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Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD

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Rick Hughes
Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Jul 7, 2015 at 7:45:00 pm

Have been scanning in family collection of slides for my parents.
nearly 300 so far all form the 1960's

The preparation, cleaning & scanning all done ....... end up with tiff files each of typically 4276 x 2984 around the 21Mb size.

I will adjust each one in Adobe Lightroom and then save .... standard export from Lightooom will give me same resolution but jpeg with file size of around 1.2Mb

I will want to create Blu-Ray and DVD versions of the output.


Couple of Q's ... I know Vegas is often used for a slide collection (previously I have used ProShow Gold)

Is the end result good ? in terms of quality of viewing.

Is the pic resolution & file size OK

Any tips ?


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Wayne Waag
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Jul 7, 2015 at 9:19:33 pm

I've been doing slideshows for years using a combination of Proshow Producer and Vegas. I usually do my animations in Proshow (a lot easier, especially for complex, multi-layered effects), export, and then import into Vegas, adding titles, music, and voiceover tracks. However, for fairly simple slideshows, I've often used Vegas only and the rendered quality is quite good. I really can't tell the difference.

IMHO, the important thing is to resize your images before importing them into either Vegas or Proshow. A good rule of thumb seems to be to resize your images to roughly twice the vertical resolution of your output. E.g. Blu-ray is 1080, so resize your images to 2160. An exception would be if you wanted to really zoom in on only a part of the image. Since you have Lightroom, you could easily export to JPG's with the vertical resolution of your choosing. Regardless, your results will look better using Producer or Vegas.

wwaag


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Steve Rhoden
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Jul 7, 2015 at 10:18:00 pm
Last Edited By Steve Rhoden on Jul 7, 2015 at 10:33:15 pm

And in addition to Wayne's input, You can also use Vasst StillMotion
plugin for Vegas, for a whole lot easier and customizable approach in
creating slideshows with numerous photos and if you intend to do more
in the future.

Steve Rhoden (Cow Leader)
Film Maker & VFX Artist.
Owner of Filmex Creative Media.
Samples of my Work and Company can be seen here:
http://www.facebook.com/FilmexCreativeMedia


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Rick Hughes
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Jul 8, 2015 at 9:45:39 am

what does 'still motion' give over and above just dropping slides on timeline and using standard transition ?

Not knocking this in any way, just keen to understand if it will be of benefit to me.


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Steve Rhoden
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Jul 8, 2015 at 12:37:48 pm
Last Edited By Steve Rhoden on Jul 8, 2015 at 12:44:01 pm

-"just dropping slides on timeline and using standard transition"-
Are you kidding? Trying doing that with say 200 pictures the right
and proper way, by Panning and cropping each photo and then dropping
different transitions between them.... and see when you get done!

-"what does 'still motion' give"-
Download and give the trial a run and you will see the benefit this offers in terms of what i mentioned above.

Steve Rhoden (Cow Leader)
Film Maker & VFX Artist.
Owner of Filmex Creative Media.
Samples of my Work and Company can be seen here:
http://www.facebook.com/FilmexCreativeMedia


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Rick Hughes
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Jul 8, 2015 at 1:22:25 pm

I wasn't trying to be awkward or difficult - hope it diodn't come across that way ....... never used Vegas for this just trying to understand if I should use ProShow Gold or Stillmotion


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Wayne Waag
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Jul 8, 2015 at 3:35:26 pm

You first need to decide exactly what type of animation effects you want to apply. If all you want is some combination of pan, zoom, and rotate, then Vegas will work fine. The advantage of VASST Stillmotion and others such as Vegasaur (my preference), is that it will randomly apply these effects to all of your selected events. As Steve points out, it's a lot easier than doing them individually. I use this approach all the time for what I call a preview or a teaser--just add a title and a music track and you're done.

However, if you want to give some thought to exactly what type of motion to apply to each slide (recommended), then it becomes more difficult within Vegas. For example, zoom 20% bottom to middle on slide 1, pan lower left to upper right on slide 2, etc. Another problem is how to handle photos that were shot in portrait mode rather than landscape, especially in 16x9. Perhaps you want to have two moving portraits within the same frame? What do you do with the black borders? Do you want to present a moving photo with a border perhaps against a fading background? Granted, all of these things can be done within Vegas, but it becomes very laborious. If these are the things you want to do rather than very simple motion effects, use Proshow and consider upgrading to Producer (recommended). The real time-saver is being able to save an effect that you've created and then apply it in the future.

wwaag


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Rick Hughes
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Jul 8, 2015 at 4:55:08 pm

I certainly don't want random effects ... a choice of transitions .... I tend to use no more than 3 or 4 on a project.
Pan & zoom would be nice ... when I want it, and that's it.


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Rick Hughes
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Oct 23, 2015 at 10:16:53 am

Wayne ... thinking that having now completed all the scan \ edits \ resize ... and from this thread know a hell of a lot more about what aspect ratio and Blu-ray format to use.

Your idea of 'up font' creation of slide shows is a good consideration. I have access to ProShow Gold.
So I could create the independent slide sets ... (by year or major Family event)

End game is to then drop these into Movie Studio and with correct project settings Render out as Blu-ray 1920 x 1080, 50i

What file 'export' settings should I use on Proshow .... want to avoid extra transcoding and other such issues.

