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VHS Footage Rendered Out As Progressive Does Not Look Good

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Jackie Luffy
VHS Footage Rendered Out As Progressive Does Not Look Good
on Nov 23, 2015 at 11:12:56 pm

Hey again, If you guys remember from last time I was able to capture my VHS tapes using my Sony DV camera as a passthrough, they footage looks great, I have been seeing online that when you capture this way it is "interlaced"

I have a problem after it gets rendered out though, I am making it MP4 and chose to make it progressive but it seems to me when comparing the MP4 file to the source footage that there is a noticable quality loss in the sense that it looks not as sharp, it is more blurry.

I tried to render it out as "Lower field first" and "Upper field first" but the horizontal lines are WAY to bad, I also tried viewing it on my TV through my PS4 and they PS4 would play them but it just glitched, it will only play the progressive version.

I am wondering if there is any possible way to render this out through Vegas with the same quality as the raw captured files

The thing is when I play it through VLC player I noticed that in the settings in de-interlace method it says "Blend" and the strange thing is it looks great playing the raw file in VLC with that setting, but as soon as it's put through Vegas it seems like there is a definite softness to it, I don't see what else I can do, out of the 3 settings "Progressive, Lower, and Upper" Progressive is the only option I have that is looking good, perhaps this slight quality loss is inevitable?


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John Rofrano
Re: VHS Footage Rendered Out As Progressive Does Not Look Good
on Nov 23, 2015 at 11:33:55 pm

[Jackie Luffy] "The thing is when I play it through VLC player I noticed that in the settings in de-interlace method it says "Blend" and the strange thing is it looks great playing the raw file in VLC with that setting, but as soon as it's put through Vegas it seems like there is a definite softness to it, I don't see what else I can do"
What do you have your Deinterlace Method set to in your Project Properties? This determines how the video is deinterlaced when you select Progressive render.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Jackie Luffy
Re: VHS Footage Rendered Out As Progressive Does Not Look Good
on Nov 23, 2015 at 11:43:34 pm

It is set to "Blend Fields"


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John Rofrano
Re: VHS Footage Rendered Out As Progressive Does Not Look Good
on Nov 24, 2015 at 12:44:58 am

[Jackie Luffy] "It is set to "Blend Fields""
As the fields get blended they also get a bit soft. If it bothers you, you can use a 3rd party deinterlacer like the one that comes in Boris Continuum Complete.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Jackie Luffy
Re: VHS Footage Rendered Out As Progressive Does Not Look Good
on Nov 23, 2015 at 11:46:32 pm

The only way I can get rid of the horizontal lines is if the project properties are set to "Progressive" in the field order and if the deinterlace mode is set to "blend", in the render settings I make it progressive as well


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John Rofrano
Re: VHS Footage Rendered Out As Progressive Does Not Look Good
on Nov 24, 2015 at 12:43:47 am

[Jackie Luffy] "The only way I can get rid of the horizontal lines is if the project properties are set to "Progressive" in the field order and if the deinterlace mode is set to "blend", in the render settings I make it progressive as well"
If your source is interlaced your project properties should be interlaced as well. Only the render needs to be progressive,

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Jackie Luffy
Re: VHS Footage Rendered Out As Progressive Does Not Look Good
on Nov 24, 2015 at 12:50:53 am

Hmmm, I make the project settings "De-interlaced method" to none, and the field order to "Lower field first"

The rendering settings are progressive but I still end up with horizontal lines in the picture

Footage captured from a Sony DV camera is Interlaced correct? So if that is the case I don't know why i'm getting lines in the finished video if the project settings are set to none and "lower field first"


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John Rofrano
Re: VHS Footage Rendered Out As Progressive Does Not Look Good
on Nov 24, 2015 at 4:53:37 am

[Jackie Luffy] "Hmmm, I make the project settings "De-interlaced method" to none, and the field order to "Lower field first""
If your source is interlaced you never want to set the deinterlace method to none. That will only cause lines in the output.
[Jackie Luffy] "Footage captured from a Sony DV camera is Interlaced correct? So if that is the case I don't know why i'm getting lines in the finished video if the project settings are set to none and "lower field first""
You are getting the lines because your source is interlaced and it needs to be deinterlaced if you want to render progressive but you told Vegas not to deinterace it by setting the deinterlace method to none. You should be using Blend Fields instead.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Jackie Luffy
Re: VHS Footage Rendered Out As Progressive Does Not Look Good
on Nov 24, 2015 at 12:02:23 am

