an issue for me but to edit and cut clips at the precise time I want is important.

I preview in quarter quality but it seems to lag more than my older system.

Questions -
1/ what should I upgrade to kill this lag? I dont want to spend much.
2/ Is there anything else internally in Workstation or Vegas pro I can do to help reduce lag?

I started filming all in 4k but now reduced it to 1080 or 2k But would like to go back to 4k to have that standard of footage banked.


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Aaron Star
Re: HP Z800 best video card for Vegas 13 {Pro and Premiere Pro, After Efeects
on Sep 16, 2017 at 7:29:25 pm

The best way to get specific help with these types of issues, is to post more specific info on what you are trying to do.

Post details about your workflow from camera codec > timeline codec. List details about your effects or compositing you are trying to do in real-time. Show your project settings details.


List your system specs, or the way you have your system configured. Post a .speccy file, or post at least the summary section from SAVE AS TXT file. This helps understand overall how the system is assembled hardware wise.

Here are some things to consider:
CPU wise: The x5560 Xeon has less crunch power than a modern skylake CPU, so stop trying to push an old dog past its limits.

RAM: Dual CPU Xeons have 6 memory channels. There should be 64GB minimum of DDR3-1333 ECC memory of all the same JEDEC profile.

Board I/O: intel 5520 hub is only PCIe 2.0 capable and probably only on certain slots. Make sure your GPU/GPUs are actually running at 16x speeds. They may only be running at 8x in what appears to be a 16x slot. GPU-Z will show the Bus Interface speed, and can help with confirming your GPU interface operating at its max. Know your IO hub and where to optimally place boards.

While the dual CPU idea sounds like more power, I believe there are latency issues with the QPI connector that bridges the CPUs and IO HUB. The system is most likely designed to crunch CAD drawings frame by frame where frame rate is not so critical.

Vegas/NLEs require the lowest latency system possible to deliver frames on time. At 60 FPS, that is computing an entire video frame every 16 thousands of a sec. One frame that computes longer than .016 second and you start dropping frames. That means for stable playback you need a system that computes much faster than that. Add a dissolve between video clips or multi-cam, and that whole process needs to complete faster than .016 of a second for smooth playback. This is why system optimization of ram timings and bus slots versions is so critical.

According to Intel Ark:

Intel 5520 Expansion Options

PCI Express Revision: 1.1/2.0
PCI Express Configurations : 36 Lanes, 4x8, and 1x4
Max # of PCI Express Lanes : 36


My guess is that since your GPU is operating at pcie 2.0 speeds at 20% overhead, and you are sending 3x the video data over the bus, the connecting bus is not keeping up. 3X the video rate means you send video to the GPU for calculation, then send it back for more processing, then send the results back to the GPU again for display. Do the math on what RGB444 video data rate is at HD-4K, oversize your system bandwidths to allow for overheads. Even if you are working AVCHD at 8bit, all that video is converted to RGB444 for processing in memory.

The numbers are right there in front of you below the preview window. 3840x2160x128xFPS=???/sec

GPU: Vegas 11-14 works best with AMD cards 5770, 7970, R9-290x/390x, Fury-X, or newer XT class chips. GFLOP rating, highest compute core count, and the latest display port version is what you are looking for. Newer cards will step back down to the older PCIe2.0 standard, but clearly will be held back in terms of moving data from memory to memory on card.

Display make sure you are interfacing your display with display port or HDMI 1.4 or 2.0. Display port has the most bandwidth.

Storage goes without having to say that today you should be on SSD, old system or not.


Timeline codec can make a big difference in playback stability. If your system is spending to much time decompressing your codec, there will not be enough time left for the image processing. Always work in an intra-frame codec with a low overhead.


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Bruce Richard
Re: HP Z800 best video card for Vegas 13 {Pro and Premiere Pro, After Efeects
on Sep 20, 2017 at 6:33:18 am

I'm in sort of a similar place, though clearly not exactly, and thought I'd jump in here with a related question.

My current desktop is on its last legs, and I am out getting estimates on a new build. when I gave the guy my requirements, after reading so much here (mostly John Rofrano beating the drum, IIRC) over the years about how AMD cards with the openCL feature were so much better for SV, I mentioned to him make it an AMD video card.

He just sent me back an estimate, and he selected a RX580 for the GPU. Also, he specced a Core i7 7700k processor. Not sure what mobo he picked out. A 500Gb SSD, 32Gb of RAM, Windows 10. I have multiple external HDD's and another 750Gb internal HDD.

Did some quick googling, and saw some mentions here and there about how the recent offerings from AMD aren't as effective at exploiting the openCL feature as they used to be? Does that sound right? I wasn't sure how to interpret everything I was reading so I thought I'd comer over here to the experts to see what they thought.

I mainly use my machine for using Vegas 13 to edit, color and exposure correct old 8mm film scans (but some new HD stuff as well, ...... no 4K yet) and then frame-serve it out of Vegas into an Avisynth restoration script for further improvements.

