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Danny Hays
1080p 60 fps video
on Jul 3, 2015 at 3:01:39 am

I researched 1080p 60 video on this forum a few years ago. Interested to hear what people think about it now.
Here's a great Panasonic TM700 made clip to experiment on with the stabilize feature. I just tried it in Vegas 10 with all the settings maxed since the video is so shaky. it worked fantastic.
https://vimeo.com/132495116
Here's another clip to see the quality of the Panasonic TM700 camera.
https://vimeo.com/132493884
Both of the clips are 1080p 60 fps .mts files so let Vegas match the Project properties match the media.

Also these are on Vimeo. To be able to download the original file, you have to be logged on to Vimeo. If you aren't a member, it only takes a minute to sign up. Once you're logged in, the download button lets us download the original file I uploaded. And if you have a free Vimeo account like me, the original only stays available for a week, so if you try to download this more than a week from this post, you can't get the original. Only 720 30 fps.
Alot of people don't see a need for 1080p 60 fps video. I for one can't stand interlaced video. These videos give me 60 perfect pictures per second to save as pics, which I use Vegas for alot. Once you have one in Vegas with matched project properties, zoom in on the event timeline until the left and right keys will increment a frame at a time. Make sure your preview is set to best full. Notice the quality of each frame. Then try the same thing with a 1080i 29.97 file and see the difference.
Neither of these videos have a fast enough movement to really show how good slowing down the video to half speed and see the buttery smooth look with the 60 fps clips. Opinions are definitely welcome. Danny Hays



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John Rofrano
Re: 1080p 60 fps video
on Jul 3, 2015 at 3:20:55 pm

You're comparing progressive to interlaced. That has little to do with 60fps vs 30fps. I feel that 60fps is a total waste on objects that don't require that speed. If you were recording a car race I'd agree that 60fps is best for the task, but to waste it on a tiger that's not moving is just a waste of disk space to hold the extra frames and cpu to process them. Totally unneeded. IMHO, shooting 30p would have been a better choice if all you wanted was progressive video.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Bob Peterson
Re: 1080p 60 fps video
on Jul 3, 2015 at 3:59:16 pm

I had forgotten that I was shooting 60p on my Canon HFG30, until yesterday when I was trying to answer another question. Interestingly, I always shoot with a second camera which is a Canon XH-A1. Both shoot in HD, but the XH-A1 shoots 60i. I was also surprised that the file sizes produced by the two cameras is not much different. Both cameras produce an AVCHD file, but with an .mts extension for the G30 and an .m2t extension for the XH. Vegas doesn't seem to notice much difference in the video, but the video from the HFG30 definitely looks better. That is partly due to things like auto focus which includes face detection, and, I am sure, other technical improvements in the newer camera.


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John Rofrano
Re: 1080p 60 fps video
on Jul 3, 2015 at 5:38:31 pm

[Bob Peterson] "I was also surprised that the file sizes produced by the two cameras is not much different. "
That shouldn't be a surprise because file size is controlled by bit rate not frame rate. So whether you have 1 frame per second or 1000 frames per second, the same bit rate will yield the same file size which means that frames at 60fps have less bits to represent them than frames at 30fps at the same bit rate.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Bob Peterson
Re: 1080p 60 fps video
on Jul 3, 2015 at 10:31:49 pm
Last Edited By Bob Peterson on Jul 3, 2015 at 11:01:58 pm

When I said that, I was thinking of the statement that you made in this thread, which sounded quite reasonable by the way, that 60fps is a total waste of disk space when 30fps will do just as well. While I understand that bit rates can change things, perhaps you misspoke a bit about 60fps consuming a lot more space than 30fps? Perhaps it should have been qualified by; all other things remaining equal. As I thought about it, I thought perhaps the 60i for the one camera consumes just about as much space as 60p for the other camera. As it is, the Canon shows that 60fps will be recorded at 28mbps while 30fps will be recorded at 24mbps if the maximum bit rate for 30fps is used. Again, not a lot of difference. I am still struggling to deepen my understanding of this camera, and I think that is a good thing.


