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Nick McMahon
Pagefile needed for rendering...?
on Feb 28, 2015 at 11:02:56 pm

Reading thru an SSD optimisation guide on Windows (7 & 8) it justifies turning off the pagefiling system cos systems now have much more memory available in comparison to when the pagefile was designed.

I did so and only came across an issue when i tried to render a vegas project and it crashed at 6% claiming I didn't have enough memory to complete the task.

Turned the pagefile back on with automatic setting and problem disappeared.

Can anyone enlighten me here please...? Is there a setting I can change which sends vegas elsewhere to use available memory during render so I can have my cake... and eat it too... squeezing every ounce of performance from my SSD...?

cheers

Nick... BASE1268

3...2...1...C ya


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John Rofrano
Re: Pagefile needed for rendering...?
on Mar 2, 2015 at 12:35:48 am

I had one of my PC's set up with no page file and 16GB of memory and didn't have any problems. You could always allocate the smallest page file size that Microsoft recommends. Pagefiles are really unnecessary with the abundance of memory on computers these days.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Nick McMahon
Re: Pagefile needed for rendering...?
on Mar 2, 2015 at 11:04:59 am

I thought my 6gb of memory on this old machine woulda been enough.... apparently not... I'm sure I read in the optimisation guide that I could move it to a Hard disk...? but I need to understand exactly what removing (or moving) the pagefile from the SSD will do for it. The guide doesn't go into full explanation of exactly what benefit you get cos it was one of several tweaks that all together make for an optimised SSD... so I need to do some research.

Nick... BASE1268

3...2...1...C ya


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Dave Osbun
Re: Pagefile needed for rendering...?
on Mar 2, 2015 at 3:45:28 pm

You should have 8gb of RAM as a minimum. Personally, 16gb is really where you need to be (at a minimum) with modern video editing workstations. With the price of RAM so cheap nowadays, it's best run with 16gb at least.

Dave


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Nick McMahon
Re: Pagefile needed for rendering...?
on Mar 2, 2015 at 5:47:15 pm

My new machine has 16 and will soon enough have 32... it's my old one that this pagefile is seemingly an issue when i disable it and try to render in SVP.... do you think 8gb would solve it..?

Nick... BASE1268

3...2...1...C ya


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Kell Hymer
Re: Pagefile needed for rendering...?
on Mar 4, 2015 at 7:59:36 am

[Nick McMahon] "Reading thru an SSD optimisation guide on Windows (7 & 8) it justifies turning off the pagefiling system cos systems now have much more memory available in comparison to when the pagefile was designed."

Good thing you are on a creative forum and not on a hardware/tech forum. Otherwise you might have started a war on this thread! For some bizarre reason, this is a volatile topic among PC enthusiasts. The debate to set a page file or not is as passionate as political debates; everyone and their mother has a opinion, but 99.9% of them have no freaking idea what they are even talking about. Having said that, I will now proceed to give my opinion...lol.

6GB is certainly not enough. I often fully saturate the 32GB on my machine. The windows page file acts as a buffer by reserving a portion of your HDD or SSD as a dedicated overflow in the event you saturate your RAM. This space acts as a virtual memory, albeit significantly slower than your RAM. If Windows detects that you are running out of memory, it will begin dumping memory to the page file to avoid a system crash.

Feel free to skip this paragraph if you are already familiar with how a page file works. Think of it this way, your hard drive or SSD is like a massive library of books. Your RAM is your desk space where you read the books. If your desk is small, you can only open one book at a time. If you need to cross reference a topic in your studies, you must close your current book, put it back on the library shelf, retrieve the reference book, place it on your desk, and read. Now that you have done that, you return the reference book to the shelf and then go and grab the original title and return to you desk. Repeat this process each time you need to reference another book. To speed things up, a large desk is required. With it, you can retrieve multiple books from the shelves and lay them all out for quick access to cross reference as needed. Suppose you decided to conduct a study on the rational of politicians (sorry, I'm on a kick here :) ). If you do not completely fry your brain (CPU) in the process, you may find that even with a large desk, you still do not have sufficient working space. The page file is the equivalent of clearing some library shelf space near your desk to stage, if needed, some of the books you are referencing. Accessing them is not as fast as accessing the data on your desk, but it is much easier than walking the isles of the library to retrieve and return the same books over and over.

