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Why would someone choose Vegas over say the Adobe suite...?

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Nick McMahon
Why would someone choose Vegas over say the Adobe suite...?
on Mar 7, 2015 at 12:40:22 pm
Last Edited By Nick McMahon on Mar 7, 2015 at 12:43:06 pm

I'm a newbie to NLE and I try to comprehend and understand the history behind things that are new to me. I like to try to get a realistic perspective for decision making and learning where something has come from gives me the best view on where it's at now.

(JR... I sent you an email)

So this new question is aimed at all the professionals and experts here who choose to use Vegas Pro.

I've come to understand from several people here and others I've spoken to verbally that Vegas has not kept up with the newly developed GPU's. With this readily identifiable lack of updated GPU support that Vegas has (suggestions are that it's stuck in 2010) why would anyone choose to use it over and above another Windows based NLE like Adobe Premiere...?

Nick... BASE1268

3...2...1...C ya


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Bob Peterson
Re: Why would someone choose Vegas over say the Adobe suite...?
on Mar 7, 2015 at 2:13:47 pm

Why would someone choose their video editor based on GPU support? Why would someone choose their still photo editor based on GPU support? Have many people forgotten that there is such a thing as a CPU? I have never used GPU support because I do not need it. My CPU is more than fast enough to support my editing needs when it comes to video. Vegas offers me a far better ability to edit my videos than Adobe does. Adobe is excellent for editing still photos. Vegas is excellent for editing video and sound. That is why I choose Adobe for still photos, and Vegas for video and audio. However, let's take that a step farther. Izotope is far better for editing audio when you need to repair defects in the audio. So....you use the tool that works best to accomplish the end purpose. GPU is a consideration, but a minor one.

Go with Adobe, and pay ransomeware forever. I have CS6, and do not plan to upgrade beyond that point. Perhaps, Adobe will someday understand that its customers do not wish to be held captive to their desire for a permanent flow of revenue. Or, perhaps someday photographers will see a better alternative to Adobe. Video and audio people already have a better alternative.


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Sorin Nicu
Re: Why would someone choose Vegas over say the Adobe suite...?
on Mar 7, 2015 at 2:31:21 pm

[Bob Peterson] "Why would someone choose their video editor based on GPU support?"
Because time on Earth is the only thing that you cannot buy, therefore is the most important asset we have?

If you don't care how you spend this time and like to look at a computer screen waiting for rendering bar to fill... more power to you!


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Bob Peterson
Re: Why would someone choose Vegas over say the Adobe suite...?
on Mar 7, 2015 at 3:41:00 pm

I don't spend my time doing nothing, but look at a computer screen. That would be dumb. While a render is running, there many other things to do. I can do many other things on the computer while the render is processing. I can take a walk. I can think and plan. I can read a book. I can talk to people. It was not that long ago that renders were left to run all night, and that was what they did. Now, mine typically take about two times the length of the video. So two hours for a one hour video. How much would that two hours be reduced by using a GPU?

I save far more time editing because SVP does what I want it to do without a lot of hassle. Premiere Pro does not. I gain a ton of advantages from SVP, and lose nothing to rendering time. If that is not your experience, perhaps a different editor would be a better choice for you. On top of that, I save a ton of money because I don't pay a monthly fee to use the software.


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Paul Belter
Re: Why would someone choose Vegas over say the Adobe suite...?
on Mar 8, 2015 at 11:54:59 am

if anything can be done faster, it should be done like that. i use vegas because it is the most flexible, most comfortable and most powerful all in one set i ve ever known. so vegas for audio and video, photoshop for stills and izotope plus sound forge for audio tweaking and repairing. i cannot think of a better solution than that set. and i am not using gpu for editing it is switched off because it is true that sony didn't do a good job about cooperation with graphic cards. that is why vegas needs high end cards to run stable. so i set gpu to off. i have enough powerful cpu to fluently preview avchd even with color correction. but when i render, i always pick render with GPU because it really is faster, so why not?


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John Rofrano
Re: Why would someone choose Vegas over say the Adobe suite...?
on Mar 8, 2015 at 1:24:47 pm

[Paul Belter] " i have enough powerful cpu to fluently preview avchd even with color correction. but when i render, i always pick render with GPU because it really is faster, so why not?"
Why not is because sometimes is causes undesirable artifacts. I wouldn't have believed it if I didn't see it with my own eyes but I had video that I was zooming into and with GPU some of the lines were very jagged and with GPU off they smoothed right out. So GPU rendering can cause problems at times. This is why 3D applications never use the GPU for rendering. They are all software based for rendering and only use GPU for previews.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Nick McMahon
Re: Why would someone choose Vegas over say the Adobe suite...?
on Mar 7, 2015 at 4:01:39 pm

[Bob Peterson] "My CPU is more than fast enough to support my editing needs when it comes to video"

Bob.... what is the CPU that works for you and means that the GPU is not a primary consideration...?

