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That crazy should I rebuild or not question, but I'm stuck.

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Steven Davis
That crazy should I rebuild or not question, but I'm stuck.
on Jun 27, 2015 at 5:39:12 pm

I'm having a lot of problems with slow render speeds involving my MXF files that are from my year old Canon XF 300s. I'm currently working on a project that is a 3:30 minute nested file that I'm rendering to a mp4 at 6mbps that is taking me almost 45 minutes to render. It's a very simple two clip project. I routinely have problems with very slow renders with my MXF files. I'm assuming Vegas has a very hard time with my MXF files from my Canon XF300s. This machine is four years old unfortunately, and I don't know if I should rebuild my machine or go full blown Mac with FCPX.

There is a lot of discussion about slow vegas renders on the internet and I've read just about every one. I've been with Vegas before Sony bought it, but in my professional business, these renders will really hurt my business productivity.

Someone suggested that my bottleneck might be my GPU, but I don't think Sony Vegas 10 uses GPU. I did download Vegas 13 and didn't see any difference but it was just a quick test without tweaking the Vegas properties.

My specs are i7 CPU 950 @ 3.07ghz
12 gb of ram
and my video card is a GeForce GTX 460.


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John Rofrano
Re: That crazy should I rebuild or not question, but I'm stuck.
on Jun 27, 2015 at 8:53:39 pm

[Steven Davis] "My specs are i7 CPU 950 @ 3.07ghz"
That's a very old processor that came out in 2009 which was 6 years ago! You would definitely benefit from getting a modern CPU like a Core i7-5930K. If you are using a lot of FX then a new GPU based on the AMD Radeon chipset would be a good replacement for your 2010 GTX 460. Something like the AMD Radeon R9 295x.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Steven Davis
Re: That crazy should I rebuild or not question, but I'm stuck.
on Jun 28, 2015 at 12:23:40 am

So does Vegas 10 take advantage of GPU processing or will I have to go up to 13. Thanks by the way for the spec help, trying to not waste money on a build.


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John Rofrano
Re: That crazy should I rebuild or not question, but I'm stuck.
on Jun 28, 2015 at 1:33:49 am

[Steven Davis] "So does Vegas 10 take advantage of GPU processing or will I have to go up to 13."
Oh that's right you did say that you were using Vegas Pro 10. Sorry... No, Vegas Pro 10 does not have GPU acceleration. That was added in Vegas Pro 11.0. Vegas Pro 10 does have GPU rendering where just the encoder is GPU enabled. This only works with older cards like yours.

So did this problem just start happening? Because you are using a 4 year old PC with a 4 year old Camera and 4 year old software so logically, everything should be just as fast as it was 4 years ago? It's not like you just bought a new camera and now everything is slow... what changed?
[Steven Davis] "I don't know if I should rebuild my machine or go full blown Mac with FCPX."
That is also an option. You don't have to buy new. I bought a 2010 Mac Pro 12-core, with 24GB memory, an AMD Radeon HD 5870 and a 6TB RAID array on eBay for $2275. Prior to that I picked up a 2008 Mac Pro 8-Core with 16GB memory, and an AMD Radeon HD 5870 for only $745! That 2008 Mac Pro is still going strong (talk about an old computer but it's working great with FCP X). There are some great deals on used Mac's now that the new Mac Pro came out.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Steven Davis
Re: That crazy should I rebuild or not question, but I'm stuck.
on Jun 28, 2015 at 1:45:42 am

I started running into slow renders when I bought my Canon XF300s a year and half ago, I shoot at the highest setting, 50 mbs and immediately noticed slow renders, especially with any correction. An hour ceremony was taking me 10 hours to render almost any HD format. Prior to my canons, I had Sony V1us, which were not as intensive on the machine.

As for the mac, I had planned to phase out of Vegas and go FCPX full on, then I ran into a pretty nasty metadata problem and have been talking with Apple for the past month trying to work around the 'camera name' glitch in fcpx's multicam.

Which leads me to a decision, rebuilding my pc since Vegas doesn't have issues with my MXF files, except for the really slow renders.


