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SonicR360 YouTube
Rendered Blur in video in video with SVP 13 (Picture in Picture)
on Jun 10, 2015 at 5:07:58 am

Hi everyone
My first post, and I hope you can help.
I have spent alot of money on SVP 13 after months of research finding a good video editing tool, and to be honest it has been going great!

Until about 2 weeks ago.... I started to notice (what I thought at the time) was an internet lagging issue. It turns out it is a possible rendering issue.

Setup:
SVP 13 - Used an application called "FRAPS" to capture COD gameplay on PC. In turn, I have the Logitech C920 Webcam recording the gameplayer / audio.
The Gameplay shows its exported as an .AVI at 60fps and the Webcam is 30fps.

Used Sony Vegas to import all videos / audio files, trim everything up, disable reseample on all videos, and render as 60fps 1080p.
To give you an idea of the problem, see this video where I first found the problem:






If you goto around 12:00 minutes, and see the action taking place on the screen, you see me getting blurry! Or out of focus I guess.

I render using CUDA as well, but using just CPU, same results.
I am hoping someone could possibly advise on this.
By no means am I an expert in SVP, but I am very comfortable with the tool, and it has been used for all my videos, including XBOX which have been fine!
Thanks very much for any input or advice.
Be gentle :(
Simon


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Steve Rhoden
Re: Rendered Blur in video in video with SVP 13 (Picture in Picture)
on Jun 10, 2015 at 1:12:16 pm

"FRAPS"....There is your problem.

Steve Rhoden (Cow Leader)
Film Maker & VFX Artist.
Owner of Filmex Creative Media.
Samples of my Work and Company can be seen here:
http://www.facebook.com/FilmexCreativeMedia


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Simon Weaver
Re: Rendered Blur in video in video with SVP 13 (Picture in Picture)
on Jun 10, 2015 at 2:11:50 pm
Last Edited By Simon Weaver on Jun 10, 2015 at 4:29:35 pm

Hi Steve
Unfortunately, that is all I have.
Could there be anything else I could check in SVP?

I have done a 2 min video at 29.97 (30FPS) and within the "Preview" of SV Pro, it looks perfect.

But Rendering at 30FPS it just looks the same .... in other words I have the same issue at 60FPS and 30FPS.


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Simon Weaver
Re: Rendered Blur in video in video with SVP 13 (Picture in Picture)
on Jun 10, 2015 at 7:27:13 pm

Right just an update..... I tried a completely different software capturing product and everything is clean and clear.
Yet... when I render in SVP, the SAME THING happens!

This is not a FRAPS issue surely! 2 different pieces of software.... raw files look great.... render in SVP and its crap!

Could someone please offer some advice or guidance?
As mentioned above, please view the youtube video to get an idea of the problem... the issue happens when there is a lot of action on screen.... yet when viewing the raw file without rendering on SVP, its 100% perfect! no flaws! Crystal clear!


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Norman Black
Re: Rendered Blur in video in video with SVP 13 (Picture in Picture)
on Jun 10, 2015 at 7:46:58 pm

I only saw brief periods of you PiP going blurry, so I will speculate what the issue is given you game footage source material.

This lower/blurry quality thing is common with people doing game footage and internet delivery via Youtube/Vimeo. Answered many times here. You have very fast movement with possibly high frequency detail and the bitrate delivery is insufficient to maintain detail at a given level. So when the bitrate becomes insufficient it can briefly go blurry and then recover when the source material calms down enough so that bitrate is not starved.

There is nothing you can do about this as you have no control over the Youtube/Vimeo encodes. It is what it is.

The bottom line is that internet delivery bitrate (which is low) only gives high quality if your source video material can get very good compression.


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Simon Weaver
Re: Rendered Blur in video in video with SVP 13 (Picture in Picture)
on Jun 10, 2015 at 8:45:55 pm

Hello Norman
First, thanks for your reply.
I want to be clear, that when I record the videos (before going through YouTube or Sony Vegas Pro), the quality is 100% perfect.