Within Proshow I see the following options: (others require extra licensed plugins)

HD Disc authoring 1080 50i .mkv
Quicktime movie 1080 50i .H264/AVC


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Wayne Waag
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Oct 23, 2015 at 3:18:19 pm

[Rick]

In my opinion, use of Proshow is definitely the way to go, especially if you have a large number of images. Proshow was designed for slideshow creation-Vegas was not. While you CAN do pretty much the same thing in Vegas, it is usually very tedious and time-consuming. Proshow comes with a large number of pre-defined Slide style effects which you can apply and it also has the ability to create your own. For example, I have created quite a few very simple effects such as Zoom in 15%, Full pan right to left, pan bottom right to upper left, etc. Once you've done this, it is very simple to apply these.

Another example--matching the output aspect ratio. We just went through a number of iterations on how to do this in Vegas. When using Proshow, you simply set in your Preferences--Fill to Frame--done. Of course, use of Proshow also entails a learning curve.

Regarding export settings. I can't help you too much with this since I am usng Proshow Producer, not Gold. One of the advantages of Producer is the larger number of export options. Currently, I use a high bit-rate (60 Mbps) MPEG-2, but I suspect this is not available in Gold. My suggestion is to create a very simple 5 or 10 slide test set, apply some slide style effects and render to different settings and see which one works best for import into Vegas.

Another option is to simply do everything in Proshow. You can add titles, music, etc. and then burn DVDs or Blu-rays directly within Proshow although I have never done so.

wwaag


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Rick Hughes
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Oct 23, 2015 at 4:23:06 pm

Taken your advice .... a little Google on-line and found a 20% off code - and just purchased Pro Show Gold 7

Thanks.

If you have any tips for using it feel free to send them my way .

I used ver 5 a few years back .. it was reasonably intuitive.


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Wayne Waag
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Oct 23, 2015 at 8:41:32 pm

I think you've made the right move, especially since you've used V5 in the past. I'm still using V5 of Producer and have not upgraded to V7. For lots of stills, it is so much easier than Vegas. Good luck.

wwaag


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Rick Hughes
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Oct 23, 2015 at 9:51:10 pm

Wayne ... just spent a few minutes playing with it, and quickly recalled how to use it.
V7 is pretty polished .. and has extremely easy user interface.

A question for you ... I'll create multiple slideshows and then collate into Movie studio where I'll add sound etc. to end up with single Blu-ray disc ...hopefully with menu front end if I can get Architect to work for me (been clumsy with it in the past)

To save each pro-show 'set' what format do you (or should I) save to ? ...

M-JPEG 1080p Quicktime MOV file mpeg-4 for use in 3rd party video editor

mkv using H.264/AVC 1080,50i HD Disc Authoring option

MPEG-4 using H.264 video for editing

** This last option would need a purchase of a plugin for it to be used


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Wayne Waag
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Oct 23, 2015 at 11:11:27 pm
Last Edited By Wayne Waag on Oct 23, 2015 at 11:13:41 pm

To save each pro-show 'set' what format do you (or should I) save to ? ...

Just downloaded and installed the trial version of Gold just to see what export options are available. It turns out that you can use the same MPEG-2 encoding that I use. To bring up the correct windows, select Publish from the toolbar (or Ctrl-p) and on the right select "Custom Video File" under video files. There you can choose MPEG-2 encoding. These are the settings I use.



I did a test render and it would open in Vegas just fine. Suggest you try a test render to see if it works OK in Movie Studio.

wwaag

One correction. I do not apply the anti-flicker filter in Proshow.


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Rick Hughes
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Oct 23, 2015 at 11:30:50 pm
Last Edited By Rick Hughes on Oct 24, 2015 at 3:16:54 pm

Problems …. That MPEG2 option does not work well.

I did a test ‘publish’ of same set of slides …
MKV … smooth motion, clear image
MOV … smooth motion, clear image
MPEG2 … seriously degraded image … highly pixelated, plus Blu-ray player throws up error on ‘unsupported audio format’ …. Even though no audio on any of the samples.
Tried it at frame rate 50 and 50 interlaced … both the same, remaining settings as per this pic.,




Maybe getting to MPEG2 via this custom route does not work correctly.
Short 4 slide sample of the MPEG2 attached:

https://reels.creativecow.net/film/mpeg-sample

for comparison here is H264/MOV:

https://reels.creativecow.net/film/h264-mov-sample

... not sure how the uploads will view ... as even though I selected 'no conversion, still got messages about re-encoding



I also tried MJPEG/mov …. It was 10x the file size of H.264/mov …. But no visible difference in video image quality …

I can't attach MKV as forum does not support that format.

As MKV and MOV seem to work fine …… is there any reason why I should not use one of these, and is one preferable to the other ?




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Wayne Waag
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Oct 24, 2015 at 4:07:58 pm

Good to see that you have done some tests. This is really the only way to find what will work best for your system. Here are a few comments.

MPEG2 … seriously degraded image … highly pixelated, plus Blu-ray player throws up error on ‘unsupported audio format’

The problem is that you have your bit rate set to 6000, not 60,000. That will definitely make a difference. Regarding audio, it seems best to always render in Proshow with the Audio box ticked, even though there is no audio. Once inside Vegas, simply delete the audio track and add your own.

I also tried MJPEG/mov …. It was 10x the file size of H.264/mov …. But no visible difference in video image quality … The reason is that there is much less compression usig MJPEG. Remember that you will have to re-render from Vegas. Although much larger in file size, the final result should be better. Whether that is important or not depends on your judgment.