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John Rofrano
Re: 1080p 60 fps video
on Jul 4, 2015 at 1:08:25 am

[Bob Peterson] " While I understand that bit rates can change things, perhaps you misspoke a bit about 60fps consuming a lot more space than 30fps? Perhaps it should have been qualified by; all other things remaining equal"
Yes, a qualification might have helped. 60p formats usually use a higher bit-rate to compensate for the fact that you have to store twice as many frames. If they don't then there is no waste of disk space but there is a waste of bits because you would have had more bits to make the 30p look better at the same bit-rate. Good that you pointed that out but whether a waste of disk space by increasing the bit rate, or a waste of bits by increasing the frame rate, using 60p where it's not needed is still a waste, IMHO.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Bob Peterson
Re: 1080p 60 fps video
on Jul 4, 2015 at 2:51:13 am

Actually, I am thinking that a high bit rate is available for use with the 30p to increase its quality above and beyond the 60p image. There are substantially lower bit rates available for the 30p, but there is only one bit rate for the 60p. I'm thinking of dropping my frame rate down to get the highest quality 30p image since it may exceed the quality of the 60p. So....I'm thinking that Canon is not wasting space at all. Canon may see the 60p as an action shot that, ironically, does not require as much clarity as other types of shots.


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Danny Hays
Re: 1080p 60 fps video
on Jul 4, 2015 at 9:35:25 pm

{John Rofrono} using 60p where it's not needed is still a waste, IMHO.

I agree with you one this. Especially when both videos had no fast moving parts. I didn't shoot those. I downloaded them to see what they looked like and how they worked in Vegas before I bought the TM700s.
I have only had about four video cameras other than a gopro, and none had the ability to shoot 30p. All but three of my seven computers are I7s and can edit 1080 60p with ease. And as far as wasting hard drive space, I have a few USB 3 WD passports that are two terabytes and each costed under one hundred dollars. So I don't see why HD space or cpu usage is a problem anymore. But if I want buttery smooth video, or the ability to slow it down to half speed and still see 30 fPS, 1080 60p is the way to go.
When I watch sports on a big TV, I can definetly see space between each frame, like a golf swing, gymnastics, ect. If I capture video like that at 60 fps, The difference is like night and day from 30p. Maybe it because I'm used to seeing 60p video.
Although I don't work at Universal Orlando Resort anymore, Other than the que line video, all the video in Harry Potters Forbidin Journey, Diagon Ally Transformers and some in several other venues are 60p. Most are even 4K 60p, 3D. So you may not see a need for it but many high end video editors use it alot. Even consumer video people want it, for example the latest gopro hero4 black says it shoots at 1080p 120 fps but it's really 720p 120 fps. Gopro forums show that feature is the reason why most people bought the camera. Maybe Gopro will get it right with a new firmware update soon. By the way, YouTube will play 1080 60p now.
I checked out your website and youTube channel. Very impressive. But at least one of your video tutorials has interlacing. The Chromakey and Matte using Boris effects tutorial shows it in the Soccer ball section and you even commented on it. Still your video tutorials are fantastic. You're very good at describing how and why you do what your doing in them. I have watched alot of your tutorials in the past and still do, since I found your YouTube Channel. It seems we have playing music in the past in common. Check out "All I wanted was you, Love of yesterday", both from over thirty years ago and "The Hayz" 11 years ago, on my channel.
https://www.youtube.com/user/ErnestDaniels/videos



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John Rofrano
Re: 1080p 60 fps video
on Jul 5, 2015 at 3:15:04 pm

[Danny Hays] "And as far as wasting hard drive space, I have a few USB 3 WD passports that are two terabytes and each costed under one hundred dollars. So I don't see why HD space or cpu usage is a problem anymore."
Don't forget the space on the camera card. I agree computer hard drive space is not an issue but if you are using a higher bit rate to record a higher frame rate you may be diminishing your recording time for no good reason.