Nick... BASE1268

3...2...1...C ya


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John Rofrano
Re: Why would someone choose Vegas over say the Adobe suite...?
on Mar 7, 2015 at 4:08:14 pm

[Bob Peterson] "I have never used GPU support because I do not need it. "
I agree that some people don't need it but you would if you were doing a lot of compositing. You might want to test with my Vegas Pro 12.0 GPU Render Test Project. The project is 15 seconds long. It has two tracks:. The lower track contains a Generated Media NTSC Color Bars that rotates 360 degrees in 15 seconds. The upper track had Generated Media Noise Texture with the Progress animated so that it would move. I added Sony Bump Map and Sony Glow (both GPU accelerated FX) to the noise texture and the composite level of the event was dropped to 60% so that the rotating colors bars would show through. Compositing random movement ensures that ever frame would need to be rendered during the test. This project requires Vegas Pro 12.0 to open.

Let us know what your frame rate is when playing this back on Best Full. I do a lot of compositing and I wouldn't want to work without a GPU when doing it. Having said that, I don't need a GPU when editing rock concerts because it's mostly one track with minimal color grading. So depending on the type of work that you do, a GPU can be necessary or unneeded.
[Bob Peterson] "Or, perhaps someday photographers will see a better alternative to Adobe."
Competitors are working on this and their advertising includes the tag line, "no subscriptions". Affinity is one such competitor. They already have Affinity Designer which competes with Illustrator and they are just introducing Affinity Photo to complete with Photoshop. I learned about these here at the COW in a discussion on finding alternatives to Adobe so people don't like their new model and they are finding alternatives and software developers and filling the void.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Sorin Nicu
Re: Why would someone choose Vegas over say the Adobe suite...?
on Mar 7, 2015 at 7:35:55 pm

[John Rofrano] "You might want to test with my Vegas Pro 12.0 GPU Render Test Project."
I was curious. "Render as" with MainConcept AVC 720P profile, because is the only one that finds my GPU. Sony AVC profile cannot even find this new GPU.

With my 6 core Xeon X5650 it took 24 seconds.
With CUDA enabled (on GTX960) it took 10 seconds - however I know that h264 encoding part will not be accelerated by this card, only the effects.


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Bob Peterson
Re: Why would someone choose Vegas over say the Adobe suite...?
on Mar 7, 2015 at 9:45:09 pm
Last Edited By Bob Peterson on Mar 7, 2015 at 9:48:50 pm

I ran the test although I did not want to spend an undue amount of time, so I simply eyeballed the frame rate. I should say that I am running SVP 12. Without the GPU, I got about .4 fps with Best Full, and about 1.3fps with Preview Full. With GPU support, I got about 1.5 fps with Best Full, and about 12.5fps with Preview Full. My graphics card is an Nvidia GEforce 9800 GT.

None of these frame rates would be acceptable to me, and it is not a surprise to me that, if enough processing is added, Vegas will be very slow. I've been there, and done that. I will say that an increase from .4 to 1.5 seems negligible to me, but I do see your point. If I lived in the world of this test, I would join Nick in looking for a new NLE. Fortunately, I do not. I defer as much of the heavy processing as possible in the development of projects, and the only time I use Best Full is when I want to get a good screen shot.

I will say, however, that, if we are still talking about a render (meaning the creation of an encoded file), my pain threshold would be substantially higher.

Also, I am curious. How does Premiere Pro fare with this test? Is it significantly better than SVP? Is it enough better that moving to it from SVP is justified?