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John Rofrano
Re: That crazy should I rebuild or not question, but I'm stuck.
on Jun 28, 2015 at 1:54:09 am

Ah, OK so the Canon XF300 was always slow. You could always run Vegas Pro on your Mac using Bootcamp. That's what I do. If you are interested in using FCP X then don't waste a penny on a new PC. Get a better Mac and run both Vegas Po and FCP X on it and have the best of both worlds! You can't do that with a PC. ;-)

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Aaron Star
Re: That crazy should I rebuild or not question, but I'm stuck.
on Jun 28, 2015 at 6:04:57 am

You know if you want to create 15 sec test project, I will post some render times from my system.

Use a 15 camera start stop clip, and apply the project settings, and plugins you use.

Screen shot your project settings, and render as profile.

Then upload project file and assets to gdrive.

Our systems are close in specs, but mine stable and GPU enabled, and Vegas 13.


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Graham Bernard
Re: That crazy should I rebuild or not question, but I'm stuck.
on Jun 28, 2015 at 8:39:55 am

Canon XF300 here: I just ran a Canon XF300, highest bitrate, partial 2 section video wall, through Vegas2Hanbrake for an MP4 Highest Quality Output and the 4min 30 sec selection in Vegas Pro 13 renders out in 5mins and 32seconds. Maybe it is the Vegas Pro MP4 Renderer taking time, and laying-off to an external renderer removes the VP pressure on my system? Anyway, 4:30 taking 5:30 to MP4 highest Handbrake quality works for me.

Grazie

Video Content Creator and Potter
PC 7 64-bit 16gb * Intel® Core™i7-2600k Quad Core 3.40GHz * 2GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 560 Ti
Cameras: Canon XF300 + PowerShot SX50HS Bridge


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John Rofrano
Re: That crazy should I rebuild or not question, but I'm stuck.
on Jun 28, 2015 at 1:00:10 pm

[Aaron Star] "Use a 15 camera start stop clip, and apply the project settings, and plugins you use."
I would be happy to test this as well. You should use a 15 second clip copied 3 more times to make the total project 1 minute in length. Use whatever plug-ins you normally use so that it's a real-world example. Then we can compare how many minutes it takes to render a 1 minute project. You can use DropBox to send us a link to the files.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Steven Davis
Re: That crazy should I rebuild or not question, but I'm stuck.
on Jun 28, 2015 at 3:39:30 pm

I did put this together on Newegg, I'd love to get a macpro this year, but not with my projected budget. All for 1200.00 which leaves me 3 for Vegas 13.

1
IN WIN GR one Black Black Computer Case
Item #:N82E16811108127
$159.99
$109.99



1
ASUS Radeon R9 290X R9290X-DC2-4GD5 Video Card
Item #:N82E16814121922
$389.99
$299.99



1
COOLER MASTER RR-212E-20PK-R2 120mm Sleeve CPU Cooler
Item #:N82E16835103099
$34.99



1
G.SKILL Ripjaws 4 series 32GB (4 x 8GB) 288-Pin DDR4 SDRAM DDR4 2800 (PC4-22400) Extreme Performance Memory Kit Model F4-2800C16Q-32GRK
Item #:N82E16820231824
$329.99
$289.99



1
Rosewill ARC M550 Continuous 550W@40 C degree Power Supply
Item #:N82E16817182298
$69.99
$59.99



1
ASUS X99-A/USB 3.1 ATX Intel Motherboard
Item #: N82E16813132516


Intel Core i7-5820K 3.3GHz LGA 2011-v3 BX80648I75820K Desktop Processor
Item #: N82E16819117402
-$30.00 Instant
-$25.00 Combo $669.98
$614.98


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John Rofrano
Re: That crazy should I rebuild or not question, but I'm stuck.
on Jun 28, 2015 at 6:31:36 pm

[Steven Davis] "I did put this together on Newegg,"
Did you check to make sure that the memory has been tested with the motherboard? Just matching specs is playing Russian roulette. I would go to the motherboard web site and get the list of memory part numbers that were tested with that motherboard and only buy those part numbers of you want to guarantee a stable computer.
[Steven Davis] "Rosewill ARC M550 Continuous 550W@40 C degree Power Supply"
The ASUS Radeon R9 290X requires a minimum of a 750W PSU so that power supply is not going to cut it.