As MKV and MOV seem to work fine …… is there any reason why I should not use one of these, and is one preferable to the other ? Of the two, MOV is preferred since MKV is not supported in Vegas--at least not in Pro 13. It may work OK in Movie Studio?

As I will be using Vegas Render for Blu-ray at 1920x1080 50i
In the ProShow settings (as per your screen grab) should I set interlacing to 'none' or should it be interlaced.


I would set the interlacing to None, since Vegas will do the interlacing on final render.

Lower down on that same sub-screen it has option 'multplexing' - as I will be creating Blu-ray from Movie studio ... you showed it set to DVD is that still OK ?

I would just leave it set to DVD since you will be getting rid of the audio track once inside Vegas.

Well, it seems like you're making progress. Again, doing test renders and seeing what works best for you and your system is the way to go.

Having now tried both new versions of Proshow (Gold and Producer), my inclination would be to render using MJPEG/MOV rather than H264/MOV. Although file sizes are much larger, the render will be faster and the color levels will be maintained. As a test, import both the MPJEG/MOV and the H264/MOV into Vegas onto different tracks--one on top of the other. Then mute the top track to see if there are any color differences. The MPJEG/MOV should appear "brighter" since it uses the entire range of luminance levels (0 to 255)that are suitable for computer display. The H264/MOV output has already had its luminance levels reduced for TV (16-235). If you decide to use the H264/MOV render, then you will have to boost the levels back to (0-255) using the Levels Fx with the Studio to Computer RGB Preset. Otherwise, your final render will really look washed out.

wwaag


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Rick Hughes
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Oct 24, 2015 at 6:14:02 pm

I saw the 6 ... but forgot to count the zeros .... well spotted

I'll try again and compare MPEG to MJPEG/MOV

I'll also try MKV in Movie Studio ... always good to know ......


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Rick Hughes
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Oct 24, 2015 at 8:08:29 pm
Last Edited By Rick Hughes on Oct 24, 2015 at 8:20:39 pm

Wayne .... Interesting results.

Recreated the MPEG2 version with settings at 60000
First off thought it had failed … my player (5k) just showed first image only and although showed as running - image never changed.
Tried VLC … exactly the same ……… however Splash Lite & MPC-HC both played it fine


For my 30 sec sample

H.264/MOV file is 24MB render time 65 sec
MJPEG/MOV file is 367MB render time 50 sec
MPEG2 file is 231MB render time 58 sec

Interestingly (and tried it twice) the files size (windows properties) shows wrong duration for MPEG2 it shows it as 3 min .. but runs the 30sec same as others, and stops .. not as if there were 2.5min of blank space.

Confirmed MKV does not work with Movie Studio …strange no support for this, but removes it from consideration.

Is there any benefit to either format for Sony Movie Studio use ………… might as well choose the most suitable.
I have seen comments that Movie Studio uses Quicktime, so not sure if that means MJPEG/MOV is a better option ? On flip side also see stated that MJPEG is not a standard while MPEG-2 is a standard, and the resultant quality of MJPEG is still inferior compared to a similar sized MPEG.

A whole world on conundrums for me.



On your suggestion I tried loading both mov files onto Movie Studio timeline … but not sure what you mean by track mute .. assume you mean stop one from showing/playing (as in audio mute) … but unsure how to do that … if you tell me how I’ll try comparison.


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Wayne Waag
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Oct 24, 2015 at 9:05:39 pm

Interestingly (and tried it twice) the files size (windows properties) shows wrong duration for MPEG2 it shows it as 3 min .. but runs the 30sec same as others, and stops .. not as if there were 2.5min of blank space.

I found the same thing when trying the new Version 7. However, Version 5 produces a file with the correct length shown in windows. Go figure.

assume you mean stop one from showing/playing (as in audio mute) … but unsure how to do that

It's just like the audio mute button. It's the same-shaped button on the video track.

If it's between H264/MOV and MPEG-2, I'd stick with MPEG-2 since you probably can't change the bit rate of H264. At least, you know you're getting a good quality render with sufficient bit rate that a re-render inside of Vegas will not lead to a significant loss of quality in your final show.

I really do like Proshow for image animation. However, their export functions have always really been pretty terrible in my opinion. It's been a struggle to find something that works "reliably"--hence, my sticking with V5 and use of MPEG-2.

wwaag


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Rick Hughes
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Oct 25, 2015 at 10:36:14 am

Sorry to come back on this … those nice people at Photodex, just sent me a new license key that enabled the non-licensed codecs for free.
So as well as the options of MPEG2 & MJPEG/MOV
Also now have H264/MP4 which comes with description ” video with HIGH profile for use in external video editors”

The details for the same sample file are:
H264/MP4 118MB encode time 2m 30

Does this change the option .. or is MPEG2 still the best choice.
As you rightly mentioned bit rate I also include media info files for all 3 options.

9375_mjpegmovmediainfo.txt.zip

9376_mpeg2mediainfo.txt.zip

9373_h264mp4mediainfo.txt.zip


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Wayne Waag
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Oct 25, 2015 at 4:37:45 pm

Does this change the option .. or is MPEG2 still the best choice.