I also read a LOT of posts where people can't get smooth timeline playback only to find out they a using 60p to record a wedding ceremony where people are barely moving and their CPU can't keep up with the 60fps playback. So if you are lucky enough to have a computer that gives you no problems shooting 60p I guess you can use it all the time whether you need it or not.
[Danny Hays] "When I watch sports on a big TV, I can definetly see space between each frame, like a golf swing, gymnastics, ect. If I capture video like that at 60 fps, The difference is like night and day from 30p. Maybe it because I'm used to seeing 60p video."
Agreed. That's a great use of 60p. I'm not saying 60p is not needed. I'm just saying it seems to be overused. Sports is a great example where it's needed.
[Danny Hays] "I checked out your website and youTube channel. Very impressive. But at least one of your video tutorials has interlacing."
That's because of the incompetent job Digital Juice did on their stock footage. Someone botched it up before I bought it and there was nothing I could do about it. Horrible quality! Needless to say I don't buy stock footage from Digital Juice anymore.
[Danny Hays] "Still your video tutorials are fantastic. You're very good at describing how and why you do what your doing in them. I have watched alot of your tutorials in the past and still do, since I found your YouTube Channel."
Thanks for the kind words but this is a good example. None of my tutorials require 60p! All you're doing is watching me move a mouse around the screen. In fact, some of the earliest ones were recorded in 15p!!! I'm a big believer in using the right tool for the job and screen capture tutorials are a good example of NOT needing to be in 60p. ;-)
[Danny Hays] "It seems we have playing music in the past in common. Check out "All I wanted was you, Love of yesterday", both from over thirty years ago and "The Hayz" 11 years ago, on my channel. "
Yes, we have that in common and I'll check them out.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Wayne Waag
Re: 1080p 60 fps video
on Jul 5, 2015 at 8:33:54 pm

Being just a hobbyist, shooting 30P is a moot point since my camcorders only shoot 60i, 60P or 24P. Having said that, I bought into the same arguments for using 30P by the "professional" videographers I hired for my daughter's wedding. Later, I regretted not insisting on having them film in 60P. There occurred a number of spontaneous events throughout the day that, although captured, looked pretty terrible because of the jerkiness due to the lower frame rate. At least, they didn't film at 24P. So unless you're filming mountains, turtles, Waiting for Godot, or something that is completely scripted, it seems better to err on the side of safety for recording those unexpected events involving high rates of motions. Plus, as the OP mentioned, you can get a nice slow-motion effect. Just a contrarian point of view.

wwaag


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Danny Hays
Re: 1080p 60 fps video
on Jul 5, 2015 at 10:23:04 pm

[Wayne Waag] shooting 30P is a moot point since my camcorders only shoot 60i, 60P or 24P.

I don't understand why cameras that shoot in 60p, don't have a setting for 30p. I would shoot in that format as well sometimes but as I stated in my earlier post, none of mine shoot in 30p either. for that reason, I always shoot in 60p, and zoom out a little in case it needs stabilizing that could crop out important subjects near the edge of the shot.

At first, playing it back to the masses was a big problem, but that has changed now. As well as YouTube supporting it now, some Bluray players do too. Check out this post, and it's even from a few years ago.

" 60p video is nice, but only that shot in 1280x720 resolution can be shared via Blu-ray at this point in time. Claims that such-and-such a machine will play 1080p discs usually mean 24p or involve some sort of typo, omission, or misconception. Most extant software to make 1080 60p video compatible with disc involves some sort of conversion. If anyone knows of a 1080p60 BD player, please indicate the make and model number. "

You are not keeping up, as everything you said is no longer true:

1. A new firmware upgrade to all Sony Sx80 bluray players allows them to play 108060p blu ray videos. This is the new AVCHD 2.0 standard.

2. A new upgrade to Picture Motion Browser software, that comes free with all Sony cameras and camcorders, permits the writing of 108060p AVCHD 2.0-compliant blurays without conversion if the source is 108060p. These blurays play in 108060p on the above Sony bluray players, and it is said on new Panasonic bluray players.



