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A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)

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Blake Gibson
A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 14, 2015 at 4:32:33 pm

Hello all!

I have this weird problem and a few questions about Vegas Pro 12 and I hope you guys don't mind helping out! I'll number the questions so they're easier to track. I really hope you wise folk can shed some light on this. I apologise for the long post! Trying to add as much info as possible and organise it to make it as easy as possible to decipher.

I filmed a concert on my Blackmagic Pocket Cinema Camera recently, 240 clips altogether, all in Prores HQ totaling 116GB.

I've filmed and edited a lot in Prores HQ before, mainly shorts and other such things without any issues. I normally just drag and drop the files straight into my vegas timeline and it works fine (some times it lags when I add plugins and colour grade etc, but I change the preview window resolution). For this concert project I was going through each clip individually in windows, reviewing in VLC and dragging and dropping the files I wanted to use as I went into Vegas, roughly organising them in vegas into sections/groups with descriptive markers.

All was going well until I got to 118 clips, switching windows between vegas and other apps: firefox, or just back to windows explorer, vegas takes a little while to catch up/load, this time got increasingly longer the more clips I added until eventually (118 clips) it just got stuck on loading (windows spinning wheel) and I had to end the task in task manager, it came up with an error about the fileiosurrogate.exe (can't remember exactly what). Each time I tried to open the project file it just hung on the loading windows wheel. I managed to finally get it open and this is where the weird problem started:

The preview window went black after I was switching quality settings in the preview window display to find a semi-decent quality preview that still played smoothly, it was working fine up until that. Now its black, no video, but audio still there. So I closed vegas and re-opened it and that seemed to fix it. It worked for a little bit then went black again. Every time I close vegas and re-open and it works for a while, then goes black again randomly.

I figured that there was simply too much data in my timeline so I would try creating proxies for the files. I tried creating proxies for all 118 files at once by right clicking on the clips in the media area and "create video proxy", but got an error "error occurred while creating a proxy file for a stream... system low on memory" etc... Lots of mucking around later I managed to create proxies for all the 118 clips by only having vegas running and doing 10 or 20 clips at a time (30 was ok, 40 ran out of memory again, so I stuck to 20 at a time to be safe). The black preview window issue was still there, it plays for a little bit normally but clicking around to different clips and it goes black again.

I found a couple of suggestions online to try:

options - preferences - video GPU acceleration for video processing - switch to "off" .... Mine was already set to off by default, I don't have any other option there in that dropdown, my video card is listed like in the tutorial video i found.

Options - mute all video .... this is not ticked. It plays briefly then turns black so it can't be this.

Options - preferences - general - close media files when not the active application... this was ticked by default, unticked it but that didn't change anything.

So, the questions:

1) Any ideas on this black preview window issue? It happens regardless of whether I have the split screen/bypass FX button on or not. Pretty sure its a bug because it works, then doesn't randomly.

2) What is the best way to reliably work with large projects with large/high data rate files? I need to import another 120 videos, which are larger than what I've already imported (37GB is what I've already imported, around 70GB left)
2.1) The out of memory error I got when creating large chunks of proxies, would getting more ram stop this? I've got 8GB at the moment

3)I created the proxies but how do I know this worked properly and I'm editing through the proxies and not the original/native files?
3.1) Do the proxies need to be in the timeline in order to create proxies or can they just be in the project media area? I tried the latter and it didn't work. The problem is that if I go through and add clips to the timeline natively I'm risking it because I almost lost my whole project this way earlier.
3.2) At full best the preview resolution is still 1920x1080, I understand its supposed to be lower?
3.3) The actual proxy files have been created in the video folder on my HDD (sfvp0 files) BUT the project still lags when playing at best full resolution as if it were the native prores files.
3.4) the project still takes a long time to load, same time as when they were the original/native files
3.5) I still get about a 10-20 second delay when going in and out of vegas, when i switch back to vegas I get the windows loading spinning weheel. EDIT: 30 mins later and I'm actually NOT getting this anymore! This was a thorn in my side in general.. yay! Me = 1 Sony Vegas = 99 EDIT 2: Tested with other project files that I didn't do proxies for and also no lag, will monitor this.

4) 90% of the time I close vegas I get a "vegas pro has stopped working" error come up after its closed, which seems to depend on the size of the project (the larger the more often it happens), not really a concern as it doesn't seem to be doing any harm, just thought I'd mention it: http://i57.tinypic.com/2czxdnc.jpg

Thanks so much for taking time to read this. I know its long and I really appreciate the time you guys put aside to help us newbies!


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John Rofrano
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 14, 2015 at 5:04:05 pm

Vegas Pro does not support large projects of QuickTime files because it uses 32-bit QuickTime on Windows and is limited to 2GB of memory regardless of how much memory your PC actually has. This is why you're getting out of memory errors.

If you want to use Vegas Pro, find another program that can convert all of your ProRes files into a non-QuickTime format. Maybe CineForm AVI or Sony MXF. See if the free GoPro Studio will convert them to CineForm files? Those should edit nicely in Vegas Pro. Maybe even try and use the free Sony Catalyst Browse?

My advice... if you want to shoot ProRes, buy a Mac and get FCP X. That's what that camera was designed to work with.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Blake Gibson
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 15, 2015 at 6:09:27 am
Last Edited By Blake Gibson on Jul 15, 2015 at 6:23:29 am

Thanks so much for all the replies guys, pure gentlemen! I'm pretty stressed about this because its my first proper paid gig and this client does lots of events so a chance for return business etc. I'm not sure how to make a post to a thread, it's only letting me reply to people.


Anyway, thanks for the response John,

OK that makes sense, I was speaking to a guy that routinely edites using premiere CC on windows and edits with large prores hq files and h264 over 500 clips and doesn't have any issues, so its' not a windows issue, just a vegas issue like you said.

What about if I transcode to DNXHD and start again? I normally export to DNXHD anyway and then through handbrake (h264) for web delivery, do you think vegas will still die like you mentioned as well? I seem to remember something about DNXHD exporting being linked to quicktime in some way so maybe not. (the final video will only be 3-4 minutes)

I thought this is what creating proxies was for, isn't it supposed to transcode it into a more edit friendly format, then link back to the originals for exporting? And I'm exporting to DNXHD...