Good news that Photodex sent you a different license key. If all three options work equally well in Vegas, it's pretty much up to you. Given those three, I'd still choose MPEG-2 since the renders should be quicker and the playback on the Vegas timeline should be better. Another thing--how well do each of these play back in your media players on your PC fullscreen? It's often good to simply play back your files to evaluate your show before re-rendering them in Vegas. If there are problems, you can then make changes in Proshow and easily re-render. In any case, it sounds as if you're well on your way.

wwaag


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Rick Hughes
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Oct 25, 2015 at 8:13:22 pm
Last Edited By Rick Hughes on Oct 25, 2015 at 9:08:03 pm

The only issue I can see is that MPEG2 is not playable on several players ... (as per previous post)

I have tried them on PC HiRes monitor and on widescreen HDTV ... all 3 look the same (to my eyes)

N.B. I was able to use 'mute' and see difference in the 2 Quicktime variants.


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Wayne Waag
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Oct 25, 2015 at 9:24:18 pm

Just go with what works best for you and have fun. I'm sure your family will enjoy what you've produced.

wwaag


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Rick Hughes
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Oct 25, 2015 at 9:43:59 pm

Your help is most appreciated.


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Wayne Waag
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Oct 25, 2015 at 10:21:00 pm

Glad I could be of help.

wwaag


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Rick Hughes
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Oct 24, 2015 at 11:33:35 am

2 quick questions on this ...

As I will be using Vegas Render for Blu-ray at 1920x1080 50i
In the ProShow settings (as per your screen grab) should I set interlacing to 'none' or should it be interlaced.

Lower down on that same sub-screen it has option 'multplexing' - as I will be creating Blu-ray from Movie studio ... you showed it set to DVD is that still OK ?



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Bob Peterson
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Jul 8, 2015 at 5:27:51 pm

A couple of suggestions.

If you want the best resolution, keep in mind that DVD and Blu-Ray are very different in the resolution that they offer. DVD has a maximum resolution of 720 x 480 while Blu-Ray has a maximum resolution of 1920 x 1080. For the best visual result, you will want to use as much of that resolution as you can to display your images. Thus, you will need to develop two different presentations; one for DVD and a different one for Blu-Ray.

Vegas can render your presentation in many different formats. For example, NTSC or NTSC widescreen. While this offers great flexibility, you will need to pick your format before you begin so that your presentation can make the best use of that format. A major consideration is aspect ratio. Each format has its own aspect ratio which will require you to crop your images to support that aspect ratio. An example is DVD using NTSC. This format has a pixel aspect ratio of .909 while Photoshop works with a pixel aspect ratio of 1. That means that Photoshop will need to deliver an image with a resolution of 655 x 480 rather than 720 x 480. The 655 is calculated as 720 * .909 which is 655. The Photoshop image will fill the screen because its pixels are slightly wider than the pixels in a video image. Similarly, other video output formats will have different aspect ratios which you will need to adjust for when sizing your image. That does not mean that all images MUST be 655 x 480. They can be, for example, 1310 x 960, or other multiples of 655 x 480. The important thing is to retain the ratio between horizontal and vertical.

It can be very frustrating if the image aspect ratio is wrong, because the video output will be letter boxed to make it fit into the available space. I would test your image sizes before getting to far into the project to insure that your aspect ratio is correct, and that the output video is displayed as you expect. For my own work, I use a standard template for cropping in Photoshop, so that I can select the best possible crop which will fit within the required template. I also set up an action in Photoshop which includes all the standard steps I take once the image is cropped. That includes things like setting the targeted resolution, flattening the layers, converting to 8 bit color, and saving as a png in the desired directory. That makes short work of processing the desired images.

My standard is to save at twice the target resolution as a png file. Vegas has always done well with pngs, and the extra resolution allows me to zoom in a bit if I want to. I do all sharpening, resizing, adjusting, etc. for still images in Photoshop. I think Photoshop is much more competent with still images than video software such as Vegas.

Similarly, Vegas's strength is as a video editing tool, and it includes respectable audio editing as well. While other tools may offer advantages in creating a slide show, I suspect they cannot match Vegas when it comes to editing and finishing the final output. I always look at the rendered video output on a targeted display device such as a TV. What I see on the targeted device, may differ in terms of brightness, color, contrast, etc. from what I've seen on the computer. I can adjust for this in Vegas without going back to a slide by slide edit in Photoshop.


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Wayne Waag
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Jul 8, 2015 at 6:02:35 pm

Very well said, Bob. It seems that are our respective workflows are pretty much the same. Photoshop is an amazing tool--the one that I'm willing to part with $10 a month for their latest version on CC. You can also apply most filters to video, but the rendering is very slow.

wwaag


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Bob Peterson
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Jul 8, 2015 at 6:10:48 pm

I, for one, am not willing to part with $10 per month. I am happily ensconced on CS6, and have no plans or needs at the moment for anything else. There are already some respectable competitors popping up, so I will continue to watch those.


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Rick Hughes
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Jul 8, 2015 at 8:30:30 pm
Last Edited By Rick Hughes on Jul 8, 2015 at 8:41:51 pm

Guys ... I dont have Photoshop but do use Lightroom which I find excellent for getting best out of pictures ... does not give masks and all the filters of PS - but I don't need those.

I will be (as per advice above) creating a DVD and a Bluray disc(s)

Both will be for PAL (not NTSC) ... I would hope that if I create a project for Blu-Ray and obviously render as Blu-Ray I can use same project file and also render as using a PAL widescreen DVD template ..... this make sense ?