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John Rofrano
Re: Why would someone choose Vegas over say the Adobe suite...?
on Mar 7, 2015 at 10:49:58 pm

[Bob Peterson] "If I lived in the world of this test, I would join Nick in looking for a new NLE. Fortunately, I do not."
No need to look for a new NLE. I get full frame rate 29.97 fps with Vegas Pro 13 using my Radeon HD 5870. That's the difference the right GPU makes with Vegas Pro. My frame rate with GPU off was around 0.5 fps by comparison.
[Bob Peterson] "How does Premiere Pro fare with this test? "
On the same computer probably very different because Adobe has put all their eggs in the CUDA basket so you would want an NVIDA GPU if you are using Adobe products. I think they now support OpenCL but I don't know how good it is.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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John Rofrano
Re: Why would someone choose Vegas over say the Adobe suite...?
on Mar 7, 2015 at 3:45:46 pm

[Nick McMahon] "I've come to understand from several people here and others I've spoken to verbally that Vegas has not kept up with the newly developed GPU's."
This statement needs to be qualified. The MainConcept AVC encoder has not kept up with newer GPU since 2010. Vegas Pro itself will take advantage of the fastest most powerful OpenCL card that you can throw at it! Do not confused encoding with timeline playback. The bad part is that the most popular delivery format is AVC/H.264 so the MainConcept AVC encoder not supporting newer GPU's becomes a problem for people. It works great on my Radeon HD 5870 :-D
[Nick McMahon] "why would anyone choose to use it over and above another Windows based NLE like Adobe Premiere...?"
Because you can't buy Adobe Premiere. You can only rent it and when you stop paying rent it stops working. That's a non-starter for many people including me. I don't rent software. More and more companies are moving to the subscription model and I don't plan to subscribe to any of them so Adobe is simply not an option.

The only other option on Windows is Avid Media Composer and that is a very rigid workflow that most Vegas editors would balk at. Everything takes longer to do and you get to pay $1299 USD for the privilege of working the "Avid way". You can also rent from Avid (which isn't going to happen for me either) so it's not really a good option either.

Then there's... ??? well... there isn't anything else. So where ya' gonna go?

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Nick McMahon
Re: Why would someone choose Vegas over say the Adobe suite...?
on Mar 7, 2015 at 3:56:22 pm

[John Rofrano] "Because you can't buy Adobe Premiere. You can only rent it and when you stop paying rent it stops working."

Holy creative cow Batman !!!.... You don't own a copy... you have to rent it...? That's not readily obvious when you look at the Adobe website so thanks for that John. Not sure I like that idea at all either.

And as you say apart from Avid, which is slow AND expensive, there is nothing else. Now it makes perfect sense why those who don't want to use Apple product and FCP X and don't want to rent their NLE really need to make the best of SVP.

Nick... BASE1268

3...2...1...C ya


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John Rofrano
Re: Why would someone choose Vegas over say the Adobe suite...?
on Mar 7, 2015 at 4:18:22 pm

[Nick McMahon] "...you have to rent it...? That's not readily obvious when you look at the Adobe website"
And don't let the monthly price fool you. You can't buy it for a month! That's a "bate and switch" scam. You need to read the fine print "annual contract billed monthly". So you can only buy it for a year at a time which cost $600 a year, billed at $49.99 a month.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Russ Froze
Re: Why would someone choose Vegas over say the Adobe suite...?
on Mar 7, 2015 at 5:17:13 pm

[Nick McMahon] "Why would someone choose Vegas over say the Adobe suite...?"

Well that is a fair question.To put simply it's a matter of choice.
For my business, clients do not want a workstation that is online so it's a security issue. I also do not like software reaching out to the web whenever it feels like it. It is none of anybodies business what is on my machine.

Although the subscription model used by Adobe is a manageable payment per month, should your business run into a negative situation be it due to a billing issue or perhaps an investment in new gear due to theft or accident or perhaps you are bankrolling your pet project that's been in the works for years, if you don't pay the monthly ransom, your software is all locked up.

Then there is the gpu debate. Frankly when it comes to soft shadows or gradients, the gpu calculations are poor at best especially in 3D software. Colors are not as true compared to software render and blending modes can have some undesirable results.

As to rendering speed, yes it's true some codec choices do not utilise the gpu very well in Vegas but my cuda cores do just fine with main concept and even avchd. Frankly having done rendering comparisons, Adobe is not really all that much quicker and quite often it lags by hours compared to other systems. But then that's probably just my setup.

Now lets move on to the audio section. I like the virtual mixer in Vegas. Sure two or thee tracks of camera audio are manageable on an edit timeline. But what happens when using dedicated audio recorders per camera. Suddenly 3 audio tracks turn into 6 tracks that need to be synchronized. Now add 16 tracks of music, and effect send and returns. Create sub groups and all the audio stuff. Where would one use such method? Well say a live band performance or a short for a film festival and yes even a feature production could use such a workflow.