There are 3 primary reasons that disabling or limiting the page file size will "optimize" your SSD:
First = Space. SSDs have come down in price but even now, the cost per GB is far more expensive than it is on an HDD. As such, most SSDs do not have a large capacity. Allocating a page file renders that chunk of data unusable for any other purpose, thus limiting precious storage space for your files.

Second = Performance. Similar to HDDS, SSD performance (data transfer speeds) begins to drop as the drive becomes full. I read somewhere that performance degradation begins once 50% of the disk is filled but I do not know if that is an accurate number. After some point, the more data on the drive, the slower it gets. I have experienced this first hand. The performance drops are significant. The page file adds to the utilized space on the SSD. This was a much more serious concern in the early days when SSDs had limited capacity and did not manage garbage effectively. Modern SSDs now have TRIM to manage garbage. TRIM is a complicated subject but to keep it simple, imagine if you never took out the trash (deleted files) and instead piled it all into some corner in your house. Sooner than later, the clutter would build up making it difficult to move around your house. TRIM takes out the trash (manages deleted files).

Third = Durability. This is arguably the biggest concern of page file use on an SSD. SSD technology has improved significantly, making this less of a concern. However, the cells in an SSD can only handle so many read and write operations. A page file located on an SSD has the potential to wear out the drive faster with an unusually high amount of read and writes as it is treating it like RAM. While this is a legitimate concern, the life span of an SSD significantly exceeds that of an HDD. SSDs will last 10 to 20 years under typical use. The best bet is to set up the page file on separate HDD, or a dedicated caching (32 or 64 GB) SSD if you wish the page file to be fast


[Nick McMahon] "I did so and only came across an issue when i tried to render a vegas project and it crashed at 6% claiming I didn't have enough memory to complete the task. Turned the pagefile back on with automatic setting and problem disappeared."

This is not surprising. With enough RAM, Windows will usually function just fine without the page file, however, many programs require a page file, even if the allocated space is minimal. If a page file is not found, some programs may crash or may not even start. 6GB alone is not enough for both Windows and Sony Vegas. Vegas "might" be stable with no page file and more RAM. I have noticed that Vegas, or even my PC, will crash when I use all 32GB of RAM w/o ever using my 4GB page file. This could simply be because the RAM used to preview or pre-render creates a large data file, rather than smaller chunks of data, that are too large to move to the page file, but I am not sure.

In short:
Get more RAM. Get a lot more RAM.

Do not disable the page file

Allocate only a small amount of disk space to the page file or set the page file up on another (dedicated) drive if your SSD has limited capacity.

Keeping the page file on the SSD is generally not an issue unless you plan on using it for 15 years without upgrading SSDs during that time. Note that having a large page file, but limited RAM, will result in a more rapid degradation of your SSD.


Hope that helps!

Current System: Intel i7 4930K OC'd to 4.6 GHz| Asus P9X79 Deluxe | 32GB RAM | AMD R9-290X w/8GB RAM | OCZ Revo 480 GB PCI Express SSD | Windows 7 64 bit | Vegas Pro 12 (64)


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Nick McMahon
Re: Pagefile needed for rendering...?
on Mar 4, 2015 at 12:52:51 pm

[Kell Hymer] "Hope that helps!"

Indeed the tech forums are full of super highly strung geeks who all have their own opinion and believe they are right... echoes of a religion me thinks... :-)

Awesome explanation Kell... no-one could possibly fail to comprehend exactly what the pagefile is and how your OS uses it.... the time you took to write that is very much appreciated and I hope others benefit from it.

I have my new laptop here now as well as this old one.... only a few days old but currently in the process of taking it apart to modify it even more.

Came with 16 gb but going to double it to 32gb.... plus I'm planning on installing an mSATA drive AND moving the hybrid to an external enclosure via USB 3.0 and replacing internally with an SSD exactly the same size as the mSATA... my theory was to be able to try using a software RAID 0 stripe on these 2 solid state configs and get super lightning speed access to data with a partition on the permantly attached hybrid HDD for daily incremental imaging for recovery if either of the SSD's go bust.

Do you have any experience with RAID 0 and as such any tips setting this up...? I have no idea if it will even work between the mSATA and a standard SSD... but I see no reason why it wouldn't providing they are exactly the same capacity.