I would also go for a liquid cooler because rendering video is going light up that CPU.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Scott Francis
Re: That crazy should I rebuild or not question, but I'm stuck.
on Jun 29, 2015 at 6:10:13 am

I would go with a MINIMUM 750 watt PSU. You will need the headroom once everything is cooking. I have seen much higher performance in playback and rendering with the 290 series. So you should have good luck.

Xavier (Scott) Francis
Mind's Eye Audio/Video Productions


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Steven Davis
Re: That crazy should I rebuild or not question, but I'm stuck.
on Jun 28, 2015 at 3:51:21 pm

Here is a link to an mxf file. I rendered it Internet 1080p with Sony Vegas 13, and it took more than a minute to render 19 secs. I added some screen shots. I think you are right John, my machine might just not be up the snuff.


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Steven Davis
Re: That crazy should I rebuild or not question, but I'm stuck.
on Jun 28, 2015 at 3:55:41 pm

Forgot the link.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/w2p5byjg6z69gaj/AAA5QLuSLEuFqbijGOylFefWa?dl=0


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Aaron Star
Re: That crazy should I rebuild or not question, but I'm stuck.
on Jun 28, 2015 at 9:06:34 pm

Converting the C300.mfx to Sony XDCAM-422.mfx was "no recompression" conversion. The XDCAM422 converted file showed identical time as the stock C300 file. Canon codec is simply a licensed xdcam codec with the rights to put their own label on it.


For the file that was uploaded, with no effects, here are my results:

16sec--XDCAM422-to-30p-10mbsMax-6mbAvg-MC-mp


16sec-c300-to-30p-10mbsMax-6mbAvg-MC-mp4


24sec-C300-to-30p-MC.MP4--10mbsMax--6mbsAvg--32bit-VL


35sec--XDCAM422-to-30p-16mbs-SonyAVC


35sec-C300-60i-16mbs-Vegas-Preset-SonyAVC


38sec-HDCAM-SR-Lite-to-30p-16mbs-SonyAVC


39sec-C300-to-30p-16mbs-SonyAVC--32bit-VL - you can see that as the math complexity goes up, the GPU is utilized more in 32bit mode with Sony AVC


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Steven Davis
Re: That crazy should I rebuild or not question, but I'm stuck.
on Jun 28, 2015 at 10:55:10 pm

Well that confirms it, seems the system is aged too much. And thanks everyone for the heads up on the build, I haven't ordered it yet, so I'll up the specs on the ps and cooling. I've never build a water cooled machine, so that'll be a bit of curve.

Thanks for running the tests, that was very helpful.


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John Rofrano
Re: That crazy should I rebuild or not question, but I'm stuck.
on Jun 29, 2015 at 11:31:30 am

[Steven Davis] "I've never build a water cooled machine, so that'll be a bit of curve. "
You need to have a case that can support it but I used a CORSAIR H100 Extreme Performance Liquid CPU Cooler which required a Corsair Carbide Series 500R Black case but the H80 fits in almost any case I believe. One thing you don't want to mess up on is adequate cooling for long renders. The liquid coolers are all self contained these days. They are as easy as installing a regular heat sink. You just need to have room for the radiator and fan in your case.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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John Rofrano
Re: That crazy should I rebuild or not question, but I'm stuck.
on Jun 28, 2015 at 8:59:19 pm

[Steven Davis] "Here is a link to an mxf file."
Is this file directly from your camera or did you render it out of Vegas Pro? We should be testing with a file directly from your camera.

Also, what exactly are we testing here? I downloaded the file and it plays back at full frame rate on Best | Full with Vegas Pro running in VMware Fusion on my MacBook Pro with no GPU acceleration. Does it playback fine for you? Did you want to give us a project that uses this file with typical FX that you would use and see if it plays back smoothly? and what about a render test. What format do you want us to render to?