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John Rofrano
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 15, 2015 at 2:06:20 pm

[Blake Gibson] "I was speaking to a guy that routinely edites using premiere CC on windows and edits with large prores hq files and h264 over 500 clips and doesn't have any issues, so its' not a windows issue, just a vegas issue like you said. "
Yes, Premiere wrote their own support for QuickTime files so they don't have this limitation. It's important to note that Premiere is cross platform so they have Mac developers which probably helped them support QuickTime on Windows better and it's in their best interest to do so for their Windows customers who interact with their Mac customers.
[Blake Gibson] "What about if I transcode to DNXHD and start again?"
Nope. DNxHD is QuickTime codec so it has the same limitations in Vegas Pro. You need to use AVI, MTS, or MXF and not MOV files.
[Blake Gibson] "I thought this is what creating proxies was for, isn't it supposed to transcode it into a more edit friendly format, then link back to the originals for exporting?"
Yes, assuming that your NLE can load the originals for export. The problem is that Vegas Pro can't do this! So proxies won't help. You need a Digital Intermediary (DI) not a proxy.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Bob Peterson
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 14, 2015 at 5:17:38 pm

You did not tell us what the specs on your computer are. You did say there is 8GB of memory. Most people recommend at least 16GB, so it sounds like the machine may be underpowered.

It was definitely a good move to turn off the option to close files when Vegas loses focus. This almost certainly was the cause of the increasingly slower return to Vegas as the number of files increased. It may also have played a large role in causing Vegas to crash.

Many people break up large projects by using nested veg files. That technique may work better than trying to generate proxies. If you do use proxies, you might want to check VASST. I'm pretty sure that they have software will manage the generation and use of proxies for you. John Rofrano knows much more about this than I do.


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John Rofrano
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 14, 2015 at 5:29:06 pm

[Bob Peterson] "If you do use proxies, you might want to check VASST. I'm pretty sure that they have software will manage the generation and use of proxies for you. John Rofrano knows much more about this than I do."
The problem with proxies is at some point you need to swap in the "real" media to render and that's when Vegas Pro will simply die! The only solution is to not use that many QuickTime files with Vegas Pro. Converting to CineForm would be a solution because you would do your final render with CineForm.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Bob Peterson
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 14, 2015 at 7:01:01 pm

Ok. I've always suspected that Apple deliberately crippled Quick Time on Windows for this very reason. Apple has never wanted to work across platforms even back in the early days. A bit like Sony. Once you buy into a product, you have to get everything, both hardware and software, from Apple because that's the only way it will really work.


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John Rofrano
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 14, 2015 at 11:38:20 pm

[Bob Peterson] "I've always suspected that Apple deliberately crippled Quick Time on Windows for this very reason."
They didn't cripple it. They simply didn't update from 32-bit to 64-bit and Microsoft certainly doesn't provide any incentive because it's 2015 and Microsoft is still selling 32-bit versions of Windows 10? What are they thinking??? (and apparently nobody can believe it) So Apple is just appealing to the lowest common denominator set by Microsoft. Why should they care if Microsoft doesn't? Apple dosen't even have any other software that runs on Windows other than iTunes and that does have a 64-bit version. Both software are free so Apple would receive absolutely no revenue from providing a 64-bit version of QuickTime. It doesn't make good business sense (i.e., no return on investment).

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Blake Gibson
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 15, 2015 at 12:19:25 pm
Last Edited By Blake Gibson on Jul 15, 2015 at 12:22:19 pm

John, I was doing some more reading and saw some more of your posts in other threads and saw that DNXHD has the same issue as Quicktime, so I guess that's out. I've committed to the fact that I will have to transcode all my footage to some more vegas friendly, which I don't mind as I can batch process and leave it overnight.

So what do you think the best option would be? Cineform AVI, HDCAM or MXF? I'm just concerned about the quality loss. Grading will probably be a LUT i've already selected with light colour correction (saturation mainly, a bit of 3-way colour wheels) but I would like to keep the 10bit 422 and high bitrate if possible all the way until delivery, which will be online (YT/Vimeo etc), export via DNXHD 185 10bit.

Downloading gopro studio now to test out.

Sorry that my replies are all over the shop!


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Blake Gibson
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 15, 2015 at 1:24:45 pm

John, I downloaded gopro studio and it doesn't seem to recognise the prores files, or DNXHD files. It regonises my h264 files from canon 5D3 though.


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John Rofrano
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 15, 2015 at 2:33:43 pm

[Blake Gibson] "I downloaded gopro studio and it doesn't seem to recognise the prores files, or DNXHD files. It regonises my h264 files from canon 5D3 though."
Yea, I wasn't sure if it would but it was worth a shot. I was just trying to find you a free solution.

My plug-in VASST GearShift $49 USD can do the batch rendering for you. Now that you have the CineForm codec from GoPro Studio, you can crate a template in Vegas Pro and use it with GearShift. Just load all of your QuickTime files into GearShift and select the CineForm template and it will load the QuickTime files one at a time and render them to CineForm. So you could have 1000 QuickTime files it doesn't matter, it's only going to load one at a time and render it to a new file.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Blake Gibson
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 16, 2015 at 12:31:38 am

Thanks John. So this gets around the iosurrogate 32bit issue? Thats great. My question is, is cineform the best option? In your first reply you said "Maybe Cineform or Sony MXF", and Aaron says HDCAM-SR might be really good too and won't have the same issues as prores/dnxhd.

I had a look at your link, does it convert to any other files too? Like Sony MXF or something just in case Cineform isn't the best option?


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John Rofrano
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 16, 2015 at 12:07:53 pm

[Blake Gibson] "In your first reply you said "Maybe Cineform or Sony MXF", and Aaron says HDCAM-SR might be really good too and won't have the same issues as prores/dnxhd."
CineForm is a digital intermediary codec just like ProRes so it's designed for editing and rendering over, and over, and over, again with no visual loss. HDCAM-SR is just a lossy codec like all other lossy codecs. Same for Sony MXF. Lots of people use these to edit because the quality is so good that they can't see any loss but they are not digital intermediaries. That's why I said "maybe Sony MXF" because at 50Mbps you're not going to see any loss unless you re-render several times.

You could say that CineForm is Window's answer to ProRes. It's a digital intermediary that is stored in a windows native AVI container just like ProRes is a digital intermediary that is stored in a Mac native QuickTime MOV container. People have moved away from using it once CineForm "the company" was purchased by GoPro and is no longer sold separately. They discontinued several of their products which pissed a lot of people off (including me). That doesn't take away from the fact that it's a great digital intermediary codec.