Nick... BASE1268

3...2...1...C ya


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Kell Hymer
Re: Pagefile needed for rendering...?
on Mar 5, 2015 at 3:22:21 am
Last Edited By Kell Hymer on Mar 5, 2015 at 2:11:41 pm

I do have some experience with RAIDs but it's not extensive. The RAIDs I set up were all hardware RAIDs. Software may be different but RAIDs typically require that the HDDs not only be the same capacity, but usually the exact same make and model. There may be exceptions, but it's risky. I set up one with different HDDs and every time I did, it worked fine for days to a few weeks before it failed. It didn't like 2 different drives.

To best answer your question, tell me what your goal is. Why do you want to set up a RAID?

Current System: Intel i7 4930K OC'd to 4.6 GHz| Asus P9X79 Deluxe | 32GB RAM | AMD R9-290X w/8GB RAM | OCZ Revo 480 GB PCI Express SSD | Windows 7 64 bit | Vegas Pro 12 (64)


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John Rofrano
Re: Pagefile needed for rendering...?
on Mar 5, 2015 at 2:19:34 pm

[Nick McMahon] "Do you have any experience with RAID 0 and as such any tips setting this up...? I have no idea if it will even work between the mSATA and a standard SSD... but I see no reason why it wouldn't providing they are exactly the same capacity."
In theory you can use any two drives of any capacity and it will use the capacity of the smaller one. In practice, I would only use identical capacity drives from the same manufacturer as Kell recommended. Personally, I use the same model number drives (i.e., i don't mix model numbers even within the same manufacturer)

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Nick McMahon
Re: Pagefile needed for rendering...?
on Mar 5, 2015 at 2:38:23 pm

[John Rofrano] " Personally, I use the same model number drives (i.e., i don't mix model numbers even within the same manufacturer)"

Thanks John... a bit more reading and some phone discussions with the incredibly helpful guys who are going to build my new workstation laptop had brought me to that conclusion.

However... I now need to re-phrase the question about RAID and ask it specific to SVP because I was making assumptions that RAID data access makes everything improve in terms of efficiency.

So.... In what way does having faster access to data via RAID 0 improve overall performance of SVP....? (based on my assumption it would)

Nick... BASE1268

3...2...1...C ya


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John Rofrano
Re: Pagefile needed for rendering...?
on Mar 5, 2015 at 2:48:09 pm

[Nick McMahon] "So.... In what way does having faster access to data via RAID 0 improve overall performance of SVP....? (based on my assumption it would)"
First you need to determine that Disk I/O is a bottleneck in your system with regard to SVP. Then using a faster disk subsystem (i.e., RAID 0) would fix that problem for you. It will do very little for SVP itself, it will help in loading large video files faster. So, for example, if you are shooting multi-camara 4K and editing is slow because loading multiple streams of 4K video from your hard drive is slow, then using a RAID will help. A RAID 0 will roughly double your throughput.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Nick McMahon
Re: Pagefile needed for rendering...?
on Mar 5, 2015 at 4:07:17 pm

many thanks John... :-)

Now I can make a more informed decision about the use of faster data access using RAID to suit my needs as they change over time in repect of SVP.

cheers

Nick... BASE1268

3...2...1...C ya


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Kell Hymer
Re: Pagefile needed for rendering...?
on Mar 6, 2015 at 3:04:22 pm

I load all of my source material for the project I am working on at any given moment onto a PCI Express based SSD. I do not remember the random IOPS data, but my sustained read/writes are close to 1200Mbps. This is twice as fast as the best SATA based SSDs on the market.

Current System: Intel i7 4930K OC'd to 4.6 GHz| Asus P9X79 Deluxe | 32GB RAM | AMD R9-290X w/8GB RAM | OCZ Revo 480 GB PCI Express SSD | Windows 7 64 bit | Vegas Pro 12 (64)


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Nick McMahon
Re: Pagefile needed for rendering...?
on Mar 6, 2015 at 5:10:31 pm
Last Edited By Nick McMahon on Mar 6, 2015 at 5:18:13 pm

[Kell Hymer] "but my sustained read/writes are close to 1200Mbps..............."

Now that is quick.... I've come across the plextor M.2 SSD's which claim 770 read/write which outperforms the others like Samsung but not seen the likes of that speed you are quoting anywhere I've looked.

Please.... link me up... I'm doing a stack of research at the moment trying to decide which mSATA I'll go for in the 1st slot available (and I have 2 x M.2 slots with the chassis I'm looking to populate so I'm almost spoilt for options)

1200Mbps is surely as fast as I'd imagined I would want from a RAID set-up but why would I bother if it can be obtained thru a PCI-e slot.