Failing that I'll create a Blu-Ray disc and then use Blu-Ray to DVD conversion ......... certainly don't want to have to do the multiple projects more than once each (around 800 slides)

Be interested in what size you advise I should save image files as ....... they are at moment 4276 x 2984 tiff files.

The Blu-Ray would be standard 1080p resolution (1920×1080 pixels), at 60 fps.
DVD would be standard 720 x 576 (16:9 PAL) 25 fps


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John Rofrano
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Jul 9, 2015 at 11:27:11 am

[Rick Hughes] "Both will be for PAL (not NTSC) ... I would hope that if I create a project for Blu-Ray and obviously render as Blu-Ray I can use same project file and also render as using a PAL widescreen DVD template ..... this make sense ?"
PAL Widescreen and PAL HD use different aspect ratios. Assuming you set your project for PAL HD you will get black bars on the PAL Widescreen rendering unless you stretch it at render time or crop it at editing time.

I would render to Blu-ray. Then create a PAL Widescreen project and drop the Blu-ray render into that and crop it to PAL Widescreen aspect before rendering to PAL Widescreen. Just open Pan/Crop and right-click the frame and select Match Output Aspect before you render.
[Rick Hughes] "Be interested in what size you advise I should save image files as ....... they are at moment 4276 x 2984 tiff files."
I would make them slightly larger than 1920x1080 so that you can zoom in a bit and still get full quality. HD is 2MP and your 4276 x 2984 images are over 12MP so you have more than 6x the resolution you need. You don't want Vegas Pro resizing this. Get the images down to maybe 1.5x resolution which would be 2880 x 1620 which is almost 5MP and should be plenty of resolution for zooms.

I would also output as PNG or JPG. TIFF files don't perform well in Vegas Pro because, I believe, Vegas uses QuickTime to process them. I use JPG for all of my photo montages and have no problems.
[Rick Hughes] "The Blu-Ray would be standard 1080p resolution (1920×1080 pixels), at 60 fps."
First of all 60fps is not PAL, that's NTSC. I thought you said you were PAL. Did you mean 50p? Also neither of those are valid Blu-ray formats anyway. Blu-ray supports 1080-50i, 1080-60i, 1080-24p or 720-60p. Frankly, 60p for a slide show is a bit ridiculous. You could probably get away with 15fps for a slide show... it's almost like watching paint dry. ;-)

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Rick Hughes
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Jul 9, 2015 at 12:10:43 pm
Last Edited By Rick Hughes on Jul 9, 2015 at 12:11:23 pm

Thanks for the detailed comments I need to give this serious thought. When you say aspect ratio is different I would use 16:9 in both cases.



PAL 16:9 for SD video
Not sure what you mean by different aspect ratio, could you explain further ?

For Blu-ray I was basing it on this standards table:




On the last point maybe my wording confused things.
The Blu-ray standard allows for:
"High-definition video may be stored on Blu-ray Discs with up to 1080p resolution (1920×1080 pixels), at up to 60 (59.94) fields or 60 frames per second."

There is no PAL or NTSC as such
I normally use 1080p 24 fps or 1080p 60fps

I'll stick to 24fps for this as you rightly point out its stills.


If my understanding is wrong please educate me.


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Bob Peterson
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Jul 9, 2015 at 12:45:29 pm

The explanation of all this was what I tried to do in my post. Perhaps read it again, and try to understand what John and I are trying to explain to you? I think it will save you a lot of time and aggravation. I must confess that I do not have, nor have I used Lightroom. Thus, I cannot tell you whether it can do what you want it to do. Perhaps you can try Photoshop Essentials which is a light version of Photoshop.


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Rick Hughes
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Jul 9, 2015 at 1:51:03 pm

Bob ... appreciate the comments you guys have given .... need to try & understand what it means for my project.

Lot of information is on NTSC, I will be using PAL for DVD ... I will follow your comment on 2 x resolution.


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Bob Peterson
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Jul 9, 2015 at 2:24:34 pm
Last Edited By Bob Peterson on Jul 9, 2015 at 2:25:26 pm

PAL for DVD has a resolution of 720 x 576 with a pixel aspect ratio of 1.093. You can find these numbers in Vegas Pro by looking at the Render As screen for your desired format. In the Render As screen, click on customize. The customize screen will tell you the resolution and pixel aspect ratio.


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Rick Hughes
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Jul 9, 2015 at 2:37:01 pm

I don't have Vegas Pro ... I have MSP 12 don't think that makes any difference here.

When I look at PAl widescreen template ... 520 x 756 is there but pixel ratio is 1.457

Is there something I have set wrong ?




I intend producing DVD ( and Blu-ray) for widescreen only


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Bob Peterson
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Jul 9, 2015 at 2:59:08 pm

No, you have the correct number for widescreen. You did not specify widescreen the first time, so I looked at Program Stream Pal.


