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Down-sampling in SV

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Steve Mason
Down-sampling in SV
on Sep 1, 2015 at 4:27:59 pm

Hello,

I have two timelines in SV 11:

the first contains both SD and HD (interlaced 1920x1080 / .mts format)

the second contains the above specified HD exclusively.

Both of these timeline clips are destined for DVD - meaning they will be rendered to 720x480 1.2121 (NTSC DV Widescreen) lower field first.

I've come across quite a bit of conflicting information as to the optimal methods to down-sample. I am of course seeking the best quality possible and I ask if anyone would be so kind as to offer me some suggestions.

PS - The aforementioned timelines contain a wealth of various media, FX, etc, in addition to the .mts clips; am I best off down-sampling each HD clip individually (outside of the timelines) or should I render each timeline, then downsample?

Thanks in advance!!


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John Rofrano
Re: Down-sampling in SV
on Sep 1, 2015 at 5:40:18 pm

Just render to MainConcept MPEG-2 using the appropriate DVD Architect NTSC | PAL Widescreen video stream... template and then render your audio as Dolby Digital AC3 and you should be fine. Vegas Pro does an awesome job of figuring all of this downsampling stuff for you.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Steve Mason
Re: Down-sampling in SV
on Sep 1, 2015 at 6:11:51 pm

John,

Thanks for the suggestion. I've already tried rendering directly from the SV timeline and I wasn't happy with how the down-sampled footage appeared. For whatever reason(s) the interlacing is far more pronounced in the down-sampled footage than in the native SD footage - it is pretty noticeable.

I've read suggestions about using AV Synth and other 3rd party programs to improve the appearance of the down-sampling, but I'm unclear as to the best solution. I'd really like to try and get the best looking down-sampled possible.

Thanks again!


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John Rofrano
Re: Down-sampling in SV
on Sep 1, 2015 at 7:10:44 pm

[Steve Mason] "For whatever reason(s) the interlacing is far more pronounced in the down-sampled footage than in the native SD footage - it is pretty noticeable."
What did you use to determine this? Did you watch the DVD on a TV and you saw interlacing?

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Steve Mason
Re: Down-sampling in SV
on Sep 1, 2015 at 7:16:03 pm
Last Edited By Steve Mason on Sep 1, 2015 at 7:19:05 pm

I made a test DVD with the down-sampled clips on it and played-back on a DVD player to a television (the intended destination for these clips).

As I've mentioned, the SD segments in the same clips looked fine, but the down-sampled segments appeared discernibly more "interlaced" (the separation of the fields appeared more prominent).


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Mike Kujbida
Re: Down-sampling in SV
on Sep 1, 2015 at 9:16:22 pm

Make sure you render using "Best" mode.


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Steve Mason
Re: Down-sampling in SV
on Sep 1, 2015 at 9:20:36 pm

It's all I ever use.


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John Rofrano
Re: Down-sampling in SV
on Sep 2, 2015 at 12:18:48 am

[Steve Mason] "I made a test DVD with the down-sampled clips on it and played-back on a DVD player to a television (the intended destination for these clips). "
I've never seen any interlacing on any down samples clips from Vegas Pro so something must not be set correctly.

Can you post a screen shot of your Project Properties?

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Steve Mason
Re: Down-sampling in SV
on Sep 2, 2015 at 12:53:48 am

John,

As per your request:



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John Rofrano
Re: Down-sampling in SV
on Sep 2, 2015 at 10:29:57 am

OK, so you are working on an SD project. Your project properties look fine. I usually work in an HD project and render to SD but if you have mixed formats it should be fine to work in an SD project as well. If you right-click on an event that contains HD media, then select properties... what does the Media Tab show? Does Vegas Pro correctly identify the HD media as interlaced?

At this point I would do a simple test of starting a new DV Widescreen project, drop an HD clip on the timeline and render to DVD. Just to see if it's something about Vegas Pro or something that you are doing later in the editing process like cropping that's causing the problem.

I'm also wondering if the project option to "Adjust source media to better match project or render setting" is causing a problem. Try unchecking this option after you create your project but before you drop any clips into the timeline. Then drop an HD clip, render again and see if it makes a difference. I beleive I usually keep this unchecked and I see that you have it checked.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Bob Peterson
Re: Down-sampling in SV
on Sep 1, 2015 at 10:19:26 pm
Last Edited By Bob Peterson on Sep 1, 2015 at 11:41:46 pm

Oops! Sorry. Wrong thread. This is my confusion night!


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Bob Peterson
Re: Down-sampling in SV
on Sep 1, 2015 at 11:41:02 pm

I used to do this on a regular basis. For your HD source video, did you set pan/crop to use the match output aspect so that the HD image is cropped to an SD size? If you have already done this, then my comment won't help. If you have not done this, then you should. When you do, you can select the portion of the SD screen that you want to include so that you get the best possible image. In my experience, the quality of the HD video used in this way will exceed the quality of the SD video. That assumes, of course, that both the HD and SD are at comparable quality levels to begin with.

When you render, as others have said, Vegas will take care of the details. That should not be too hard since it is seeing, essentially, two SD images.


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Steve Mason
Re: Down-sampling in SV
on Sep 2, 2015 at 12:50:55 am
Last Edited By Steve Mason on Sep 2, 2015 at 12:57:36 am

Bob,

Am I correct in understanding that I should set the width and height values (red outlined area in screenshot) to 720x480 in order for DV to properly down-sample?



This would not work for me as I need the full contents of the clip - not just a portion of it. I sure hope this isn't the only solution or I am in trouble.


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Bob Peterson
Re: Down-sampling in SV
on Sep 2, 2015 at 2:33:30 am

No, for my suggestion, you would choose the output size within project properties which is 720 x 480. Then, within the pan/crop window, you would right click on the image in the pan/crop screen and choose the setting of "Match Output Aspect". That would tell Vegas that it should limit the HD screen size to what is specified for project output which is 720 x 480.

Does that mean that you won't be able to see the full HD image? The answer is yes. You can pan the image, but you will be unable to see the full HD image all at once on your screen. If you need the full HD image to be visible, then my suggestion won't help. My answer was premised on the statement that you are outputting to DVD. The only way that I know of to output full HD to DVD is to letter box the HD image. That means you will have black bars at the top and bottom of the screen because the HD image aspect ratio cannot be displayed full screen within the DVD standard. My understanding is that DVDs display 720 x 480. Even widescreen is limited to those dimensions.

Vegas will letterbox the HD video if necessary to make it fit. You don't need to make adjustments for that to happen.


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John Rofrano
Re: Down-sampling in SV
on Sep 2, 2015 at 10:43:28 am

[Bob Peterson] "My understanding is that DVDs display 720 x 480. Even widescreen is limited to those dimensions."
Actually DVD's don't use square pixels so NTSC DVD Widescreen is 873x480 in square pixels and PAL DVD Widescreen is 1049x576 in square pixels and both have an aspect ratio that is actually slightly wider than HD.

The question is whether the SD material is DV or not because DV also uses non-square pixels.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Steve Mason
Re: Down-sampling in SV
on Sep 2, 2015 at 1:15:02 pm

I upped the quality to 9M CBR and the DC coefficient to 10 - I left the "stretch to fit" checked and while not perfect, the footage looks decent.

Thanks to you gents for the assist.

Cheers


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