Is this what you're talking about...? http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/samsung-xp941-z97-pci-express,3826-5.ht...

Nick... BASE1268

3...2...1...C ya


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Kell Hymer
Re: Pagefile needed for rendering...?
on Mar 6, 2015 at 5:41:46 pm
Last Edited By Kell Hymer on Mar 6, 2015 at 5:42:32 pm

[Nick McMahon] "200Mbps is surely as fast as I'd imagined I would want from a RAID set-up but why would I bother if it can be obtained thru a PCI-e slot.

Is this what you're talking about...? http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/samsung-xp941-z97-pci-express,3826-5.ht....."


Here are a couple of links. They advertise the drives as "An easy to deploy, single-card alternative to RAID".

http://ocz.com/consumer/revodrive-3-x2-pcie-ssd
http://ocz.com/consumer/revodrive-350-pcie-ssd

I have the 480GB model but it is a number of years old now and these new drives are MUCH faster. Crap...now that I see these new models, I want a new one! It is certainly not the cheapest option but it is wicked fast and stable beyond belief. I transferred over 8GBs from a USB 3.0 flash drive to my OCZ drive and it took a matter of seconds. Note that it will add a few seconds to your post as the disc is initialized at startup. I doubt you are too worried about that though. Some PC guys take pride in how fast their system boots. I don't really care about boot times; working speeds are what I care about.

Current System: Intel i7 4930K OC'd to 4.6 GHz| Asus P9X79 Deluxe | 32GB RAM | AMD R9-290X w/8GB RAM | OCZ Revo 480 GB PCI Express SSD | Windows 7 64 bit | Vegas Pro 12 (64)


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Nick McMahon
Re: Pagefile needed for rendering...?
on Mar 6, 2015 at 6:38:52 pm

Samsung had to come up with this to remain king.... 2150mbps... that is super lightning fast... if they keep going I envisage that a tele-porter is on the cards... :-)

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2866912/samsungs-ludicrously-fast-pcie-ssd-u...

Beam me up Scotty !! !

Nick... BASE1268

3...2...1...C ya


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Kell Hymer
Re: Pagefile needed for rendering...?
on Mar 6, 2015 at 8:04:21 pm

[Nick McMahon] "Samsung had to come up with this to remain king.... 2150mbps... that is super lightning fast... if they keep going I envisage that a tele-porter is on the cards... :-)"

That looks awesome!

Current System: Intel i7 4930K OC'd to 4.6 GHz| Asus P9X79 Deluxe | 32GB RAM | AMD R9-290X w/8GB RAM | OCZ Revo 480 GB PCI Express SSD | Windows 7 64 bit | Vegas Pro 12 (64)


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Nick McMahon
Re: Pagefile needed for rendering...?
on Mar 6, 2015 at 9:13:18 pm

.... and http://www.eurocom.com/ec/release(288)ec

Now that's my kinda portable workstation !!! Desktop inside a laptop.

BTW... what part of the Planet are you on Kell...?

Nick... BASE1268

3...2...1...C ya


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Kell Hymer
Re: Pagefile needed for rendering...?
on Mar 6, 2015 at 9:21:06 pm

[Nick McMahon] "BTW... what part of the Planet are you on Kell...?"

Las Vegas is home for me.

Current System: Intel i7 4930K OC'd to 4.6 GHz| Asus P9X79 Deluxe | 32GB RAM | AMD R9-290X w/8GB RAM | OCZ Revo 480 GB PCI Express SSD | Windows 7 64 bit | Vegas Pro 12 (64)


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Nick McMahon
Re: Pagefile needed for rendering...?
on Mar 6, 2015 at 9:34:03 pm

[Kell Hymer] "Las Vegas is home for me."

That's brilliant.. Vegas in Vegas... :-)

So... I've emailed Eurocom to ask about one of their P5's with the new Samsung kit and how much fruit my money tree would need to bear in order to get my hands on one.... if only for curiosities sake.

Nick... BASE1268

3...2...1...C ya


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Kell Hymer
Re: Pagefile needed for rendering...?
on Mar 7, 2015 at 7:05:05 pm

Let us know what they tell ya.

Current System: Intel i7 4930K OC'd to 4.6 GHz| Asus P9X79 Deluxe | 32GB RAM | AMD R9-290X w/8GB RAM | OCZ Revo 480 GB PCI Express SSD | Windows 7 64 bit | Vegas Pro 12 (64)


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Nick McMahon
Re: Pagefile needed for rendering...?
on Mar 7, 2015 at 10:55:11 pm

[Kell Hymer] "Let us know what they tell ya....."