Here is what GoPro has to say from their web site when asked the following question:
Does the free version of Studio include the same codec features as Premium and Pro?

On Windows, the ability to encode into the GoPro CineForm codec at 10-bit 4:2:2, 4:4:4 and 4:4:4:4 color depth using third party applications is included in the latest version of GoPro Studio. The Filmscan 1 and Filmscan 2 quality settings are also available. On Windows systems, this support is currently limited to Video for Windows encoding tools with DirectShow support coming soon.
Based on that it's a great codec that's designed for exactly what you want to do. As I said, VASST GearShift will batch render all of your footage to CineForm with just a few mouse clicks. Job done!

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Blake Gibson
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 16, 2015 at 2:00:03 pm

Thanks John, I've just been doing tests with HDCAM SR all night (I'm in Australia), I'll do the same tests with Cineform tomorrow, or Saturday. Vegas will handle LOTS of Cineform files OK do you think?

I'm trying to figure out the best quality for uploading to YT/Vimeo:

Because I can't export from prores Vegas to DNXHD, I have to go with one of the AVI options:

Prores > HDCAM SR Lite > Lagarith > Handbrake h264

Or straight from Vegas as a H264 (mainconcept) but I find handbrake much better at a much lower file size.

What would you recommend as an export workflow whether I use cineform or hdcam sr or something else? Lagarith might not be the best option, so Cineform might be better as you said, would this be the best option:

after editing/grading etc: Cineform > handbrake h264 (that would mean I've gone from Prores > Cineform > Cineform > Handbrake

Phew, this is hard yakka!


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John Rofrano
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 17, 2015 at 11:11:58 am

[Blake Gibson] "Vegas will handle LOTS of Cineform files OK do you think?"
CineForm was once shipped as part of Vegas Pro (back in version 6 I believe). Due to some licensing mumbo-jumbo it was removed after several releases but the template remained but that was Sony's answer to Apple's ProRes digital intermediary format. Back when computers were too weak to playback HDV at full frame rates, many utilities like CineForm Neo Scene, and VASST GearShift sprung up to convert HDV to CineForm which played back buttery smooth even on old Dual Core computers. So yea, I think Vegas Pro can handle lots and lots of CineForm files.
[Blake Gibson] "I'm trying to figure out the best quality for uploading to YT/Vimeo:"
I use MainConcept AVC with the Internet HD 1080p template.
[Blake Gibson] "after editing/grading etc: Cineform > handbrake h264 (that would mean I've gone from Prores > Cineform > Cineform > Handbrake"
If you want to use Handbreak then that's the proper sequence. You can render and re-render to CneForm 10 times and not see any degradation in quality. This is what that codec is designed to do (be used in a production pipeline of multiple application transfers).
[Blake Gibson] "Phew, this is hard yakka!"
It's only hard because you're not using Mac. If you were using a Mac it would just be ProRes all the way. That's why professional editor use Mac's. Lots of camera manufacturers are optimizing their workflow around ProRes to make it easier to edit. You are making it harder by buying one of these "Mac optimized" cameras and then using a PC. :(

I would never buy a camera that shoots ProRes if I was using a PC to edit.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Blake Gibson
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 17, 2015 at 4:28:17 pm

Yep, I know that now. The Pocket cam is just too good to say no to!

That said, prores isn't too bad on Windows it seems apart from Vegas. My friend edited a short I shot on my pocket cam in Premiere CC and it didn't crash once he tells me, 210 files totalling 356gb (he used all the files in the project too)


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John Rofrano
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 18, 2015 at 2:09:56 pm

[Blake Gibson] "That said, prores isn't too bad on Windows it seems apart from Vegas."
Yes, this is primarily a Vegas Pro limitation.
[Blake Gibson] "My friend edited a short I shot on my pocket cam in Premiere CC and it didn't crash once he tells me, 210 files totalling 356gb (he used all the files in the project too)"
Adobe Premiere Pro does not use the 32-bit QuickTime subsystem on Windows. They include their own support for processing QuickTime files which is why they don't have this limitation. Sony was never big on QuickTime so they just use the support provided. Remember that Adobe also runs on Mac which only works with QuickTime so it's a more relevant container for Adobe customers than Sony.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Norman Black
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 19, 2015 at 7:16:20 pm

[John Rofrano] "[Blake Gibson] "after editing/grading etc: Cineform > handbrake h264 (that would mean I've gone from Prores > Cineform > Cineform > Handbrake"
If you want to use Handbreak then that's the proper sequence. You can render and re-render to CneForm 10 times and not see any degradation in quality. This is what that codec is designed to do (be used in a production pipeline of multiple application transfers)."


Handbrake cannot read the Cineform codec.


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Blake Gibson
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 20, 2015 at 12:10:57 am

Yeah that sucks :(

I could render out from Vegas in Cineform again, then run that through Cliptoolz V2 to DNXHD, then to handbrake, according to what John says, that shouldn't be a problem quality wise


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John Rofrano
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 20, 2015 at 2:19:45 pm

[Norman Black] "Handbrake cannot read the Cineform codec."
I'm not sure why you believe this to be true but I can assure you that it works perfectly fine on my Windows 7 64-bit computer so I know for a fact that it works (and I just encoded a CineForm file with Handbreak to prove to myself that it hadn't broken). ;-)

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Blake Gibson
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 21, 2015 at 12:44:50 am

Damn, it doesn't work for me either.

The file imports and shows up fine as the source but when I encode it says something like "Handbrake can't read the file" or something, I'll double check again later when I'm at home.


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John Rofrano
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 21, 2015 at 12:33:27 pm

[Blake Gibson] "The file imports and shows up fine as the source but when I encode it says something like "Handbrake can't read the file" or something"
Do you have the CineForm codec installed? You need CineForm to read CineForm. I have the free GoPro Studio installed and it works fine for me.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Blake Gibson
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 21, 2015 at 2:11:37 pm

I installed Gopro studio the same day you recommended it and I've been exporting to Cineform just fine from Vegas in all flavours so I assume everything should be fine.

