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advice needed 60fps video

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Joe Tavola
advice needed 60fps video
on Dec 8, 2015 at 3:17:53 pm

I have shot a ton of video at 1080p 60fps (iPhone 6S) which after doing hours of it, and then reading that I should have just used 30fps because if I don't plan on slowing down the video it's just no point (and more space used). Anyways when I try to start editing the 60fps footage in Vegas 11 (q6600, 8GB) the preview and timeline lags big time. If I drop a 30fps shot on same 6S it runs smooth. So what is the best method to make this 60fps footage editable? I want the end process to be a 1080p MP4 file which will play through my Apple TV.


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John Rofrano
Re: advice needed 60fps video
on Dec 8, 2015 at 10:06:32 pm

You could render the 60p iPhone 6 video file to Sony MXF 30p. Make sure that you Disable Resample on all events before you do that. Vegas Pro will then simply drop every other frame and make it 30p. That will be very easy to edit.

The Intel Core 2 Quad Q6600 was launched in 2007. You might consider it time for a computer upgrade if you plan on editing new formats like iPhone 6 video. I'd say after 8 years that you got your money's worth out of it. ;-)

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Joe Tavola
Re: advice needed 60fps video
on Dec 8, 2015 at 11:01:45 pm
Last Edited By Joe Tavola on Dec 8, 2015 at 11:06:19 pm

For sure John, definitely time to upgrade! What can you recommend as far as cpu model?

Will the Sony format be MP4? Because it would have to play through Apple TV.

Anything I can do for editing these 60fps clips though smoother? Maybe convert them first to 30fps (batch convert)? I know it's time consuming but will that be better for my system and Vegas to handle these files for editing? Will I lose any quality in doing so?


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John Rofrano
Re: advice needed 60fps video
on Dec 8, 2015 at 11:43:27 pm

[Joe Tavola] "What can you recommend as far as cpu model?"
I've always had good luck with the VideoGuys DIY builds. Their DIY 11 build is using the Intel 4790k i7 Quad-Core. Personally, I would go for the Hex Core which is what I built 3 years ago but if you are on a budget, the new Haswell Quad Cores are really nice.
[Joe Tavola] "Will the Sony format be MP4? Because it would have to play through Apple TV. "
No, you missed my point. You were complain that you couldn't edit the footage smoothly so I recommended that you transcode it to Sony MXF and edit with that. This has nothing to do with rendering the final output to Apple TV which should be done using MainConcept AVC with either one of the Apple or Internet templates.
[Joe Tavola] "Anything I can do for editing these 60fps clips though smoother? Maybe convert them first to 30fps (batch convert)?"
I'm sorry I was clearer. That's exactly what I was suggesting. Convert them to Sony MXF for editing.
[Joe Tavola] "Will I lose any quality in doing so?"
Not that you will see. Sony HD422 MXF has a much higher bitrate than your source iPhone files. There won't be any noticeable quality loss.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Joe Tavola
Re: advice needed 60fps video
on Dec 9, 2015 at 3:15:42 am
Last Edited By Joe Tavola on Dec 9, 2015 at 3:17:04 am

Ah ok got it .. so i tried a small clip rendered to Sony mxf format using template HD422 1920x1080 60i 50Mbps (customize template 29.970 framerate) and i gotta tell you that file is now smoooooth as butter in Vegas editing. So do i need a new PC, hehehehe... i know i do, but what a difference it made, and you're right zero quality loss i see. THANKS!

It's just going to be very time consuming as i have close to 3hrs of 60 fps mov footage to convert. Took me 10 min for 30 sec clip. Is Sony Vegas the only way to do this? Will Adobe Media Encoder output to mxf? I can do a batch convert in that.

As for the CPU, will the integrated HD4600 (on i7 4970) graphics be sufficient or should i be getting a discrete video card for Vegas? AMD/Nvidia recommendation?