I'm just looking for something that you did and how long it took and then we can do the same and tell you how long it takes for us.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Steven Davis
Re: That crazy should I rebuild or not question, but I'm stuck.
on Jun 29, 2015 at 1:29:28 am

Hey John,

That is an mxf clip strait from the camera. Which is what I'm having a problem with rendering. Playback is pretty decent, but when I go to render an HD file such as an mp4, that's where things slow down.


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Graham Bernard
Re: That crazy should I rebuild or not question, but I'm stuck.
on Jun 29, 2015 at 3:23:09 am

Steve, is your camera a XF300? I see a reference to CF300? However in your opening post you say XF300s? I've not seen a XF300s. What is the "s"? Has the XMF footage been processed by the Canon Utility or had you removed/copied the XMF Media from the complex Canon Capture folder structure?

I use my MXF files via/from the Canon Utility that gives all XMF files ready to go. Do you?

Grazie

Video Content Creator and Potter
PC 7 64-bit 16gb * Intel® Core™i7-2600k Quad Core 3.40GHz * 2GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 560 Ti
Cameras: Canon XF300 + PowerShot SX50HS Bridge


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Steven Davis
Re: That crazy should I rebuild or not question, but I'm stuck.
on Jun 29, 2015 at 1:45:50 pm

Sorry Graham,

My brain was fried, yes, I'm talking about my Canon XF 300s. The native mxf files from the camera.


Thanks for all the advice guys. Very helpful. Time to spend some money on a machine.


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Graham Bernard
Re: That crazy should I rebuild or not question, but I'm stuck.
on Jun 29, 2015 at 1:59:01 pm

What is a Canon XF300 "s"? What's the "s"? How had you got the XMF Filed?

Grazie

Video Content Creator and Potter
PC 7 64-bit 16gb * Intel® Core™i7-2600k Quad Core 3.40GHz * 2GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 560 Ti
Cameras: Canon XF300 + PowerShot SX50HS Bridge


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John Rofrano
Re: That crazy should I rebuild or not question, but I'm stuck.
on Jun 29, 2015 at 11:37:42 am

[Steven Davis] "That is an mxf clip strait from the camera. Which is what I'm having a problem with rendering."
OK, because I also loaded it into Final Cut Pro X and then I went into the metadata all of the camera information was blank. BTW, when people come here and complain that they can't edit the native format from their camera, we tell them to render to Sony MXF because it handles like butter in Vegas Pro. So people are actually converting their camera footage into this format because it performs so well in Vegas. If your computer can't handle it, it is definitely time for a new computer.
[Steven Davis] "Playback is pretty decent, but when I go to render an HD file such as an mp4, that's where things slow down."
So you are having problems rendering just the RAW file with no FX? That's not good. I thought you only had problems after adding color correcting and stuff.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Steven Davis
Re: That crazy should I rebuild or not question, but I'm stuck.
on Jun 29, 2015 at 4:00:40 pm

Thanks again for the great help. I pulled the trigger on the machine today. Now I'll just wait for humpty dumpty to come.


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Danny Hays
Re: That crazy should I rebuild or not question, but I'm stuck.
on Jun 29, 2015 at 11:32:25 pm

Actually John, People are doing this on a PC. I have done it on my Mac mini I7 but I haven't tried it on a PC yet. Here's a link explaining how to do it on a PC.

http://www.tonymacx86.com/multi-booting/89759-beginners-guide-dual-boot-win...



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John Rofrano
Re: That crazy should I rebuild or not question, but I'm stuck.
on Jun 30, 2015 at 1:50:16 pm

[Danny Hays] "Actually John, People are doing this on a PC"
Yes, I appreciate that but not "legally", and not without a lot of problems. I've built a Hackintosh so I know first hand the level of difficulty in getting it to work and how unstable it can be. This is NOT the same as buying Mac. There is no PC hardware that's as good as the Mac track pad. It just doesn't exist. So yes, you can hack OS X and remove it's security settings and get it to run on PC hardware... and be careful that Apple updates don't undo your hack, but that doesn't make it a Mac or anything like the Mac experience of hardware and software working together. It's an interesting project though... just not anything I would bet my business on ;-)

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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