Just tested in Handbrake again and the error is "must first scan a source" even though when I open a cinfeform file it scans (it even says scanning showing a percentage, finishes and the filename is up in the source section, weird. I just noticed there's an update available so I'll try that tomorrow (currently on version 0.9.9.5530 64 bit)


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Blake Gibson
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 15, 2015 at 6:22:38 am

Sorry Bob, Specs are: Windows 7 64bit, 8gb ram DDR3 1600mhz, i7 processor (4479k LGA1150 3x5ghz 8mb cache haswell), mother board is asus 787m-plus. My video fils are on an internal 4TB 3.5" HDD that is running through a USB 3 HDD caddy

Nested Veg files is something I've never heard of. It looks interesting and I'll have to experiment with it, but I'm rushed for this project as its a paying client. Is it practical in terms of being able to export as 1 video and edit freely?

I checked VASST, it appears that you're referring to a vegas plug in that will manage proxies for me? I honestly don't mind generating the proxies if it's going to work, its fine. But I'm not even sure if proxies in this case will work. I don't even know if the proxies worked as it feels and looks exactly the same as it did when editing native prores files in my timeline.


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Aaron Star
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 14, 2015 at 10:04:29 pm

Assuming your footage is 1080-60p,30p or 24p in Prores HQ, I would take small sample of your media clips, and convert them to HDCAM-SR-422 (SQ) or HDCAM-SR-Lite.MXF.

HDCAM-SR-SQ (MPEG2) would be the Sony/Vegas = to Prores 422 HQ at around 400mbs.

HDCAM-SR-Lite (MPEG4) would be more than likely acceptable working copy of Prores HQ at 220mbs.

HDCAM is intra-frame like Prores, highly optimized in Vegas, and will not suffer from the file limitations of QuickTime.

Make sure to convert to HDCAM in 32-bit-FP video level mode, then edit in 8-bit, and render in 32FPVL mode. If your system configuration is good with GPU, Vegas will play real-time with effects, even at these high bit rates in 8-bit mode.

I think a lot of people just think HDCAM is some old tape format, but actually it has been updated through the years. SR-Lite is the latest version, which is an Studio Level of MPEG4, and 12 channels of audio.

HDCAM
http://www.shift-4.com/f5-and-f55-sstp-sr-codec-explained/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HDCAM

http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/assetDownloadController/srwfamily.pdf?path=Asset%2...


XAVC would be usable too, but the Vegas implementation does not allow full encoding capabilities of this new codec. Currently Vegas appears to limit the codec to about 10bit video and 100mbs, when the codec is capable of 12bit video and 600mbs.


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Blake Gibson
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 15, 2015 at 6:35:09 am

Thanks Aaron,

Its 1080 25p and prores hq (10 bit 422)

What would be the best way to convert to HDCAM? Any free programs? (I'll be looking later on after work too), if you mean convert within Vegas, John was saying earlier that that might not work because its linking back to the original prores files for exporting. Of course, I can try a sample as you suggested.

At this point I just want to get through this particular video and then I might think about using premiere for larger projects and Vegas for the smaller stuff I do (I really do like Vegas very much). So converting my prores files to something might else might be the easiest way to go, initially I'm thinking DNXHD as I'm more familiar with it and I really don't want to lose any quality of this project


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Aaron Star
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 15, 2015 at 8:49:43 pm

As John states above, VASST makes batch rendering add-on for Vegas. Vegas also comes with batch rendering scripts that are not as full featured. The Vegas script basically turns the Vegas timeline into a batch render queue.

Mainly you would just drop a reasonable amount of clips on a Vegas timeline and have Vegas create them for you. There is a Vegas script that will auto add regions by clip event, then the another batch render script will render the regions as separate files. I altered the default script to use the region names as file names. Otherwise the default script uses a weird auto naming with codec type and bitrate for names.

The workflow is very much the like old AVID days when all media was converted to the AVID codec to be worked. In this case you are converting to the Sony/Vegas codec to be edited. If you are not scaling you could render in GOOD quality for better speed, but compare the results on your system to see if this is worth it.

Make sure to do your conversion in FP32 video levels, or you will lose your 10bit video information, and end up with 8-bit files inside broadcast codec.


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Blake Gibson
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 16, 2015 at 12:17:38 am

Aaron, when you say "Make sure to do your conversion in FP32 video levels, or you will lose your 10bit video information, and end up with 8-bit files inside broadcast codec." Do you mean when making the proxies make sure the project is 32bit floating? Because doesn't it link back to the originals when exporting anyway? I normally export in 10bit DNXHD from Vegas and I've checked in mediainfo and it retains the 10bit. (this is good to know even if proxies are not going to work for my current dilemma).

I'm not exactly clear on whether or not you're saying I can render/export from Vegas as a different format, eg: drop my prores files into vegas, render/export out as something else more vegas friendly (I noticed Vegas has a cineform option under AVI) and have them all as seperate files even though they're all in the one timeline in Vegas. This would be good as I need to convert all my prores files for this project.

Sorry but I'm a bit confused!

That said, going back to your original post, what is the best way to convert to HDCAM-SR? If from Vegas, again: is it possible to batch process a selection of files (say 30 at a time to get around the iosurrogate error) them all as seperate files?

Thanks!


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Aaron Star
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 16, 2015 at 2:03:00 am

There are 2 separate discussions here. One on building proxies, and the other is just convert your Prores to HDCAM and edit. Clearly the proxy editing of the prores content has a show stopper, without busting up your edit into smaller chunks. Proxy edit is up to the editor to determine the best workflow that maintains the image quality from the source.

If you need to go to edit Prores and deliver in Prores, then edit on FCP.

I have never gotten the AVI to Cineform to work on my Vegas. I think I need the actual licensed version of Cineform to write that format, and the codec installed is read only.

If you are doing 10-bit or higher work, you should be doing your math with a precision higher than 8-bit (vegas project default.) The codec will compress what ever you feed it and store it a 422 10-bit file format. You can feed the codec 1-bit black or white video, but the codec will store that image as 10-bit 422.

Edit picture in 8-bit for speed. Color correct, set blurs, and render finals in fp32vl.


Converting to HDCAM, yes use Vegas timeline in groups of files.


Try your own timeline playback test on your footage in FP32VL project mode. On my machine the ProresHQ 24p clip I found:

Prores-HQ playback (170Mbs) is 16FPS

DNxHD conversion (210mbs-10bit)is 8FPS

HDCAM SR (360mbs-10bit) is 21.5FPS - showing lower overhead and optimization

HDCAM SR Lite (180mbs-10bit) is 21.5 FPS


Try scrubbing on the timeline quickly back and forth:

ProRes the frame counter gives a single wait indicator occasionally(...) as Vegas indexes to the frame.