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John Rofrano
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Jul 9, 2015 at 3:26:14 pm

[Rick Hughes] "Not sure what you mean by different aspect ratio, could you explain further ? "
Yes, 16:9 is a term that's used very "loosely". Look at the first chart that you posted. HD is 16:9 at 1920 x 1080 PAR 1.0. If you divide 1080 by 9 and multiple that result (120) by 16 you get 1920 because 1920 x 1080 is 16:9. PAL widescreen is 720 x 576 PAR 1.4567. A Pixel Aspect Ratio (PAR) of 1.4567 means that PAL Widescreen is not using square pixels like HD does. In order to calculate the "real" dimensions in square pixels you must multiple the width by the PAR. if you multiply 720 x 1.4567 you get 1,048.824 but since you can't have a fractional pixel we around up to 1049. That means that PAL Widescreen is actually 1049 x 576. if you divide 576 by 9 and then multiple the result (64) by16 you get 1024. Since 1024 does not equal 1049 PAL Widescreen is not 16:9! So your PAL Widescreen is going to be wider than your HD Widescreen. Another way to check is to divide the width by the height. 1920 / 1080 = 1.78:1 and 1049 / 576 = 1.82:1 so again, PAL Widescreen has a wider ratio than HD.
[Rick Hughes] ""High-definition video may be stored on Blu-ray Discs with up to 1080p resolution (1920×1080 pixels), at up to 60 (59.94) fields or 60 frames per second.""
That statement is misleading because while resolution can be up to 1080 and frame rate can be up to 60, both are not supported at the same time!. To get 60 fps you must go down to 720 resolution. The chart you posted supports this. Both 59.94p and 50p are only listed under 1280x720.
[Rick Hughes] "There is no PAL or NTSC as such "
There absolutely is! 50i is PAL and 60i is NTSC. This is governed by the respective electrical standards in those countries of 50 cycles and 60 cycles per second respectively. If you are in a PAL country the players usually play NTSC discs but the opposite is not true (i.e., NTSC players will not play PAL discs).

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Rick Hughes
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Jul 9, 2015 at 3:51:18 pm

Thanks for the details ..... interesting your comment on PAL ... over last few days been doing lots of Googling and all I have read state there is no PAL or NTSC (or equivalent) in the in Blu-ray standard.

I have never seen PAL or NTSC on any Blu-ray disc I own, only regional coding ... which is a different thing.
There is the major frame rate difference though, but that is not the same as calling it NTSC or PAL.

I won't argue with you though as I am still learning about Blu-ray creation ...


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John Rofrano
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Jul 10, 2015 at 1:20:58 am

[Rick Hughes] "There is the major frame rate difference though, but that is not the same as calling it NTSC or PAL."
While HD TV did get NTSC and PAL countries to agree on what resolution to use, they still disagree on what frame rate to use so PAL and NTSC still exist in HD and the only difference now is the frame rate.

If you want to reserve the terms NTSC and PAL to refer to SD then that's fine. The fact remains that if you try and play 1080-50i Blu-ray on an HD TV from a country that used NTSC-Analog it won't work. Call it anything you want, Blu-rays at 1080-50i won't play in NTSC Blu-ray players or on NTSC HD TV's.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Rick Hughes
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Jul 10, 2015 at 10:05:50 am

John ... accept what you say ... I'm lucky I'm not in NTSC part of the world, and my player can any Blu-ray.
Could be worse I could be in France and also have to worry about SECAM :-)

I read your reply above about doing the project in Blu-ray and then:

"drop the Blu-ray render into that and crop it to PAL Widescreen aspect before rendering to PAL Widescreen. Just open Pan/Crop and right-click the frame and select Match Output Aspect before you render."

Will that lose me part of the scanned image ?


If so, as the existing Blu-ray project will have all media, transitions etc., is there any other 'global' apply-all or script I could use to change Blu-ray to DVD prior to render as DVD format ?

Alternative once Blu-ray disc in created ... I could use a 'Blu-ray-to-DVD' program would that give me a better result ?


Just looking to maximise the viewers experience, as there is so much effort going into getting the slides into digital..
Never used the Pan/Crop approach you suggest so simply don't know the impact to image.


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Bob Peterson
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Jul 10, 2015 at 12:19:00 pm

You will, in the absence of ultimate serendipity, always lose part of your image unless the image is letter boxed so that you cannot see the details quite as well. It is far better to make an intelligent choice as to what you want to show in the space available, but that will require you to understand that different formats have different spaces. Perhaps it is best for you to let the software fit it in as best it can, and be satisfied with that.


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John Rofrano
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Jul 10, 2015 at 12:58:26 pm

[Rick Hughes] "I'm lucky I'm not in NTSC part of the world, and my player can any Blu-ray."
That's exactly what I was trying to point out. People in PAL countries need to realize that NTSC countries cannot play their content. So NTSC vs PAL is very much alive and well.
[Rick Hughes] "Will that lose me part of the scanned image ? "
Yes. That's what cropping does. If you don't want to loose any of your image then just render to HD and accept the black letterbox bars. It's up to you.
[Rick Hughes] "If so, as the existing Blu-ray project will have all media, transitions etc., is there any other 'global' apply-all or script I could use to change Blu-ray to DVD prior to render as DVD format ?"
I don't see how this s any different that dropping the HD render into a PAL Widescreen project. You will get exactly the same result and your image will be cropped and it will be a lot more work even with scripts to help you.
[Rick Hughes] "Alternative once Blu-ray disc in created ... I could use a 'Blu-ray-to-DVD' program would that give me a better result ?"
Since it would be using the same Blu-ray content it should give you the same result. I guess if you use a program with a better DVD encoder it could give a better result. It depends on the program you use. I'm not sure how it would handle the menus.
[Rick Hughes] "Never used the Pan/Crop approach you suggest so simply don't know the impact to image."
I can tell you the exact impact. You will be cropping 12 pixels from each side of the image to go from 1048 to 1024 so that there are no black bars on the top and bottom. that's a 1% loss. Just doing put anything important in those 12 pixels and you should be fine. ;-)