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John Rofrano
Re: advice needed 60fps video
on Dec 9, 2015 at 12:14:28 pm

[Joe Tavola] "so i tried a small clip rendered to Sony mxf format using template HD422 1920x1080 60i 50Mbps (customize template 29.970 framerate) and i gotta tell you that file is now smoooooth as butter in Vegas editing."
Yea, Vegas Pro loves Sony MXF format. Very smooth editing experience indeed.
[Joe Tavola] "It's just going to be very time consuming as i have close to 3hrs of 60 fps mov footage to convert. Took me 10 min for 30 sec clip. Is Sony Vegas the only way to do this? Will Adobe Media Encoder output to mxf? I can do a batch convert in that. "
I don't believe that Adobe Media Encoder can create a Sony MXF file. You could place all of the files on the timeline, place named regions around each of them, and use the Batch Render script with the Regions option to batch render them overnight to separate files.
[Joe Tavola] "As for the CPU, will the integrated HD4600 (on i7 4970) graphics be sufficient or should i be getting a discrete video card for Vegas? AMD/Nvidia recommendation?"
Vegas Pro will take advantage of the HD4xxx chips. I don't know if they perform as good as a discrete card because I've never owned a computer that used that chipset. For discrete cards get an AMD R9 29x series. Stay away from NVIDIA for Vegas Pro.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Joe Tavola
Re: advice needed 60fps video
on Dec 9, 2015 at 1:31:02 pm
Last Edited By Joe Tavola on Dec 9, 2015 at 1:31:37 pm

Thanks again John for the tip on the batch render feature.

Now I've dabbled with After Effects and that apparently loves Nvidia (with CUDA) so tough choice there on the discrete card knowing that Vegas doesn't like it. Guess I'll try just with the integrated graphics first before buying a discrete card.


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John Rofrano
Re: advice needed 60fps video
on Dec 9, 2015 at 4:54:34 pm

Yea, Adobe chose to use the proprietary CUDA and Sony decided to support the OpenCL standard. It's unfortunate but I think Adobe has been making changes to support OpenCL better which would favor AMD cards. Clearly Apple has chosen AMD for their new Mac Pro so if Adobe wants to run well on a Mac Pro they need to support OpenCL and not CUDA.

I believe that only ray-tracing in After Effects requires CUDA so unless you are doing ray-tracing, you might not have an issue with AE.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Joe Tavola
Re: advice needed 60fps video
on Dec 9, 2015 at 5:25:21 pm

Good to know. Most if not all my final renders will be Mainconcept MP4 (Apple TV) will using the integrated graphics have any ill effects with rendering?

I currently have an Ati Radeon 4870 1Gb would that be better then the HD 4600?


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John Rofrano
Re: advice needed 60fps video
on Dec 9, 2015 at 7:07:15 pm

[Joe Tavola] "will using the integrated graphics have any ill effects with rendering? "
No more than using a discrete card will. In general there have been times when rendering gets messed up and turning off the GPU fixes it so no one can say how GPU acceleration will affect a render, but from a quality standpoint there should be no difference.
[Joe Tavola] "I currently have an Ati Radeon 4870 1Gb would that be better then the HD 4600?"
The ATI Radeon 4870 will probably be faster.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Joe Tavola
Re: advice needed 60fps video
on Dec 9, 2015 at 7:54:54 pm

Thanks John you have been a great help to say the least!


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John Rofrano
Re: advice needed 60fps video
on Dec 10, 2015 at 3:59:24 pm

You're welcome Joe. I'm glad I can put all this stuff crowding my head to good use. lol :-D

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Joe Tavola
Re: advice needed 60fps video
on Dec 25, 2015 at 6:10:10 pm

Hey John sorry to rehash this topic... But now that it's Boxing Day and sales are out thought I'd get some more clarification on video cards. What exactly or where would I notice adifference in editing with using a discrete video card vs the integrated one? Is it previews? Timeline editing? Adding effects?


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John Rofrano
Re: advice needed 60fps video
on Dec 26, 2015 at 2:39:30 am

[Joe Tavola] "I'd get some more clarification on video cards. What exactly or where would I notice adifference in editing with using a discrete video card vs the integrated one? Is it previews? Timeline editing? Adding effects?"
All of the above. GPU acceleration is used to decode the source video for timeline playback, for processing plug-ins that support GPU and for rendering. All of this improves preview speed and rendering speed.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Joe Tavola
Re: advice needed 60fps video
on Dec 26, 2015 at 4:49:47 am

And the difference is very noticeable from a Radeon R9 card vs 4600HD right?