DNxHD - the frame counter gives .. wait indicators (...) as Vegas indexes to the frame.

HDCAM no ... indicators and instant scrubbing.

In 8-bit project mode that optimization in playback means smoother dissolves and more layers of composites with smooth playback, or real time effects.


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Blake Gibson
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 16, 2015 at 3:37:52 am
Last Edited By Blake Gibson on Jul 16, 2015 at 3:39:39 am

Thanks for that Aaron, I will try HDCAM-SR for sure. I think SR-Lite will be fine, as the bitrate is pretty much the same as the prores originals I think (185 @25p)

And I will switch to 32bit FP project prior to exporting ALWAYS now. Thanks for that tip again.

So, onto the converting of my prores from Vegas, I'm still not 100% clear on this process(sorry!)

I'm assuming I'll import say, 20 prores files just to be safe, push them all together in my timeline and export those 20 prores files as 1 HDCAM file? Or is there a way to batch process those 20 files so they come out as 20 separate HDCAM files?

Do you know of any third party programs that can batch process from prores to HDCAM-SR? I like cliptoolz converter v2 but that doesn't have HDCAM-SR, it has:

Prores, h.264, h.265, dnxhd, OP1a MXF, MPEG Intra, MJPEG 220M, Wrap to MOV, QL RLE RGBA, OP1 ATOM MXF, TIFF 48-bit (more info down the bottom of this page: http://hdcinematics.com/ClipToolz-ConvertV2-UserGuide.html)


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Aaron Star
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 16, 2015 at 8:32:18 am
Last Edited By Aaron Star on Jul 16, 2015 at 8:38:34 am

"I'm assuming I'll import say, 20 prores files just to be safe, push them all together in my timeline and export those 20 prores files as 1 HDCAM file? Or is there a way to batch process those 20 files so they come out as 20 separate HDCAM files?"


Yes you have the rough idea, Vegas would be your batch tool using scripting.


You should read the help file on how to run scripts in Vegas.

Basically you go to Tools > Scripting > select the script you want to run.

Download this .zip file : Vegas-Region-Batch.zip

Copy the scripts to your Vegas Script folder:
"C:\Program Files\Sony\Vegas Pro 13.0\Script Menu"

Open Vegas and you should see the scripts under the Tools > Scripting menu.

#1 adds regions to all clip events on the timeline.

#2 batch renders the clip regions to whatever codec you choose, or multiple codecs you choose.

You can use "Edit Details" window to copy&paste selected event names to the region names, or
just type the name you want into the region name field / Timeline Flag.

Then run # 2 script to batch encode, and ignore the file naming field as this will be the region name.


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Blake Gibson
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 16, 2015 at 10:12:05 am
Last Edited By Blake Gibson on Jul 16, 2015 at 10:30:06 am

Excellent! Thank you Aaron! I will do it overnight *fingers crossed*

I'm currently doing HDCAM SR tests and by the looks of things it's VERY close to DNXHD.

I normally export from Vegas as DNXHD 185 RGB, then run it through handbrake to get a good h264 for web. But because I can't export the large project to DNXHD with the 32bit/fileiosurrogate issues, I will need to export to something else first that won't kill vegas. I'm experimenting with Lagarith, then running that through handbrake and so far the quality results are equally good. Or maybe h264 straight from Vegas but handbrake is visibly better

I'm assuming any of the AVI codecs will work and won't have the issue?


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John Rofrano
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 16, 2015 at 12:11:14 pm

[Aaron Star] "I have never gotten the AVI to Cineform to work on my Vegas. I think I need the actual licensed version of Cineform to write that format, and the codec installed is read only."
After installing GoPro Studio, you have to edit the CineForm template in Vegas Pro and select CineForm as the format again. I believe the name of the codec changed and the Vegas Pro template is still pointing to the old name. It's just a matter of fixing the existing template or creating you own. I would also press the Configure button and select the proper configuration options for your footage.

I use this so I know it works. ;-)

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Blake Gibson
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 16, 2015 at 2:02:18 pm
Last Edited By Blake Gibson on Jul 16, 2015 at 2:05:40 pm

Sorry John, didn't see this until now, still getting the hang of this forum layout.

Sounds like Cineform might be the way to go! Do you happen to have a tutorial on your site for this?

And how large a project have you successfully used with Cineform in Vegas? would it be able to handle my 240 clips (116gb total size)?


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John Rofrano
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 17, 2015 at 11:25:26 am

[Blake Gibson] "Sounds like Cineform might be the way to go! Do you happen to have a tutorial on your site for this?"
I sure do. ;-)

Creating Cineform Templates

I need to update it for the new Vegas Pro GUI but you should be able to follow it.
[Blake Gibson] "And how large a project have you successfully used with Cineform in Vegas? would it be able to handle my 240 clips (116gb total size)?"
I don't use CineForm. I have no need for it. I shoot HDV and AVCHD and have no problems editing these formats. I've edited projects with over 100 HDV, AVCHD, and MXF files and had no problems. Nothing close to 240 though. As I said in my other post, CineForm was once shipped as part of Vegas 6 thru Vegas Pro 8 so it should have no problems handling lots of these files.

Your problem with QuickTime was that Vegas Pro doesn't have native support so it relied on the 2GB 32-bit QuickTime for Windows subsystem. CineForm is handled natively by Vegas Pro so it's going to use all of the memory your 64-bit computer can throw at it. The question might be, does your computer have enough memory to handle 240 files open at once?

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Blake Gibson
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 17, 2015 at 4:09:51 pm
Last Edited By Blake Gibson on Jul 17, 2015 at 4:31:14 pm

Excellent. I will do a cineform test clip tomorrow and see how it goes. I did a lot of tests with HDCAM SR last night and something wasn't right about it.

Just not 100% on why I can't use the Cineform that's already in Vegas. I'm not questioning you at all I'm just curious. Come to think of it I can't be 100% certain that Cineform was in Vegas before I installed Gopro Studio but I'm assuming it was.

Apologies if I'm missing something but what I understand from what you've said is its the old version in Vegas, installing gopro studio is the "new" version but Vegas can't access it unless you create a new template which effectively "links" it to the new version of cineform? (and the new version somehow might and probably does work better than the old version for some reason)

Assuming that's correct, how will I know that it's indeed using the new version and not the old version?