Here is a screen shot of both (The one of the left is the raw which has less noticeable pixels, the one on the right you can notice way more pixels and I guess that's why it looks more fuzzy)

9498_compare.jpg.zip


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John Rofrano
Re: VHS Footage Rendered Out As Progressive Does Not Look Good
on Nov 24, 2015 at 12:46:39 am

I don't click on ZIP files. (sorry)

If you ant to display an image please upload it as an image so that you can imbed it into your post like this:



~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Jackie Luffy
Re: VHS Footage Rendered Out As Progressive Does Not Look Good
on Nov 24, 2015 at 12:53:45 am

compare.jpg


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Jackie Luffy
Re: VHS Footage Rendered Out As Progressive Does Not Look Good
on Nov 24, 2015 at 3:29:11 am





Take a look at both of these images, there is a clear quality loss in the screenshot that has a tint more of contrast (which I added in Vegas) You can clearly see more blocky artifacts in the rendered more contrasted screen capture, I have the bit rate set extremely high as well variable bit rate of 5,000,000 max with minumum of 3,000,000 So there shouldn't be any reason why it loses this much quality, I even tried making the bit rate to 10,000,000 which is HD quality settings and it seemed to have make no difference, I thought it may have been worse because of the contrast I added but that seemed to prove wrong when I compared them together without the added contrast, there is definitely more blocky pixels in the rendered out file


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Jackie Luffy
Re: VHS Footage Rendered Out As Progressive Does Not Look Good
on Nov 24, 2015 at 3:32:00 am

Sorry I would like to add that the rendered out file is cropped on the left for some reason, it is not like that in Vegas, wow SD footage is so much more complicated to work with than HD :O


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John Rofrano
Re: VHS Footage Rendered Out As Progressive Does Not Look Good
on Nov 24, 2015 at 4:57:22 am

I agree that's pretty blocky. How are you rendering? What type and what template are you using?

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Jackie Luffy
Re: VHS Footage Rendered Out As Progressive Does Not Look Good
on Nov 24, 2015 at 5:00:23 am

Here are my settings, making them into MP4's



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John Rofrano
Re: VHS Footage Rendered Out As Progressive Does Not Look Good
on Nov 24, 2015 at 5:49:15 am

OK. DV video is not 720x480 in square pixels. It uses a pixel aspect ratio of 0.9091 which when translated to square pills or MP4 is 655x480. So your picture is being stretched at 720 which adds to the softness. Try using the Internet 480p 4:3 template from Sony and see how it looks. Increase the bit rate if you'd like or change the resolution to 655 x 480 and see if that helps.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Jackie Luffy
Re: VHS Footage Rendered Out As Progressive Does Not Look Good
on Nov 25, 2015 at 10:53:50 pm

Hey again, I have tried to change the pixel ratio to 0.9091 but I cannot find a setting to change this? When I select "Internet 480p 4:3" setting and go to customize it says that its 1.000 for pixel aspect ratio!

But your right in the properties I can select it to be 0.9091 and even when I right click on each clip on the timeline and go to media it says that these files are indeed 0.9091, I just can't render them out that way for some reason


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Jackie Luffy
Re: VHS Footage Rendered Out As Progressive Does Not Look Good
on Nov 26, 2015 at 10:03:40 am

I have been messing around to try to figure this out and found that the only way I can get into the "Pixel Aspect" in the render settings is if I decide to make my own custom aspect ratio, this gives access to the "Pixel Aspect" menu but 0.9091 is not an option, its only 1.000 and 1.333


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John Rofrano
Re: VHS Footage Rendered Out As Progressive Does Not Look Good
on Nov 26, 2015 at 12:05:29 pm

[Jackie Luffy] "0.9091 is not an option, its only 1.000 and 1.333"
That's correct. There is no other aspect ratio but 1.0 for the Internet and computer playback. You have to adjust the resolution instead.