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Rick Hughes
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Jul 10, 2015 at 1:08:06 pm

Thanks ...think I can cope with 1% :-)


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Wayne Waag
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Jul 10, 2015 at 3:53:36 pm

And don't forget TV overscan which will cost you about 10% on older TV's and 5% on the newer ones. If you're that concerned about showing the entire image, just shrink it so that black bars are showing on all four sides. Some of the older slideshow software programs used to have an option for doing just this.

wwaag


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Rick Hughes
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Jul 10, 2015 at 10:21:48 pm

I'' try some tests on my TV ... thanks didn't realise that


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Rick Hughes
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Jul 19, 2015 at 7:45:44 pm

Having finished all the scanning and adjustment in Lightroom .... thought I'd start off the discs with one which I only need DVD for (no Blu-ray version)

So resized the slides to twice the resolution of DVD in jpeg as advised (1440 x 1152)

Just for some testing dropped some files on timeline .. of a PAL Widescreen project ...
The files have the 1.457 aspect ratio the Videopreview window shows the images with vertical blackbars on left & right ......and if I use 'Render As' Mainconcept PAL DVD widescreen resulting mpg file also has these.

Anything amiss or is that what I should expect (it seems correct to me) ? ......... asking as there were comments that if I get aspect ratio wrong I can get letter box ....


I can improve by zoom in on 'pan + crop' and get image to fit full width - but would lose then top & bottom off image .....can I do that once and have it apply across all slides, or is that something MSP cannot do.

Would 'Ultimate S Lite' be able to do this ?



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Wayne Waag
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Jul 19, 2015 at 7:53:59 pm

[Rick Hughes]

I can improve by zoom in on 'pan + crop' and get image to fit full width - but would lose then top & bottom off image .....can I do that once and have it apply across all slides

Very simple to do in Vegas. Once you're happy with one, just Copy. Then select whatever other slides you want, Right-click and select Paste-Event Attributes. It will apply, the same pan/crop settings and effect settings to those events you've selected.

wwaag


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John Rofrano
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Jul 21, 2015 at 3:45:15 pm

[Rick Hughes] "So resized the slides to twice the resolution of DVD in jpeg as advised (1440 x 1152) ...
The files have the 1.457 aspect ratio the Videopreview window shows the images with vertical blackbars on left & right"
I don't know who advised you but you didn't take the pixel aspect ratio into account so your images are the wrong size. PAL Widescreen is 1049 x 576 in square pixels (720 * 1.457). Twice that would be 2098 x 1152.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Rick Hughes
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Jul 21, 2015 at 4:17:53 pm
Last Edited By Rick Hughes on Jul 21, 2015 at 4:34:37 pm

I used the information in the 2nd post in the thread ... i.e." .. resize your images to roughly twice the vertical resolution of your output. "

PAL widescreen DVD would have vert resolution of 576 twice that = 1152
My original files are 4276 x 2984
If I use a re-sizer and the resize to be 1152 on vertical (option is to be based on one side only)

The output file is 1710 x 1152

The horizontal is not set by me the resize program does it by default, I may be getting this wrong as never had to do resizing to suit project before.





should I be forcing pixel size on both dimensions ? ... i.e :




I didn't go that option as when I did that there was significant shape distortion ... peoples heads went oval for example.
Since my Q above I found that if I dropped in slides using "Insert Slideshow" it takes the N x 1152 images in and correctly sets zoom or at least appears to do so without distortion.

This is a screen grab .. and DVD created seems to be OK.




But if I am not doing the right thing and losing quality now is time to get it right ... as only worked on one pack of slides so far into MSP


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John Rofrano
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Jul 21, 2015 at 4:28:20 pm

OK, if you are using an automatic resize program then you can't get them to match because the original aspect doesn't match and you don't want to stretch your image or blindly crop it. You can crop them in Vegas Pro then to get rid of the black bars. Use the Match Output Aspect option in Pan/Crop and adjust each one to make sure that you don't crop off an important part of the picture.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Rick Hughes
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Jul 21, 2015 at 4:37:11 pm

John .. just before your post above I update my response with the screen grab of what the 'insert slideshow' achieves - seems to do what I need, or am I going wrong still?


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John Rofrano
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Jul 21, 2015 at 4:55:25 pm

Yes, that applied the proper crop. As long as it didn't crop off anyone's head, you are all set.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Rick Hughes
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Oct 22, 2015 at 12:20:04 pm
Last Edited By Rick Hughes on Oct 22, 2015 at 12:26:27 pm

John .... moving on with this ... where is the "Use the Match Output Aspect option"

I tried right-click on the 'pan crop' icon on time line, don't get that option.
I'm using MSP not Vegas Pro .. in case that is relevant.


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Wayne Waag
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Oct 22, 2015 at 3:01:57 pm

Your cursor needs to be somewhere inside the frame on the image itself. Then right-click.

wwaag


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Rick Hughes
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Oct 22, 2015 at 3:32:14 pm

That is what I am doing .... when I right click - this is what I get:



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Wayne Waag
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Oct 22, 2015 at 7:04:15 pm

It would appear that you have placed the cursor over the thumbnail on the timeline, not inside of the VideoEvent Fx window. This is how it should look.