I have put my video through a program called Adobe Premier and the Adobe renders perfect. The only issue I had was sound, but that is something I could ask my colleague to help with.

I do not own Adobe... but if it works on this product, and renders fine... then it should on SVP ?

Obviously, when the video gets uploaded to YouTube, yes quality is lost, but I am stating that when my videos are rendered with SVP even before going to YouTube, they are fuzzy!

I have also tested my rendering on another PC with SVP installed, and I get the same issue.

If this guy can do it.... why can't I ?






I am gutted as I spent an awful lot of money on this software.
Thank you


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Norman Black
Re: Rendered Blur in video in video with SVP 13 (Picture in Picture)
on Jun 10, 2015 at 8:54:10 pm

Since you are doing a small PiP, then make sure your final render quality setting is set to Best (project properties). Vegas only uses its highest quality interpolator (resizer) in Best. Vegas defaults to Good. The biggest difference between Good and Best is the interpolation algorithm.

Beyond that, I don't know. I've not had a problem, but I have only used something like this once.


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John Rofrano
Re: Rendered Blur in video in video with SVP 13 (Picture in Picture)
on Jun 11, 2015 at 2:48:54 am

[Simon Weaver] "If this guy can do it.... why can't I ?"
Probably because his HD video is 30p and yours is 60p which means at the same bit rate you will have 1/2 the quality that he has.

Seriously, I couldn't even watch your video because all it did was stutter and pause and buffer because my Internet connection could not feed 60 fps. You should consider uploading at 30p and your quality will be better.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Simon Weaver
Re: Rendered Blur in video in video with SVP 13 (Picture in Picture)
on Jun 11, 2015 at 4:18:11 am

Hi John
I have also done 30FPS - So to be honest, the problem is still there.
I am sorry your internet connection is poor.
To clarify again, the problem occurs on the "rendered" video output from Sony Vegas - Nothing to do with YouTube at this stage.

Also, as mentioned in another post - If I preview the video that is ready to be rendered using the SVP Preview window (and I go full screen) it looks fine.

Because someone felt it was FRAPS, I tried a different product.
I can render it fine in ADOBE Premier Pro ..... but not Sony Vegas!

Appreciate feedback about 30FPS - But it does not solve my actual problem.
Also, for the record I created a new project, removed the intro / outro and logo layer.... problem remains.

If you have any helpful information please share.


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John Rofrano
Re: Rendered Blur in video in video with SVP 13 (Picture in Picture)
on Jun 11, 2015 at 11:57:04 am

[Simon Weaver] "To clarify again, the problem occurs on the "rendered" video output from Sony Vegas - Nothing to do with YouTube at this stage."
Ah, OK that wasn't clear. I thought YouTube was causing the problem.

So what are you render settings?

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Simon Weaver
Re: Rendered Blur in video in video with SVP 13 (Picture in Picture)
on Jun 11, 2015 at 12:28:16 pm

It is ok John, not a problem.
The first person to respond said FRAPS was the issue, but I have downloaded another piece of software to capture my PC Screen, but although the .MP4 output from this software is 100% perfect, it seems to be the render that is causing the issue.

I have tried so many settings, that I am now just not sure what to do.

The raw .MP4 file is 1920 x 1080 60FPS.
Within Sony Vegas I have a CUDA Based GPU Template (I have tried CPU rendering, same results).
This is what I have:






Hope this works!


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Mark Barton
Re: Rendered Blur in video in video with SVP 13 (Picture in Picture)
on Jun 11, 2015 at 8:42:21 pm

I would try the higher bitrate. You have it here at 10Mbps for 1080p, try bumping that up to 16Mbps to see if that helps and confirm if the problem really is bitrate.


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Norman Black
Re: Rendered Blur in video in video with SVP 13 (Picture in Picture)
on Jun 11, 2015 at 9:08:33 pm

I agree. 10Mbps is kinda low for a 1080p60 source, with the jerky movements of game footage. That is probably closer to okay for 30p.