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John Rofrano
Re: 1080p 60 fps video
on Jul 6, 2015 at 12:18:33 am

[Wayne Waag] "Having said that, I bought into the same arguments for using 30P by the "professional" videographers I hired for my daughter's wedding. Later, I regretted not insisting on having them film in 60P"
This is why I shoot 60i. It gives better temporal resolution and is compatible with 100% of playback devices. 30p does have a different look than either 60i or 60p but some people like it because it isn't as jerky as 24p but still has a similar cadence.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Wayne Waag
Re: 1080p 60 fps video
on Jul 6, 2015 at 2:51:12 am

[John Rofrano] This is why I shoot 60i. It gives better temporal resolution and is compatible with 100% of playback devices

So why NOT 60P? Maybe I'm missing something, but it would seem to provide even more options. For those who want a shiny disc, render at 60i to Blu-Ray. For those who want the cadence of 30P, just disable resample and render to 1080 30P. And more importantly, for those who want the best quality (at least, IMHO), render at 1080 60P. For the things that I've filmed over the last few years, I've always rendered to 1080 60P. I can either stream or use USB storage with my 2 year old Sony blu-ray player which plays the material flawlessly--even within an MKV container because I like chapter support. Another advantage is that if you want to put the material online with YT or Vimeo, you avoid deinterlacing, which is never perfect. Seems to me, at least, there are a lot of advantages of 1080 60P that far outweigh the negatives--at least, for this hobbyist.

wwaag


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Danny Hays
Re: 1080p 60 fps video
on Jul 6, 2015 at 3:59:32 am

[Wayne Waag] I can either stream or use USB storage with my 2 year old Sony blu-ray player which plays the material flawlessly-

You sparked my interested. What do you use to stream it to your HD TV? I have a Chromecast, but I need an internet connection for it to work. At least to get it started. The last update for it allows for local cast and that works from my phones but with my laptops, I had to drag it onto a Chrome browser for it to work. I could then disconnect my internet and it would still play but not at 1080 60p. And once in a while I had to reconnect the internet to get it working.



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Wayne Waag
Re: 1080p 60 fps video
on Jul 6, 2015 at 4:21:47 am

[Danny Hays]
What do you use to stream it to your HD TV?

Perhaps I used the wrong terminology. What I do is simply use a media server (Twonky rather than WMP) to stream files from my PC to the Blu-ray player. Nothing is uploaded.

wwaag


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John Rofrano
Re: 1080p 60 fps video
on Jul 6, 2015 at 11:10:28 am

[Wayne Waag] "So why NOT 60P?"
Because most of my delivery is 60i so I don't see the need. It works for me... i realize it might not work for you. ;-)

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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John Hughes
Re: 1080p 60 fps video
on May 20, 2016 at 7:58:47 pm

John,

Always a pleasure to hear from you.

[That shouldn't be a surprise because file size is controlled by bit rate not frame rate. So whether you have 1 frame per second or 1000 frames per second, the same bit rate will yield the same file size which means that frames at 60fps have less bits to represent them than frames at 30fps at the same bit rate.]

So given your explanation above, video shot at 24fps progressive at 50Mbps like my camera captures would be better quality (relatively) than 60fps progressive at the same bitrate - since more bits are being represented in each of the 24 frames? Is it then just a matter of choosing a higher frame rate if you don't want the 'juddery' look of 24fps (for like say fast-action sports), that you would be making a sacrifice on a little quality? A trade-off so to speak with smoother movement but less overall visual quality?


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John Rofrano
Re: 1080p 60 fps video
on May 21, 2016 at 2:37:45 pm

[John Hughes] "So given your explanation above, video shot at 24fps progressive at 50Mbps like my camera captures would be better quality (relatively) than 60fps progressive at the same bitrate - since more bits are being represented in each of the 24 frames?"
Yes, that is correct. There would be a huge difference between 24p and 60p at the same bit rate because you have over twice as many bits available to encode each frame.
[John Hughes] "Is it then just a matter of choosing a higher frame rate if you don't want the 'juddery' look of 24fps (for like say fast-action sports), that you would be making a sacrifice on a little quality? A trade-off so to speak with smoother movement but less overall visual quality?"
Yes, but you don't need to deliver 60p to get away with the jittery look of 24p. 30p is still a nice compromise.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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