Once you move the cursor inside the window, the cursor arrow will change.



Once you right-click this will appear.



Simply select Match Output Aspect.

wwaag


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Rick Hughes
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Oct 22, 2015 at 7:32:23 pm

Yep ... I was taking care to put cursor on the thumbnail of the picture - my fault.


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Rick Hughes
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Oct 22, 2015 at 7:43:55 pm

Yep ... I was taking care to put cursor on the thumbnail of the picture - my fault.

'Matching output aspect' doesthat mean what you have set in 'Project Properties'

Does it apply to all images on timeline or do I have to select all and 'apply attributes'


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Wayne Waag
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Oct 22, 2015 at 8:07:56 pm

'Matching output aspect' doesthat mean what you have set in 'Project Properties'

Yes.

Does it apply to all images on timeline or do I have to select all and 'apply attributes'

It only applies to the image selected. To apply to all, first apply to first image. Then copy that event (Ctrl-C). Then select the remaining events (images), right-click, and select "Paste Event Attributes". That's it--you're done.

wwaag


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Rick Hughes
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Dec 29, 2015 at 9:12:41 pm

Just to close on this ........ as a couple of points may help another 'beginner' like myself.

There was a lot of discussion that I could not create a DVD disc from a Blu_Ray due to different aspect ratios .. and that I would need to reset pan/crop and re-render.
In practise I did not have to do any of that.


After the Blu_Ray project was sent to DVDA ... and BRD disc created (1920 x 1080)
All I did was go into the DVDA options and go into File>Properties and change disc type to DVD
Then just run make disk wizard again ... and it all worked fine.
No issues at all with Aspect Ration ....... it plays perfectly, no letter boxing or cropping.

Must assume that DVDA is taking care of all that needs to be taken care of ... certainly no need to go back into Vegas and make changes to timeline.

(I did did split the project in DVA as it was too big to fit on a single 8.5GB DVD)


The final sequence used was:
My original scanned stills were adjusted & tweaked in Lightoom and exported at 2 x vert resolution ... so typically 3192 x 2160
They were dropped into PSG and after all transitions etc. ,, created an mpg video output file of 1920x1080
This went into Vegas and once audio & video additions & adjustments gave me an M2V output file of 1920 x 1080
This went into DVDA and that ultimately created a BRD compliant set of files with M2ts video at 1920 x 1080
After creation of BRD
I then went into DVDA changed to DVD and it created VOB MPEG DVD files at 720x576

So project now completed ... and it was done and presented to my parents as a Xmas presents .. they were immensely pleased with results, especially as it spanned 1958-1976 ... both of my parents were able to see their parents on screen for the first time.
As you can imagine many of people in the slides have been dead for many decades - the last time the slides were 'projected' was in mid 70's ........ my parents were very pleased.

Now getting lots of requests or copies from the family :-(


Thanks to all.


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John Rofrano
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Dec 30, 2015 at 3:51:02 pm

You done good Rick. Preserving family memories is a labor of love. I have a bunch of VHS camcorder and DV tapes that I need to capture and get on DVD while the tapes still play and unfortunately, several of the people in them and not with us anymore. Glad to hear your Christmas present was a success.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Wayne Waag
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Dec 30, 2015 at 7:52:07 pm

[Rick]

So glad you finally completed your project and that it was well-received by your family. Comments from loved ones truly make the effort worthwhile. Congrats.

wwaag


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Rick Hughes
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Dec 30, 2015 at 10:51:31 pm

Wayne ... glad you comment prompted me to buy PSG, it really made it so easy, very worthwhile investment.

I also purchased some professional scanning software 'Vuescan' made the use of a Dimage ScanDualIV 35mm slide (and negative) scanner, the manufacturer (Minolta) dropped out of photography business in 2006 ... so no scanner software for W7 (or even W2k.
Vuescan allowed the excellent hardware & optics to continue to be used.

Decided I'm going to digitise a lot of my 'colour' prints from the past ... create a few more Discs


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Rick Hughes
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Dec 30, 2015 at 10:57:13 pm

John .. that was where it started .. I digitized all the VHS tapes earlier in the year, including my own wedding tape ...... amazing how many people in the tapes are no more.
I had SVHS so at least has a reasonable starting point ...... but quality so bad to what you can get off a phone nowadays.

Glad I did the VHS conversion as they would only continue to degrade.

I managed to get some very impressive VHS conversion filters for use with AVIsynth & Virtual Dub ..... did great noise reduction, corrected sync slip etc.
Thousands of line of code written by some very clever people all available for free. :-)

Although AVIsysnth & Virtual dub are not exactly intuitive to use, steep learning curve.


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John Rofrano
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Dec 31, 2015 at 1:12:36 am

[Rick Hughes] "I managed to get some very impressive VHS conversion filters for use with AVIsynth & Virtual Dub ..... did great noise reduction, corrected sync slip etc.Thousands of line of code written by some very clever people all available for free. :-)"
I've played with VirtualDub a bit many years ago and I remember them having some filters specific to VHS. Which ones did you use that worked the best?

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Rick Hughes
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Dec 31, 2015 at 1:16:53 pm

John ... I'll pull a post together and post it later today as a new thread .. I'll use title "VHS digitization and clean up" so you can see when it lands.


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John Rofrano
Re: Advice on committing 35mm slides to DVD
on Dec 31, 2015 at 4:10:50 pm

Great! Thanks!!!

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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