For sure... Actually having now spent 24 hrs on the Eurocom site running thru the massive choice of kit they offer and scouring the net for any reviews I can find, I think the P7 is the one I'd like to configure as it has the slightly larger 17.3" panel although a 4K screen is a choice with the 15.6" P5.... certainly loads of choice and that really stands out over and above the other laptop custom builders I've seen so far. Of course on the downside for me would be the extra cost of getting a rig from the States to the UK, but it's not so much as to put me off.

The first reply I managed to get within 15 minutes of my original email (tick) confirmed that they will have the SM971 available for this laptop at the end of March AND are about to add the R9 M290X to the list of GPU choices in this model. In my experience, companies keep people interested by providing 'unrealistic release dates', but end of March is only weeks away, so lets see what happens.

I'll have the opportunity over the next couple of weeks to do more research on the company themselves and see what comes up while I'm waiting for that date to arrive and one thing I want to establish is whether the current P7 model can be reconfigured to allow a PCI-e 3.0 interface as this is how the 2Gbps speed of the new SM971 is attained.

PCI-e 2.0 still works but not full throttle and I'd want it all.... :-)

Kell... I see yr rig has the R9 290X... did you build the rig to use with Vegas ...?

Nick... BASE1268

3...2...1...C ya


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Kell Hymer
Re: Pagefile needed for rendering...?
on Mar 10, 2015 at 5:11:21 am

[Nick McMahon] "Kell... I see yr rig has the R9 290X... did you build the rig to use with Vegas ...?"

I started building it for video editing when I was using Pinnacle Studio before they became Avid. I hear great things about the pro-level Avid software. However, the consumer version of Pinnacle was not my favorite program on the planet to put it nicely... I soon came across Sony Vegas Movie Studio and liked it. I was crazy lucky and won 2 separate sweepstakes in which I won Sony Vegas Pro and the full suite of NewBlueFX products.

With pro-level stuff I wanted a good machine to run it. Here iswhat I have put together:

*NZXT Phantom Case with 11 fans. (not including those on the GPU. I am slightly obsessed with keeping my PC as cool as possible w/o messing with custom water cooled solutions)
*ASUS P9X79 Deluxe
*i7 4930K (recently upgraded from i7 3820)
*Corsair H80i liquid CPU cooler (hacked with ducts and much more powerful, albeit louder, fans for significant cooling boost)
*32GB RAM
*1000 watt Raidmax PSU
* XFX R9-290X with 8GB RAM & AMD Radeon HD 5450 (previously used NVIDIA's GTX460, Quadro 2000, Quadro 4000)
* 250GB Samsung 850 Pro SSD boot drive with backup 250GB notebook HDD
* 120GB Samsung 840 Pro
* 480GB OCZ Revo PCI SSD
* 3TB media storage HDD with 60GB Mushkin SSD used as a cache. Additional backup 3TB drive
* 1TB storage and archiving drive with another backup 1TB drive.
* Blue Ray writer
* DVD/Lightscribe drive

Believe it or not, but this was the first PC I have ever built. I spent about 6 months researching the hardware and determined that, at the time, this was the best set up and I still think it is now that I have upgraded processors. The X99 boards look appealing but I do not think they have enough improvements to justify getting one. Maybe the next round of extreme chipsets from Intel will have more PCI-e lanes and maybe even OpenCL 2.0 support for shared memory in the firmware.

The Quadro cards were nearly usless. The GTX 460 performed better but was highly unstable in Vegas. The R9-290X has provided more of a boost than adding 2 more CPU cores with the processor upgrade! This card is awesome and performs spectacularly in Vegas previews (I don't care about render times). The only problem is that I am now on my 3rd card since December. The first one displayed artifacts on the screen and the next one died after 2 weeks. I just got the new one today and am testing it now. No one else online have reported problems like this so I think I just got unlucky with a couple of lemons.

The crazy thing is that I do not do video editing for a profession. I built this rig as a hobby, primarily for home videos of my family :)

Current System: Intel i7 4930K OC'd to 4.6 GHz| Asus P9X79 Deluxe | 32GB RAM | AMD R9-290X w/8GB RAM | OCZ Revo 480 GB PCI Express SSD | Windows 7 64 bit | Vegas Pro 12 (64)


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