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John Rofrano
Re: advice needed 60fps video
on Dec 26, 2015 at 12:44:39 pm

[Joe Tavola] "And the difference is very noticeable from a Radeon R9 card vs 4600HD right?"
I've never used a PC that had an Intel HD 4600 GPU so it's hard for me to say personally. I can say that GPU acceleration is very noticeable with and without the GPU turned on. I don't know how well an Intel HD 4600 performs with Vegas Pro. I did a little searching for comparisons and benchmarks and it looks like the Radeon R9 280x is 600% faster and the Radeon R9 270x is 430% faster than the Intel HD 4600. I'm guessing that's going to make a very noticeable difference in Vegas Pro. ;-)

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Joe Tavola
Re: advice needed 60fps video
on Dec 26, 2015 at 2:05:20 pm

Do those cards still exists? Seems like my choices are R9 380 or 370 OR R7 370.

Those are in the 200-300 budget I wanna spend on the video card. Anyone one of those models standout for Vegas in particular? 2Gb vs 4Gb matter much?


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John Rofrano
Re: advice needed 60fps video
on Dec 26, 2015 at 2:26:50 pm

[Joe Tavola] "Do those cards still exists? Seems like my choices are R9 380 or 370 OR R7 370. "
Yea, where are you looking? There are plenty of Radeon R9 2xx Series cards available (newegg.com, amazon.com, etc.).
[Joe Tavola] "Anyone one of those models standout for Vegas in particular?"
I haven't heard much feedback on the 300 series yet. The Radeon R9 290x and 295x are the cards everyone seems to like with Vegas Pro. The 280x series are cheaper and closer to my Radeon HD 7950 which is an older card that supports my Mac Pro tower.
[Joe Tavola] "2Gb vs 4Gb matter much?"
If you are working with 4K I would get the 4GB. Otherwise is doesn't matter. 2GB is fine.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Joe Tavola
Re: advice needed 60fps video
on Dec 26, 2015 at 4:12:54 pm

My local shop site is where I usually stick to. Might have to try newegg or do a little more research on these 300 series cards. Price wise they seem to be same, just don't know how the performance will be. Thanks again I'll definitely go with a discrete card just don't know which.


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John Rofrano
Re: advice needed 60fps video
on Dec 26, 2015 at 4:44:26 pm

Just ask your local shop which 300 series card matches the 200 series card that you want. I agree it makes better sense to buy the 300 series cards because they are newer. I just don't know which one maps to what 200 series card. It shouldn't be too difficult to figure this out.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Aaron Star
Re: advice needed 60fps video
on Dec 26, 2015 at 8:20:55 pm

EBay a HD7970-ghz would be a better buy than a 270x,280x, probably most non 390x cards. This based mainly on specs and how they appear to OpenCL, which is how vegas uses the GPU for assistance.

I recommend Sony AVC over Main Concept. Main Concept offers very little over Sony's AVC encoder. Sony's encoder will use the GPU as needed for calculations that can use the GPU. MC encoder does things different with the GPU, and there are other posts that talk about the artifacts that GPU encoding can be added to your image. A GPU that supports MC encoder is a very dated mind set. Improving your systems overall compute ability via CPU and in kind with a high GFLOP GPU.

In a very technical way, the XT or "X" series AMD GPUs have an edge over non X GPUs. The X series GPUs have max compute units for the design in the way they appear to OpenCL. More compute units on the GPU generally means greater OpenCL performance.

Converting the IPhone footage to HDCAM-SR-Lite, Cineform-LOW, or even AVC-I(HD 60P profile) would be the way to edit that material in Vegas.


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Joe Tavola
Re: advice needed 60fps video
on Dec 27, 2015 at 1:58:20 am
Last Edited By Joe Tavola on Dec 27, 2015 at 1:59:29 am

Converting the IPhone footage to HDCAM-SR-Lite, Cineform-LOW, or even AVC-I(HD 60P profile) would be the way to edit that material in Vegas.

With my new rig (i7 4970K, Asus z97-A, 16GB Gskill Ripjaws, R9 380 4Gb) I'll still have to convert my iPhone 6S footage to edit in Vegas? Or do you mean with my current setup? I hope it's the latter that you're referring to!?