The lack of importance given to the audio section baffles me. If audio is just something to fill the silence, why did the silent moving picture show fade away sooo quickly. If all that is being done is show images of something interesting, then there is no need at all to invest in an NLE. There are plenty of scripts that will stitch together a video for you. Should scripting not be your flavor, there are a handful of free GUI NLE. And if speed is all so important, simply download Davinci Resolve and fusion and your all set. No other product can render as fast as Resolve, and Fusion is a state of the art compositor with few rivals.Throw in free PRO Tools for audio and you have a screaming fast NLE with some of the best high end tools for free. So the question should be "Why would someone choose to pay when the best stuff is free"?

Finally although after effects is a competent compositor, I find getting the look I favor seems to be unattainable for me. I have much better success with Fusion or Nuke (on Mac). And that brings us to the point of using a dedicated app for compositing. Again I can not achieve the look of a good composite in an NLE and yes I have all the plugs to aid in that endeavour.

So you see it's all subjective a personal choice and that's a good thing.
Russ Froze


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John Rofrano
Re: Why would someone choose Vegas over say the Adobe suite...?
on Mar 7, 2015 at 10:27:52 pm

[Russ Froze] "Throw in free PRO Tools for audio and you have a screaming fast NLE with some of the best high end tools for free."
It should be pointed out that the FREE Pro Tools is not really "free". It is more like a "free trial" because you have to start paying after you create your 3rd project and none of your existing audio plug-in will work with it. It's basically a sales gimmick for Avid to sell more subscriptions.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Russ Froze
Re: Why would someone choose Vegas over say the Adobe suite...?
on Mar 8, 2015 at 8:44:59 am

[John Rofrano] "It's basically a sales gimmick for Avid to sell more subscriptions."
Ain't that just like avid, Thanks for pointing it out and saving me a bunch of frustration. And yup I told Avid they were free to be Avid Everywhere save on my workstations.
Russ Froze


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John Rofrano
Re: Why would someone choose Vegas over say the Adobe suite...?
on Mar 8, 2015 at 1:20:57 pm

The thing that gets me is that none of your existing audio plug-ins work. Pro Tools Free has it's own ecosystem and you must buy all of your audio plug-ins from their app store and they only work with Pro Tools free. It's a brilliant scheme to lock the customer in under the guise of "free".

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Russ Froze
Re: Why would someone choose Vegas over say the Adobe suite...?
on Mar 9, 2015 at 4:23:21 am

I'm sure the legal department has gone over it as to avoid law suites, but from a moral viewpoint, it's just plain wrong. With that I'd like to add one more point as to why choose Vegas. So far Sony has yet to outright lie to me about product features. So lets call it integrity.


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Stephen Mann
Re: Why would someone choose Vegas over say the Adobe suite...?
on Mar 8, 2015 at 4:31:55 am

Nick, asking for opinions about Editing Software is like asking about religion. Guess which church you're in right now?

The decision of which program to use depends on too many variables to be selected from other people's experiences. First question - is this a career decision? If it is, then you probably should go ahead and mortgage your soul to Adobe. If it's just for personal use, then you won't find any other NLE that is easier to learn than Vegas. But, I am biased. Let's put it this way, I can do any given project faster in Vegas than an experienced Adobe Premiere user.

All the NLE programs are great... and they all suck! They are just tools and in today's world they all will get the job done. But as tools go, some are better than others for certain jobs. The right answer for me could be the wrong one for you.

I have been using Vegas since Version 3, pre-Sony. I've never run into anything it can't do for me, so I've never had any reason to try other software.

BTW - most of what you hear from non-Vegas users is either very old information or flat out wrong.

Steve Mann
MannMade Digital Video
http://www.mmdv.com


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Nick McMahon
Re: Why would someone choose Vegas over say the Adobe suite...?
on Mar 8, 2015 at 12:22:38 pm

[Stephen Mann] "Nick, asking for opinions about Editing Software is like asking about religion. Guess which church you're in right now?"

That may be the case Stephen, though everything I see is through my staunch atheist/Darwinian eyes and although some would try to argue that this view of life can also be defined as a religion, that's a whole different debate.... but I've gained a valuable insight already so keep it coming guys.

I asked the question for several reasons and one motivation to learn as much as possible is because I'm trying to decide on the portable rig I'm about to configure. Asking those who make their living from editing video is a sure way to get a good understanding of what people use and why they choose to use it.