I'll more than likely get another 8gb ram tomorrow, so I'll have 16gb. Then if I need more I'll get more. I just checked another video I recently edited that was relatively large, 90gb worth of footage, but only 16 files and I didn't have an issue at all with it at all. So its definitely the amount of files first, then the size of them it seems.

EDIT:

Just did a test export from vegas to cineform, VLC couldn't play it and handbrake didn't read it. I'll wait till I do your template trick first though before I start stressing.


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John Rofrano
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 18, 2015 at 2:05:28 pm

[Blake Gibson] "Just not 100% on why I can't use the Cineform that's already in Vegas. I'm not questioning you at all I'm just curious. Come to think of it I can't be 100% certain that Cineform was in Vegas before I installed Gopro Studio but I'm assuming it was."
Vegas Pro no longer ships with the CineForm codec. I believe Vegas 6 thru Vegas Pro 8.0 contained the CineForm codec. Then starting with Vegas Pro 9.0 it was no longer part of Vegas but Sony left the template in for people who had the older codec. Unless you have an older version of Vegas Pro installed, you do not have the old CineForm codec.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Blake Gibson
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 19, 2015 at 11:31:00 am
Last Edited By Blake Gibson on Jul 19, 2015 at 11:43:57 am

Ah ok John. I must have already had it somehow. Anyway, update:

I've successfully rendered all 240 prores files as Cineform filmscan 2 422 YUV using Aaron's scripts above in lots of 75. I will purchase you script on the next job John, this job doesn't pay enough to justify it unfortunately and I wanted to make sure that Cineform was an actual fix/workaround and worked reliably.

So, I dropped 50 cineform files onto the timeline and it was fine, the filesurrogate didn't even flinch, was sitting happily at around 50-100mb usage in task manager. I tried it with the same 50 prores files and the filesurrogate jumped up to 800mb, so surprises here.

I then proceeded to dump all the cineform files into the timeline as a test, got to the third batch of 75 and vegas crashed, and kept crashing when I kept trying, I imported 25 at a time from then on and still got crashes, I managed to get all 240 files in (i think, is there a way to count/check the amount of files in a timeline? Can't really find anything on google about this). about 1hr 25m footage, total size is larger due to using filmscan 2 - 147gb vs Prores 116gb. Filesurrogate is happily sitting at around 17mb with everything in the timeline, so that's no longer the problem.

I haven't done much at all yet in terms of editing, but vegas seems to be struggling when I hit CTR+Z to undo, it freezes and shows as not responding but eventually comes good.

I read on a forum that increasing the Dynamic Ram preview MAX (MB) in options > preferences > video, might help with crash in general. At the moment its on 200mb our of 7107 available (8gb ram installed on PC)

Any suggestions on this or anything else that might help?

Will proxies help in this case?

Here is the error code I got with one of the crashes (other times it was the generic "vegas has stopped working")

http://i58.tinypic.com/1zw7x4.jpg

I really appreciate the help I'm getting from you guys, thank you so much


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Blake Gibson
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 19, 2015 at 11:37:40 am

Also, have you guys heard of "UT Video"? Apparently its a "new" codec for windows and MAC, its been around for a while but the stable version was released Feb this year I think?


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John Rofrano
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 19, 2015 at 5:05:42 pm

[Blake Gibson] "I've successfully rendered all 240 prores files as Cineform filmscan 2 422 YUV"
If this project printing back out to film? If not, filmscan2 is way overkill and might be contributing to your problem. The default Vegas Pro template for CineForm used the Medium setting. I have never had a reason to make it higher than that. You might consider using medium or high instead of filmscan 1 or 2.
[Blake Gibson] "Here is the error code I got with one of the crashes (other times it was the generic "vegas has stopped working")"
That error is a memory heap overflow, probably due to a bug in the code. I see that you are on Vegas Pro 12.0 Build 367 and the latest build is 770. You might want to update your Vegas Pro 12.0 to see if Sony has already fixed this problem.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Aaron Star
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 19, 2015 at 6:42:51 pm

Not sure what would be off about HDCAM conversion. I would be interested in understanding this more. Can you upload comparison examples of the differencessence in the native formats?

HDCAM is what star wars:phantom menace was shot and edited in. Sure they used rgb444 mode of hdcam, but if something is off, you might not be doing a 1:1 conversion maintaining levels.


Cineform uses the avi container and that process will have the same limits as dnxhd in mov container. MXF will not have this issue.

If you really need to edit prores, and deliver in dnxhd, avid would be your best tool.

In vegas, prores to hdcam, edit, render hdcam, ffmpeg to dnxhd in MXF or prores. Ffmpeg can be scripted for batch conversions.


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Blake Gibson
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 20, 2015 at 12:09:16 am

Well, the reason why I prefer DNXHD is because I found I get the best results making a h264 from Handbrake using DNXHD rather than a h264 straight from Vegas, at a smaller file size.

I followed your instructions using floating 32bit levels. Here is a comparison, password is pp for both:

Prores HQ > HDCAM SR Lite > h264 12-14mbps 2 pass:

https://vimeo.com/133643784

Prores HQ > h264 12-14mbps 2 pass:

https://vimeo.com/133643785

I'm sure that the files pre-upload looked noticeably different too, but I've done so many tests that I can't be sure. I'll have to recheck that when I get home.


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Blake Gibson
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 19, 2015 at 11:56:01 pm

Not printing to film. Going to web, and a larger master on disc. It might just be me be crazy but I tested CF High and it didn't look as good as Filmscan 2. Notice the top of the bartender's forearm at 2 seconds till the start of 3 seconds when he's lowering the bottle, I might be crazy but to me it goes noticeably fuzzier in the CF high test then it does in the CF Filmscan 2 test. I originally though there was more noise and macroblocking in his shirt too but that seems to be equal now. PW for both is pp

Prores HQ> CF Filmscan 2 > H264 30mbps 2 pass:

https://vimeo.com/133827660

Prores HQ > CF High > H264 30mbps 2 pass:

https://vimeo.com/133823315

And a H264 from the original Prores HQ for comparison:

Prores HQ > H264 30mbps 2 pass:

https://vimeo.com/133824540


I'm a bit hesitant to upgrade as I always read horror stories of Vegas randomly crashing for no apparent reason, I believe mine is pretty stable at the moment apart from this crash. Pretty scary espcially since I'm already behind on this project (which is entirely my fault)


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John Rofrano
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 20, 2015 at 3:02:59 pm

[Blake Gibson] "Not printing to film. Going to web, and a larger master on disc. It might just be me be crazy but I tested CF High and it didn't look as good as Filmscan 2."
So what's you disc subsystem like? Are you using RAID? Could it be that these large files are performing poorly because they are constrained by your disc I/O?
[Blake Gibson] "I'm a bit hesitant to upgrade as I always read horror stories of Vegas randomly crashing for no apparent reason, I believe mine is pretty stable at the moment apart from this crash."
Then you'll need to deal with all of the bugs that were fixed between Build 367 and Build 770. I can't help you there.