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Simon Weaver
Re: Rendered Blur in video in video with SVP 13 (Picture in Picture)
on Jun 12, 2015 at 4:28:32 am

Hi Norman
Thanks for your reply.
I did create a new template. I spent 5 hours testing and playing around with this, but finally came to some bitrate settings that seemed to work, but I am not sure if I have just gone overkill or if this is about right.
Hopefully you see my new template here.



I was unsure about the Maximum and Average Bitrate should be set to ... for example should one be higher and the other lower?


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John Rofrano
Re: Rendered Blur in video in video with SVP 13 (Picture in Picture)
on Jun 12, 2015 at 11:24:40 am

[Simon Weaver] "I was unsure about the Maximum and Average Bitrate should be set to ... for example should one be higher and the other lower?"
Absolutely one should be higher than the other! This is important to understand because you have defeated the purpose of using Variable Bit Rate (VBR). The Average bit rate is the allowable average for the entire video and determines the size of your file. The Maximum bit rate determines how many bits are allowed on any given frame that needs it. This allows frames that need more bits to use them while frames that need less bits don't waste them. The Two Pass option allows the bit distribution to be more accurate. By setting Max and Avg the same you are, in effect, using a Constant Bit Rate (CBR) which is the other option you didn't use. So if you really want 50/50 then use CBR 50,000,000.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Simon Weaver
Re: Rendered Blur in video in video with SVP 13 (Picture in Picture)
on Jun 12, 2015 at 4:29:52 am

Hi Mark
Thanks for the reply.
I ended up at 50,000,000! I was on 20,000,000 but it was not that great.

This is my new render template:


One thing that I am also conscious about, is that my "Picture in Picture" is also probably just too small, so I need to enlarge on this!

Simon


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Norman Black
Re: Rendered Blur in video in video with SVP 13 (Picture in Picture)
on Jun 12, 2015 at 9:00:26 pm

When using Mainconcept variable bitrate you may want to check the two pass option. It will double your render time but it will allow the encoder to better distribute the bitrate across the video. Meaning sections that do not need a lot of bitrate can save more bitrate for those sections that do need more bitrate. Single pass VBR still varies, but not by as much as two pass.


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Simon Weaver
Re: Rendered Blur in video in video with SVP 13 (Picture in Picture)
on Jun 14, 2015 at 6:20:05 am

Hi Norman
I was not too sure what you meant.
Here is my render settings as they are now....


It is set to variable.... should it be fixed at constant? and if so, what number?
Thanks


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John Rofrano
Re: Rendered Blur in video in video with SVP 13 (Picture in Picture)
on Jun 14, 2015 at 2:11:11 pm

[Simon Weaver] "Hi Norman, I was not too sure what you meant."
Norman as referring to using the Two-Pass option:


[Simon Weaver] "It is set to variable.... should it be fixed at constant? and if so, what number?"
Since you have to set to 50Mbps for both average and max I would set CBR to 50Mbps.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Simon Weaver
Re: Rendered Blur in video in video with SVP 13 (Picture in Picture)
on Jun 14, 2015 at 4:44:29 pm

Ok understood, thank you very much :)


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Bob Peterson
Re: Rendered Blur in video in video with SVP 13 (Picture in Picture)
on Jun 11, 2015 at 1:25:21 am

How are you obtaining your picture in a picture? Are you using pan/crop or track motion?


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Simon Weaver
Re: Rendered Blur in video in video with SVP 13 (Picture in Picture)
on Jun 11, 2015 at 4:14:56 am

Hello Bob
Yes, that is correct.
What I do is record the actual webcam footage, then import into Sony Vegas, disable resample.
Next I use event pan/crop, maintain aspect ratio, then reduce the size of the video so I get the Picture in Picture effect.

What I have also done then is used cookie cutter to reduce it a little more but creates a border. However, the problem occurs with or without the border.

When I do preview the video within the Sony Vegas preview window (full screen), it is absolutely fine. You could not see any flaws or issues.