720 x 0.9091 = 654.552

Since there are no fractional pixels we round up to 655 and get 655 x 480 PAR 1.0. So if you are trying to render NTSC DV video for the internet, the correct settings are 655 x 480 with a Pixel Aspect Ratio of 1.0.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Jackie Luffy
Re: VHS Footage Rendered Out As Progressive Does Not Look Good
on Nov 27, 2015 at 4:50:35 am

This is very strange, a few more problems have come up, Everytime I do "custom frame size" in the render settings and make it 655 by 480 it changes to 656 for some reason, each time I click save and click on something else its back to 656 by 480!

My project properties are set to 720 By 480 so I changed that to 655 By 480 to see what happens and in the video preview it shows black bars on the top and bottom of the screen now, I ignored it and went to the render settings and this time it was set to 655 by 480, but now when I click render I get an error message "An error occured while creating the media file, an invalid argument was specified?

I'm not sure I understand why it has to be 655 instead of 720, how is it that in Vegas 720 by 480 shows that it fits the preview box perfectly but when I set it to 655 by 480 it looks wrong because there are black bars on the top and bottom?

I am also not putting these files for internet use, I just want them to be in the best quality so I can store them on my harddrive

Thanks in advance John, this is a tough problem I'm facing I really appreciate the help


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John Rofrano
Re: VHS Footage Rendered Out As Progressive Does Not Look Good
on Nov 27, 2015 at 10:20:56 pm

[Jackie Luffy] "Everytime I do "custom frame size" in the render settings and make it 655 by 480 it changes to 656 for some reason, each time I click save and click on something else its back to 656 by 480!"
That's OK. You must have selected format that requires resolution to be in multiples of 8 pixels. 656 is evenly divisible by while 655 isn't so don't worry about it. Use 656.
[Jackie Luffy] "My project properties are set to 720 By 480 so I changed that to 655 By 480 to see what happens and in the video preview it shows black bars on the top and bottom of the screen now, I ignored it and went to the render settings and this time it was set to 655 by 480, but now when I click render I get an error message "An error occured while creating the media file, an invalid argument was specified?"
You don't want to change your project. Your project is already correct. NTSC DV video is 720x480 with a Pixel Aspect Ratio of 0.0901. The black bars were probably because you forgot to change the pixel aspect ratio but as I said... you don't want to do this Keep your project set to make your DV source video.
[Jackie Luffy] "I'm not sure I understand why it has to be 655 instead of 720, how is it that in Vegas 720 by 480 shows that it fits the preview box perfectly but when I set it to 655 by 480 it looks wrong because there are black bars on the top and bottom?"
Because back in the days of DV, Televisions were Analog and not Digital and they dod not use square pixels. Their pills were slightly thinner so you could fit 720 in the same space as 655 square ones. Computers are digital and only use square pixels. Your problem is caused by the different between square pixels and non-square pixels.
[Jackie Luffy] "I am also not putting these files for internet use, I just want them to be in the best quality so I can store them on my harddrive"
Then I would keep them in their original format and render to Video For Windows (*.avI) with the NTSC DV template.

Why are you trying to render them as progressive video? I thought you had a reason for doing this and I didn't question you but if you are trying to store these in the best possible format, then the ORIGINAL format is the best! Store them as DV AVI files.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Jackie Luffy
Re: VHS Footage Rendered Out As Progressive Does Not Look Good
on Nov 27, 2015 at 10:36:59 pm

Thank you! Okay sorry I forgot to mention, I am going through these VHS tapes and just keeping the good moments and I want to be able to render them out in the best quality so people can watch them off there computers or off DVD

I will try to render them out as 656 X 480 and see how it turns out, there is nothing wrong with saving them as MP4 files correct?

From what you just explained to me I am assuming that by taking these DV files and rendering them as MP4 I am going to lose a bit of quality no matter what I do because like you said i'm converting them to pixels now, if that is the case I am okay with that! I just wanted to make sure if there was a way to get them rendered out the exact same quality as after these are saved and I view them all with my family I was going to just delete the raw DV files as there are way to many of them and they take up way to much space.

Thank you!