Just so you understand the magnitude of this decision... you will be dealing with the bugs that are fixed in Build 394, 486, 563, 670, 710, 714, 726, & 770. Sony has issued 8 patches that you don't have yet. Those 8 patches represent 141 bugs that were fixed!!! You can read about it here: Vegas Pro 12.0 Release Notes

BTW, If you are running a business you should have daily incremental backups of your system. This way if an update causes things to fail you can always get back to the state you had the day before. Anything less, IMHO, is playing with fire.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Blake Gibson
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 21, 2015 at 1:43:55 am

I just read through all the bug fixes, thanks.

This one caught my eye:

"Fixed a bug that could cause a crash when rendering some very large projects to QuickTime format."

I'm guess they only mean specifically TO Quicktime FROM non quicktime files? Like AVCHD to DNXHD or something?

That said, wouldn't the 32bit memory limit apply because its using quicktime?


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Norman Black
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 21, 2015 at 4:12:26 am

[Blake Gibson] "I'm guess they only mean specifically TO Quicktime FROM non quicktime files? Like AVCHD to DNXHD or something?"

That said, wouldn't the 32bit memory limit apply because its using quicktime?


I think they mean rendering to Quicktime. Which means one output file, and the problem being only on large/long projects. The sources are not likely relevant.

On the front end of Vegas you have the file decoders. In the middle you have the video engine. On the back end you have the file encoder (render as). The file encoder has no clue what is going on in the video engine and no clue about the decoders.


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Blake Gibson
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 21, 2015 at 7:18:58 am

OK thanks.

I stumbled across this thread in my travels, it looks interesting, this guys basically found an app that lets you use more than 2gb memory on 32bit exe/dll's... apparently it only works to get around the crashing during render issue in Vegas. I wonder if it would work for the fileiosurrogate.exe:


http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?ForumID=4&Messag...


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John Rofrano
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 21, 2015 at 12:38:21 pm

I would not start messing with executables. If it were that easy, don't you think the Sony developers wold have set that flag when they compiled the code? Something must not have worked for them to not make their 32-bit programs Large Address Aware since hey could have done this themselves.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Blake Gibson
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 21, 2015 at 2:13:08 pm

Yeah thats true. I might have a play with I've got nothing I need done.


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Blake Gibson
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 22, 2015 at 4:07:28 am

John, do you think using the smart proxy feature would help at all? I've rendered from prores hq to Cineform High and am just about to start editing.

I can always change them to proxies with smart proxy later on anyway can't I? Don't have to do that from the beginning?


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John Rofrano
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 22, 2015 at 1:29:02 pm

I thought the proxy feature was introduced in Vegas Pro 13.0 and you are using 12.0. Do you have a proxy option? If so, I think you can turn it on at any time and it should definitely help.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Blake Gibson
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 23, 2015 at 12:44:21 am

Yeah vegas 12 has smart proxy, right click files in the project media tab and select "create video proxy":

http://i58.tinypic.com/nl5tz4.jpg


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John Rofrano
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 23, 2015 at 12:36:33 pm

Awesome! I only have Vegas Pro 13.0 on my MacBook Pro so I couldn't check. I would definitely use proxies to make your editing smoother.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Blake Gibson
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 26, 2015 at 2:03:42 am
Last Edited By Blake Gibson on Jul 26, 2015 at 2:16:52 am

Everything is going well so far, I'm about half way through a 3 minute video. Had Vegas open all day yesterday for 12 hours and didn't have any issues. Still working from proxies from the cineform high files. Some clips had "difficult" effects too, EG: Gaussian blur and twixtor on about 10 clips (although I had to turn effects off periodically when doing real time play backs or else it lags). But no issues with crashing, just a lag when undoing a change (ctrl+z)

I'll update once the whole thing is done.

I have another question though:

You know how you can make an effect globally apply to every clip in the project by dragging and dropping it onto the review window? Is there a way to exclude certain clips in this "global change"? I've tried locking the tracks I don't want the effect applied to but it doesn't work.

Any ideas?

Edit: I just figured out you can apply effects to individual tracks, so I can make new tracks for the clips I don't want the effects applied to. I would still like to know if there is a way to exclude certain clips though

Thanks


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John Rofrano
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 26, 2015 at 12:43:54 pm

[Blake Gibson] "You know how you can make an effect globally apply to every clip in the project by dragging and dropping it onto the review window? Is there a way to exclude certain clips in this "global change"? I've tried locking the tracks I don't want the effect applied to but it doesn't work."
No. Vegas Pro has the most options for applying FX of any NLE so here's what you can do:
  • Video Bus FX: You can apply FX at the Master Video Bus level and the entire project will have the FX applied.

  • Track FX: You can apply FX at the Track level and any event on that track will have the FX applied.

  • Event FX: You can apply FX at the Event level and just that event will have the FX applied.

  • Media FX: You can apply FX at the Media level and any event that uses that media will have the FX applied.

One way to accomplish what you want is to apply the FX at the Track level and then move the events that you want the FX applied to onto those tracks.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Blake Gibson
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 26, 2015 at 11:55:10 pm

Yep that's what I ended up doing, thanks!

By the way, I did a few test exports to DNXHD and they worked fine, the file surrogate didn't flinch and stayed at about 70mb. Weird, but I'm not complaining.


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Norman Black
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 21, 2015 at 4:37:48 pm

[Blake Gibson] "I stumbled across this thread in my travels, it looks interesting, this guys basically found an app that lets you use more than 2gb memory on 32bit exe/dll's... apparently it only works to get around the crashing during render issue in Vegas. I wonder if it would work for the fileiosurrogate.exe:"

Yes, you can try setting the large address aware flag on the executable (fileiosurrogate), for 3GB user space, but you have no idea what the result might be.

Many applications wrongly assume addresses above 0x80000000 (2GB) are system addresses. Even with Sony knows their fileiosurrogate application does not make any such assumptions, they have no idea what assumptions the quicktime code makes. It goes even further. Quicktime has no idea what assumptions the third party codecs, like DNxHD, might make.