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Aaron Star
Re: advice needed 60fps video
on Dec 27, 2015 at 3:07:51 am

If you are not having problems editing your footage from the phone, then there is nothing to do to work with it. Most of the issues I have seen people having with that footage has to do more with QuickTime issues. Converting to an .mxf container/codec can help with playback smoothness and clip quantity.

Running tests on your own system is the only way to see any benefits. Create a test project convert some clips, do some cross fades, add some plugins you use typically and look for the difference in frame rate drops or lack there of. Enable 32-bit video levels mode and check the difference between the converted clips and the camera format. Keep in mind that only the 1st instance of Vegas will use the GPU.


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John Rofrano
Re: advice needed 60fps video
on Dec 27, 2015 at 3:57:56 pm

[Aaron Star] "Most of the issues I have seen people having with that footage has to do more with QuickTime issues. Converting to an .mxf container/codec can help with playback smoothness and clip quantity."
+1

Here's the bottom line:

Vegas Pro doesn't work well with QuickTime footage. If you want to shoot with a camera that creates QuickTimes files whether it be an iPhone or Ninja or whatever... do yourself a favor and buy a Mac and edit with Final Cut Pro X. I'm very serious about this! My iPhone 6 QuickTime files at 240fps edit like butter on my MacBook Pro laptop with FCP X. No issues at all. If you want to use a Vegas Pro on a PC, then be prepared to convert your QuickTime files to something that a Vegas Pro can handle. It's as simple as that.

iPhone + Mac = happy editing

iPhone + PC = wasted days on forums being non-productive wondering why nothing works

It's your choice how you want to spend you time. Seriously... look back at this thread... you've asked about formats because Vegas can't handle 60p QuickTime files... then we had a lengthy discussion about what video cards to buy... NONE of this would have been needed if you bought a Mac! The video card that comes with a Mac is the same video card the Final Cut Pro X developers use. There is never any issues with what parts to buy like PC users have to deal with. This thread started 19 days ago. if you had a Mac with FCP X you'd be editing your iPhone footage happily for 19 days instead of anguishing over what to do. Think about it! ;-)

Note: I don't make it a habit of telling people what platform to use. if you want to use a PC or Mac that's your personal choice... but if you want to shoot Apple Quicktime formats and then complain that you have to transcode the files to use them on a PC... you should seriously reconsider your platform choice. Sony Vegas Pro works great with Sony cameras that shoot Sony formats. QuickTime is NOT one of them!

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Aaron Star
Re: advice needed 60fps video
on Dec 27, 2015 at 8:33:00 pm

I agree with John on the Apple hardware choice. The PC supports way more hardware than MAC, and PC manufactures sell good deals for them and not the end user. If people bought the best PC hardware, they would have a lot less problems. People unfortunately by hardware based on cost and not the best tool for the job. Once a PC system is built DIY all the individual profit margins add up and exceed the volume discount apple offers on their hardware. A top of the line PC/PC workstation will computationally outperform a MAC Pro, this largely due to how infrequently Apple releases new hardware configuration. For example the as of this writing Apple does not support the AMD Fury-x, nor have any DDR4 or skylake offerings. The "Trash Can" is looking pretty weak right now, since it has not been keeping up with the times.


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Joe Tavola
Re: advice needed 60fps video
on Dec 27, 2015 at 11:46:31 pm
Last Edited By Joe Tavola on Dec 27, 2015 at 11:59:22 pm

Thanks for the advice but I'll stick to PC and my new build. Whether it's converting files or trying out Premiere for editing QuickTime it's still less $$$ and easier learning curve then going Mac (Final Cut) just because I have an iPhone. When I started this thread I didn't know if it was Vegas or my PC that couldn't handle the iPhone mov files. Now we are saying regardless if you have super PC if you use iPhone Vegas won't cut it. I'll make it work but I get what you're saying don't get me wrong. I don't do this professionally and I love what PC offers (software wise, gaming, etc..) as opposed to Mac.


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John Rofrano
Re: advice needed 60fps video
on Dec 28, 2015 at 5:17:22 am

I can't argue with you about the PC being the best platform for gaming. It certainly is. Premiere is another option but you have to be willing to pay monthly subscription fee whether you use it or not that month so it has it's own problems with cost. Good luck in whatever method you choose.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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