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John Rofrano
Re: VHS Footage Rendered Out As Progressive Does Not Look Good
on Nov 28, 2015 at 1:15:36 am

[Jackie Luffy] "I want to be able to render them out in the best quality so people can watch them off there computers or off DVD"
That's the problem. The best quality for watching on a computer is not the same as the best quality for watching on a DVD. You really should be saving the original video in the original DV format and then repurposing for the delivery medium (either computer or DVD or whatever comes next).
[Jackie Luffy] "there is nothing wrong with saving them as MP4 files correct?"
No, unless you want to put them on DVD afterward. Then it's the wrong format.
[Jackie Luffy] "I just wanted to make sure if there was a way to get them rendered out the exact same quality as after these are saved and I view them all with my family"
Well... the "exact same quality" world be the original format.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Jackie Luffy
Re: VHS Footage Rendered Out As Progressive Does Not Look Good
on Nov 28, 2015 at 3:32:52 am

Sorry I should have explained more, I am aiming to save these on DVD's as a data disk, not as an actual dvd video.

But there must be a way to render it so the quality looks to the eye just as good as the original no? I always take MP4 files and will re-render them again with a high bitrate and there is no noticeable difference in the quality to the eye


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Jackie Luffy
Re: VHS Footage Rendered Out As Progressive Does Not Look Good
on Nov 28, 2015 at 4:56:49 am

John I noticed that when I use "Interpolate Fileds" for the De-interlace method my footage looks the best when viewed, what is your opinion on using that method?

Thanks again


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John Rofrano
Re: VHS Footage Rendered Out As Progressive Does Not Look Good
on Nov 28, 2015 at 12:45:20 pm

[Jackie Luffy] "I use "Interpolate Fileds" for the De-interlace method my footage looks the best when viewed, what is your opinion on using that method?"
Interpolate Fields throws away half of your vertical resolution by discarding one field. This eliminates temporal problems caused by the fields being 1/60th of a second apart in time. If that looks better on your footage then by all means use it. It is usually used for footage with a lot of motion where blending the fields leads to too much blurring.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Jackie Luffy
Re: VHS Footage Rendered Out As Progressive Does Not Look Good
on Nov 28, 2015 at 6:04:45 pm

Which de-interlace method would you be using for the project settings John? Blend fields or interpolate, I just want to be safe and make sure I'm doing it right


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John Rofrano
Re: VHS Footage Rendered Out As Progressive Does Not Look Good
on Nov 28, 2015 at 7:02:10 pm

I would use the one that looks best for your particular video content. Blend Fields is for low motion video and Interpolate Fields is for high motion video. Depending on the content of the video, use the one that looks the best.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Jackie Luffy
Re: VHS Footage Rendered Out As Progressive Does Not Look Good
on Nov 28, 2015 at 7:06:19 pm

Okay thank you so much for all your help! :) Have a great day


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Jackie Luffy
Re: VHS Footage Rendered Out As Progressive Does Not Look Good
on Nov 29, 2015 at 1:05:50 am

I have one final question! If I zoom in on the VHS footage in Vegas to avoid the small black bars on the sides of the screen and to avoid the noise at the bottom of the screen (I guess from the capture) would that be a bad idea to do that?

Also would it be safe to save my footage as something other than 656 BY 480 so I can crop off the bottom and sides? Or would that just make a noticeable loss in quality?


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John Rofrano
Re: VHS Footage Rendered Out As Progressive Does Not Look Good
on Nov 29, 2015 at 5:26:39 pm

[Jackie Luffy] "If I zoom in on the VHS footage in Vegas to avoid the small black bars on the sides of the screen and to avoid the noise at the bottom of the screen (I guess from the capture) would that be a bad idea to do that? "
Since ou are not keeping the video it it's native DV format, do whatever you have to, to make it look better. Normally you wouldn't see those black bars on an SD TV but since you are rendering for computer viewing you might want to crop them off. Yes, it will make the image softer because you are stretching it. Only you can decide if the loss in quality is acceptable.
[Jackie Luffy] "Also would it be safe to save my footage as something other than 656 BY 480 so I can crop off the bottom and sides? Or would that just make a noticeable loss in quality?"
You want to stay away from odd sizes and some codes won't let you select odd sizes. You might want to render as 640x480 cropping off the black on the sides but I would not change the 480 height as that is a standard height.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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