It is most likely the case that everyones code does not make any silly assumptions about address range. You can try it, but the millisecond something does not work I would switch it out.


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John Rofrano
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 21, 2015 at 12:35:25 pm

[Blake Gibson] "That said, wouldn't the 32bit memory limit apply because its using quicktime?"
Yes, the 2GB limit due to QuickTime being 32-bit is still in effect. Let's just say that Vegas Pro would not be my first choice of editor if I had to work with QuickTime files.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Blake Gibson
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 21, 2015 at 2:24:29 pm

Not sure how to make a post to threads without replying to someone, just wanted to update so far as someone will eventually have the same issue and be searching:

Did a batch render of all 240 clips to Cineform High from the original prores from vegas in lots of 100 clips each (2 lots of 100 and 1 of 40). Curious to see that some of the Videos didn't play in Windows Media Player, but still had audio, meanwhile some were fine and played normally. I checked them out in Mediainfo and the ones that didn't play all had a much lower bitrate than the ones that did: around 30mbps vs 100-120mbps.

I went back and checked a previous batch render I did of Filmscan 2. I checked each of the 240 videos in media info and made sure they played in WMP and everything was fine, consistent bitrates and all played, the only difference is I rendered in lots of 75 instead of 100. Weird. I went back and re-rendered the High batch again, this time in lots of 75 clips, re-checked each clip in mediainfo and made sure they played in WMP and all was fine and all consistent bitrates.

Only explanation I can think of is that even though Vegas appeared to be handling 100 clips fine, it was at the upper limits and struggling (meaning the fileiosurrogate was almost maxed out).. vegas must have just freaked out and weird inconsistencies happened.

Going forward I would do 50 clips at a time max.


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Blake Gibson
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Aug 12, 2015 at 11:31:22 pm

Just an update, everything went really smoothly up until right at the very end, I would have to keep opening the project and crossing my fingers until it worked because i was getting some weird hardware/video card/open GL error (i don't have the error on hand), even though it wasn't actived in Vegas anywhere. It would throw up that error message then just close vegas, I managed to get it open a couple of times, it didn't happen on any other project when i was troubleshooting.

I figured it was because of the FX I was using (twixtor mainly on some shots)But it eventually openeded up and I exported to DNXHD 185 10bit, which was slow but wen't through without any dramas, as in the file surrogate was LOW and didn't struggle at all.

Thanks for all the help!


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John Rofrano
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Aug 13, 2015 at 1:55:18 am

Thanks for the update. Yea, OpenGL is not used by Vegas Pro but it is used by some FX plug-ins.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Norman Black
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Jul 19, 2015 at 7:44:19 pm
Last Edited By Norman Black on Jul 20, 2015 at 3:31:08 pm

[Blake Gibson] "So, I dropped 50 cineform files onto the timeline and it was fine, the filesurrogate didn't even flinch, was sitting happily at around 50-100mb usage in task manager. I tried it with the same 50 prores files and the filesurrogate jumped up to 800mb, so surprises here."

For Cineform AVI Vegas bypasses Video for Windows since it uses the Cineform SDK to directly use the Cineform codec. I believe I remember reading Newmann from Cineform state with was around Vegas 10, which is after Vegas stopped including Cineform according to JR.

fileiosurrogate is a 32-bit process of Vegas and is only used by 32-bit codecs in Vegas so most things will not touch/use this process. Really only Quicktime comes into this. Curiously the MP3 decoder is also only 32-bit in Vegas.

To Apple Quicktime on Windows is a video player only. A video player only needs to be 32-bit.

(rant on)
Prores is an issue for one reason and one reason only. Apple wants it to be that way. Prores started as an Apple specific clone of DNxHD which was Avid proprietary. The whole intermediate format is a mess because everyone has created their own proprietary formats over time. HDCAM SR, DNxHD, Cineform, Prores. DNxHD and Cineform have recently become SMPTE standards, but you have to pay buck to SMPTE to get the spec and reference source code, and who knows what licensing restrictions remain.

Everyone wants to protect and build their own special turf. Avid and Apple especially. I just which Cineform/GoPro would have just put the codec into public domain. GoPro has no turf to protect and Cineform is an excellent codec. Arguably technically better than the simplistic DCT JPEG type codecs of DNxHD and Prores.

XAVC Intra is the only thing that has a chance to deal with this mixed stew we have right now. It is just AVC with restricted encoding options. The AVC codec is well known as are the MPEG-LA AVC licensing rules.

Vegas keeps all files open at all times and this causes the problem with Quicktime. It is a porker with RAM and DNxHD or Prores codecs. Hitfilm has the same Quicktime file problems with lots of files. Quicktime is what it is and it is important so people like Vegas should work with it. If you don't then customers are stopped in their tracks. Really while editing you do not need a file open that is 10 minutes ahead on the timeline or behind. Having a background thread monitoring and maintaining the file open list is not terribly difficult, but such a change is BIG, and thus maybe dangerous, for people like Vegas to do.
(rant off)


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Aaron Star
Re: A few questions re: proxy editing, large video/project, and a weird blac preview screen problem (Windows PC - Vegas Pro 12)
on Aug 13, 2015 at 7:08:34 pm
Last Edited By Aaron Star on Aug 13, 2015 at 7:28:02 pm

You know there is almost no difference between all these manufacturer codecs in the end. Each proprietary codec is based on the same codecs the others are using, each with their own MPEG-LA licensing. Most differences people see in using the various codecs is generated from converting signals inside a workflow of their own insanity. It takes high end Pro tools that look at the signal differences, and artifacts to make comparisons. The artifacts people see themselves are generally created by their own work on the signal converting.

If you work in Vegas as a primary tool, converting all your master footage to .MXF is your best bet. Then convert your .MXF output to whatever you want via FFMPEG, or use the integrated Sony AVC encoder at 10Mbs+.

Handbrake is pretty much just a FFMPEG front end tool that focuses on one task. This is evident based on the terminology used in quality settings inside handbrake.

I guess I feel like getting the smallest file was more of an 1997-2005 issue, these days file size is not that big of a concern to me. The streaming services all convert your footage to something below 10Mbs-HD. If you stream your own stuff you are going to render multiple stream sizes down to postage stamp sizes. If you are going to DCP, then your file sizes are going to be appropriate for that format.


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