By asking for the AMD/openCL GPU, am I asking for something that doesn't really fit my needs? (at least as much as it used to?) If so, which way should I look, if there are good suggestions.

Any knowledgeable guidance would be appreciated. And if more details are needed, let me know.

Thank you


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John Rofrano
Re: HP Z800 best video card for Vegas 13 {Pro and Premiere Pro, After Efeects
on Sep 20, 2017 at 12:09:14 pm

[Bruce Richard] "He just sent me back an estimate, and he selected a RX580 for the GPU. Also, he specced a Core i7 7700k processor. Not sure what mobo he picked out. A 500Gb SSD, 32Gb of RAM, Windows 10."
I don't follow PC hardware anymore since I moved to the Mac and Final Cut Pro X several years ago (and am I glad to not have to angst over what hardware to buy anymore) so I can't say if AMD is still the choice for Vegas Pro 13 (since I don't use it). I'm guessing that AMD would still be relevant since Vegas Pro 13 is still the same code base as when I used it.

My only comment would be: Why would you still be buying Core i7 CPU's when Intel has come out with the Core i9? Especially if you are someone who doesn't upgrade every 2 years and keeps their PC for a long time. You would think that you would buy the latests and greatest which will last the longest before becoming obsolete? If I still built PC's that's what I would do. My last PC 4 years ago was a 6-core, my current Mac Pro is a 12-core. I can't see buying a 4-core anything in 2017 unless video is just a hobby for you, then a 4-core is probably fine for occasional use but if you do upgrade to 4K in the future, Sony recommended an 8-core minimum and I assume MAGIX does too. Just something to think about.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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Bruce Richard
Re: HP Z800 best video card for Vegas 13 {Pro and Premiere Pro, After Efeects
on Sep 20, 2017 at 2:19:58 pm

Thanks for the reply John.

Yes, it is mostly a hobby with me. And I don't have plans to delve into 4K anytime soon, but of course it is a possibility for the future.

And yes, I do hold on to my computers for a long time, my present one, the one that's dying, I had built in April of 2012 and its an AMD A6-3650 APU with Radeon HD Graphics. 2.60GHz. So yeah, 5+ years.

There is some sticker shock when I look at the prices on the i9's, but maybe I just need to take the hit, and arealize that the extra will be spread out over many years, hopefully.

I did do some quick googling on looking for the "Sony recommended 8 core for 4k" aspect of this, and I found a thread from a couple years ago that you were in, and if I read it right, you said you played around at the apple store with a 4 core for 4k editing, and it worked well. That kind of confused me. There was mention in the same paragraph about a slower, but 8 core processor, maybe that was what you were referring to?

Here's the thread: https://forums.creativecow.net/docs/forums/post.php?forumid=24&postid=97805...

If anybody still in the PC game has thoughts on a choice for a GPU, i'm still trying to learn.


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John Rofrano
Re: HP Z800 best video card for Vegas 13 {Pro and Premiere Pro, After Efeects
on Sep 20, 2017 at 5:44:38 pm

[Bruce Richard] "There is some sticker shock when I look at the prices on the i9's, but maybe I just need to take the hit, and arealize that the extra will be spread out over many years, hopefully."
If you aren't betting you business on this then I wouldn't worry about the Core i9. Yes they are expensive but in business, time is money so time saved is money saved or earned.
[Bruce Richard] "...if I read it right, you said you played around at the apple store with a 4 core for 4k editing, and it worked well. That kind of confused me."
Yup, that's right and it confuses a lot of people. Final Cut Pro X on the Mac runs much better than anything on a PC and so you don't need as powerful a Mac. You can edit 4K smoothly on a Core i5 iMac with FCP X which you would never attempt to do on a PC or even with another NLE on the Mac. Apple has the hardware and software precisely tuned to take full advantage off each other. So you never have people complaining that FCP X doesn't take advantage of the GPU on their Mac like I hear all the time on a PC. It's a totally different world when one vendor owns the hardware and software.

Here is one comparison that proves my point:







~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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Bruce Richard
Re: HP Z800 best video card for Vegas 13 {Pro and Premiere Pro, After Efeects
on Sep 21, 2017 at 12:03:17 am

No, the confusion was even more easily explained in that.

I completely forgot that when referencing the Apple computer, you would've been using Final Cut Pro, not SV. In my head as I read it I was picturing them both using Vegas and I was wondering why ba 4 core would work on the Apple but that the PC, forgetting about the respective software.

Total brain fart on my part.


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John Rofrano
Re: HP Z800 best video card for Vegas 13 {Pro and Premiere Pro, After Efeects
on Sep 21, 2017 at 11:59:36 am

No worries. I use to run Vegas Pro on my Mac using Bootcamp with Windows 7 and it ran about the same as on a PC so no surprises there. What people don't realize about the Mac platform is that the developers are using the exact same Mac that you are which allows them to tune their software specifically for their hardware because they know in advance what your hardware will look like. This is a very powerful concept. Sort of like with "turn-key" systems which always performed better than generic systems.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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