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John Rofrano
Re: Rendered Blur in video in video with SVP 13 (Picture in Picture)
on Jun 11, 2015 at 11:51:46 am

[Simon Weaver] "Next I use event pan/crop, maintain aspect ratio, then reduce the size of the video so I get the Picture in Picture effect."
Try using Track Motion instead of Pan/Crop. Track Motion works best for Picture-in-Picture. Then use a Sony Border effect to add the border instead of Cookie Cutter. See if you get better results.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Simon Weaver
Re: Rendered Blur in video in video with SVP 13 (Picture in Picture)
on Jun 11, 2015 at 12:18:37 pm

Hi John
Thanks for this :)
Let me see if I can do this and get back to you Sir.

Simon


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Simon Weaver
Re: Rendered Blur in video in video with SVP 13 (Picture in Picture)
on Jun 12, 2015 at 8:47:50 pm

Hi guys
An update.....
Check out my latest video.... give us your thoughts!
I have made the picture in picture better.
I dropped cookie clicker (or cutter) and got my own border as a layer now.
Still runs 60fps, so you need good internet connection, but it does look a lot better.

Video is here:




When you compare to my original Star Wars video, I hope you see a difference.


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John Rofrano
Re: Rendered Blur in video in video with SVP 13 (Picture in Picture)
on Jun 13, 2015 at 1:33:18 pm
Last Edited By John Rofrano on Jun 13, 2015 at 1:55:38 pm

[Simon Weaver] "Still runs 60fps, so you need good internet connection, but it does look a lot better."
Still a stutter mess. I guess you don't care of people can watch your videos or not because you continue to upload 60p. BTW, my Internet connection is 50Mbos up and 50Mbps down so it's not slow. Perhaps it's a YouTube problem. All it does is show a few frames and then buffer. Totally unwatchable.

It's probably also important to note that the video you are trying to emulate has the person's face large and well lit while your face is in the shadows which tend to get blurry due to lack of definition. So you might want to shine a light on your face to get better video.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Norman Black
Re: Rendered Blur in video in video with SVP 13 (Picture in Picture)
on Jun 13, 2015 at 11:15:57 pm
Last Edited By Norman Black on Jun 13, 2015 at 11:17:46 pm

[John Rofrano] "It's probably also important to note that the video you are trying to emulate has the person's face large and well lit while your face is in the shadows which tend to get blurry due to lack of definition. So you might want to shine a light on your face to get better video."

+1

Many times, the little things really can matter when one is trying to push bitrate down to internet delivery levels.


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Simon Weaver
Re: Rendered Blur in video in video with SVP 13 (Picture in Picture)
on Jun 14, 2015 at 6:25:58 am

Thank you :)
Yes, noted this too... also increased the PIP size... and added more light... so I truly appreciate and understand this.

Trial and error at times... but my next battle appears to be this 60FPS or 30FPS upload!!
Are you able to see the latest video here? And can you play it?







The gameplay video is slightly dark, but I hope its an improvement over my first.


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John Rofrano
Re: Rendered Blur in video in video with SVP 13 (Picture in Picture)
on Jun 14, 2015 at 2:30:13 pm

[Simon Weaver] "Are you able to see the latest video here? And can you play it?"
I had no trouble with that one and I see it's 108060p but it is a Sunday morning here so bandwidth is probably plentiful. Your face is brighter with more detail but the video is very dark. I understand that darkness is part of the game when you play but perhaps you might want to increase the gamma just a bit for playback. That's a personal choice I guess.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Simon Weaver
Re: Rendered Blur in video in video with SVP 13 (Picture in Picture)
on Jun 14, 2015 at 4:52:23 pm

Hi John (again!) :)
I am working with the developer, because he agrees that the image lighting is dark, so has improved on this and I will be uploading a new gameplay video tonight, which I hope does address this.

Also 30FPS :)
Simon


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Simon Weaver
Re: Rendered Blur in video in video with SVP 13 (Picture in Picture)
on Jun 14, 2015 at 6:23:27 am

John
I decided to test this theory, and I went to a friends house 35MB download / 5MB UP and using Google they could watch in 720p/60 and 1080p/60.
So of course I want people to watch the videos.... YouTube offered 60FPS last year, so I was simply making them in the best format possible.
What I will do for you, is upload a 30fps video, then see if it plays. You do not mention what web browser you use, but it has been tested on Google Chrome and IE - What I noticed, is that IE did not seem to "buffer" the same amount as chrome... but seeing as IE is pants, I am not too worried.
I will send you a link...... Also interested in others are getting the same sort of problems.