The question formed after a bit of searching and discovered that Adobe and Nvidia have seemingly teamed up to produce what seems on the surface like a very fast GPU acceleration as 4k resolution becomes commonplace.

http://www.nvidia.com/object/adobe-premiere-pro-cc.html

However, as I've learnt, Adobe premiere is a NLE for rent and although it may work for big companies who do stuff on a large scale with loads of money in a pot, it's easily understandable that independent's wouldn't see any viability in renting their tools... so... if you want to choose to remain on this side of the Apple empire, the only real cost effective solution for those who earn a living shooting/editing video is Sony Vegas Pro (hope that's a good summary)

Hmmmm.... do I sense room in the marketplace for a new NLE that is sold on exactly the same basis as SVP, slightly cheaper for that competitive edge, but takes on board all the things that SVP lacks (I have no idea what they are) and is in direct competition with..... ???

Nick... BASE1268

3...2...1...C ya


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John Rofrano
Re: Why would someone choose Vegas over say the Adobe suite...?
on Mar 8, 2015 at 1:36:13 pm

[Nick McMahon] "Hmmmm.... do I sense room in the marketplace for a new NLE that is sold on exactly the same basis as SVP, slightly cheaper for that competitive edge, but takes on board all the things that SVP lacks (I have no idea what they are) and is in direct competition with..... ???"
What does Vegas Pro lack for consumers? (wait you already said that you don't know what they are). So if you don't know what's missing then how do you know that Vegas Pro doesn't already have it? ;-) We already had a thread about what Vegas Pro lacks for Pros and it was mostly centered around collaboration on large projects which I assume you don't need. Sony Movie Studio starts at $49.95 so it can't get much cheaper than that (and Movie Studio is an extremely capable NLE)

IMHO, the only thing Vegas Pro needs is GPU support that consistently works. That and fix the things that Vegas 13 broke in Vegas 12 like Closed Captioning.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Nick McMahon
Re: Why would someone choose Vegas over say the Adobe suite...?
on Mar 8, 2015 at 4:34:40 pm

[John Rofrano] "What does Vegas Pro lack for consumers? (wait you already said that you don't know what they are). So if you don't know what's missing then how do you know that Vegas Pro doesn't already have it? ;-)"

Good point John.... yes I shouldn't really assume that there are things which could improve Vegas if I don't know what they are... lol... but my assumption is based on reading how Vegas might run more optimally if it were re-written to match the pace of hardware development and the multi-core environment

So I have to wonder if there is a good case for some clever people to design an ideal NLE that uses ALL the feedback from video editors globally to write a program that the end user wants rather than trying to guess what they might like and then set about not just designing a new NLE but also the perfect machine to run it on.

So instead of trying endless combinations of hardware configs to get the best performance from the software, there is a union of software and hardware.... Of course Apple have already done that... (so I'm told) :-)

Nick... BASE1268

3...2...1...C ya


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John Rofrano
Re: Why would someone choose Vegas over say the Adobe suite...?
on Mar 9, 2015 at 12:22:00 pm

[Nick McMahon] "So instead of trying endless combinations of hardware configs to get the best performance from the software, there is a union of software and hardware.... Of course Apple have already done that... (so I'm told) :-)"
Yes they have and that's one of the big reason's I moved to the Mac. These conversations are amusing to me, but I no longer have to worry about them. ;-)

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Nick McMahon
Re: Why would someone choose Vegas over say the Adobe suite...?
on Mar 9, 2015 at 12:41:37 pm

[John Rofrano] "Yes they have and that's one of the big reason's I moved to the Mac."

I'm off to my local Apple store to have a guided tour of FCP X.... I think it has to be worth a look and with the money I'm now looking at spending on a portable workstation I can get a really nice Mac Book pro... so lets go and see how easy it is to use with it's magnetic timeline... I just watched some of the stuff from the Apple website and I like what I see.

Nick... BASE1268

3...2...1...C ya


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John Rofrano
Re: Why would someone choose Vegas over say the Adobe suite...?
on Mar 9, 2015 at 10:30:35 pm

[Nick McMahon] "I'm off to my local Apple store to have a guided tour of FCP X.."
If you want to be blown away, have them demo it on the new iMac with Retina 5K display. The display is not to be believed. I know you're not looking for a desktop but for $2499 it's an absolutely gorgeous machine for editing 4K in FCP X. Because the display is 5K, you can preview 4K video in FCP X at full size with room for the timeline and browsers!!! I saw it after I bought my Mac Pro and almost regretted the purchase. It's really, really, sweet and worth a look even if you don't plan to buy it.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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