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John Rofrano
Re: Rendered Blur in video in video with SVP 13 (Picture in Picture)
on Jun 14, 2015 at 2:24:25 pm

[Simon Weaver] "YouTube offered 60FPS last year, so I was simply making them in the best format possible."
Just because something CAN be done doesn't mean that it SHOULD be done. This is a mistake that most new editors make when they push every parameter to 10 figuring that MORE must be BETTER. That isn't always true. As I said, Internet video is a balancing act. I checked your video in the early morning and I could watch it. The same video at night buffers. I'm guessing that the number of people streaming video has an impact which would make sense since more people are watching videos at night.

I'm just pointing this out because if you are competing with other people for views and they are delivering 30p to their viewers and if more people watch their videos it might be because theirs are more watchable on limited bandwidth connections.

Also note, that MOST of Internet video watching is done on phones and tablets at 3G or LTE speed! Try watching your 60p video over a cell connection and see if it's still smooth. It all depends on who you are trying to reach. If it's just gamers who have big PC's and fast connection then don't change a thing.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Simon Weaver
Re: Rendered Blur in video in video with SVP 13 (Picture in Picture)
on Jun 14, 2015 at 4:51:23 pm

Hi John
Thank you very much for this reply.
I am taking everything you say on board.
Right now, I am about to do a new video, and I intend to record 1080P / 30FPS.
To give you an idea, I done a very quick test video just for you :)

So I hope this works fine.

I am based in the UK, but I have tested the video on 4G which was great and 3G, which I can say was "ok" - Not the best, but then the 3G signal was not great.
On WiFi it is good :)

Here is my test video for you.





Regards
Simon


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Norman Black
Re: Rendered Blur in video in video with SVP 13 (Picture in Picture)
on Jun 14, 2015 at 2:54:43 pm

[Simon Weaver] "So of course I want people to watch the videos.... YouTube offered 60FPS last year, so I was simply making them in the best format possible."

One can say 60p is more than 30p, but more does not directly equate to best.

As for 30p vs 60p, I would render in each and watch them. If the 30p looks good at normal playback then I would use that since it put less stress on the delivery.


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Simon Weaver
Re: Rendered Blur in video in video with SVP 13 (Picture in Picture)
on Jun 14, 2015 at 4:54:31 pm

Hi Norman
60FPS looks good when there is a lot of action on board, and all I was doing was jumping on the band wagon, as most gamers had already started to do 1080p / 60FPS.
I fully understand and do appreciate that this setting may not suit all viewers, but I am doing a video later in 30FPS.
So I have created a new project with 30FPS (actually 29.97 I think was the figure) and will render in 30FPS and will capture in 30FPS :)
Then upload.
Appreciate the feedback sir.


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Norman Black
Re: Rendered Blur in video in video with SVP 13 (Picture in Picture)
on Jun 14, 2015 at 7:27:23 pm

[Simon Weaver] "So I have created a new project with 30FPS (actually 29.97 I think was the figure) and will render in 30FPS and will capture in 30FPS :)"

If you capture 60p and want to render 30p then pay close attention to the exact source frame rate. If the source is 59.94 then 29.97 would be the proper half rate. If the source is exactly 60, then 30 is the proper half rate. I say this since video captured from a computer screen may be 60.0 and not the NTSC 59.94.

For computer playback you don't really care much about the precise frame rate (29.97 or 30.0). For TV playback then one needs to output NTSC or PAL whichever is appropriate.


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Simon Weaver
Re: Rendered Blur in video in video with SVP 13 (Picture in Picture)
on Jun 15, 2015 at 4:22:13 am

HI Norman
Thanks, ok understood :)

This is the latest upload to YouTube 30fps






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