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I would like to increase my Rendering Speed, it seems pretty low to me

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Dante Colt
I would like to increase my Rendering Speed, it seems pretty low to me
on Jan 29, 2015 at 10:38:54 am

Hello Community! :)

First off, i usually google everything myself, and the amounts of time i landed on this page, and always saw very nice people & answers just amazed me, so this is my first time creating an account for a Forum! :).

Like i already said, i seem not to find an direct answer for my question (i tried google).

I / we create Videos for Youtube and i have been wondering now for a long time, how i could improve my Rendering Speed to be more efficient for our Subscribers.

Render Settings:

Notes: Use this setting to create an MP4 (AVC/AAC) file for progressive internet downloads.

Format: Audio: 384 Kbps; 48.000 Hz; 16 Bit; Stereo; AAC
Video: 30 fps; 1920x1080 Progressive; YUV; 12 Mbps
Pixel Aspect Ratio: 1,000

Frame Size: HD 1080 (1920x1080)
Profile: High
Framerate: 30,000000
Variable Bit Rate:
Maximum bps 30.000.000
Average bps 12.000.000
Number of Slices 4 (should i increase that? I don't quite know what it means)

My PC

Geforce GTX 970
Intel I-7 4790k 4GHZ-4.4GHZ
16GB ram


If my video is like 45 minutes long i need 1 Hour and 50 minutes to render it (using CPU)
My Gefore has Cuda and i could render with my Geforce, but both have exactly the same speed (i don't know why either)


I know there are insane workstations out there, but i thought my PC is really strong and i was hoping to Render faster as i am know :(.

Maybe i'm doing something wrong ?



I hope my post meets you guys requirements, i was really amazed how nice all of you seemed.
Sorry for any bad spelling, english is not my native language.

Dante & Holly


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Dave Osbun
Re: I would like to increase my Rendering Speed, it seems pretty low to me
on Jan 29, 2015 at 3:48:35 pm

Your current render speed is normal, and unfortunately the only way to decrease it is to scrap your motherboard and CPU with an Intel Xeon CPU, which will run about $3000ish for the latest and greatest. And your render will only decrease by a small percentage.

Dave


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John Rofrano
Re: I would like to increase my Rendering Speed, it seems pretty low to me
on Jan 29, 2015 at 7:09:37 pm

[Dante Colt] "My Gefore has Cuda and i could render with my Geforce, but both have exactly the same speed (i don't know why either)"
That's because your GPU is too new by Sony standards. If you are using MainConcept AVC, it doesn't support any NVIDIA card made after the GeForce 5xx series. So one thing you can do to speed up renders is to use an older GPU.
[Dante Colt] "I know there are insane workstations out there, but i thought my PC is really strong and i was hoping to Render faster as i am know :(."
You have a Quad Core processor. Those were first introduced in 2006 nearly 10 years ago. In 2010 the 6 cores came out. Now people are using 8-Cores and I have a 12-Core. Comparatively, 4-Cores aren't really "strong" machines for tasks like video processing that can be highly parallel. They are really the minimum viable machine. Going from a 4-core to an 8-core really does 1/2 the time it takes render. So if you're really concerned with render speeds.... get more cores!

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Sorin Nicu
Re: I would like to increase my Rendering Speed, it seems pretty low to me
on Jan 29, 2015 at 10:44:32 pm
Last Edited By Sorin Nicu on Jan 29, 2015 at 11:00:27 pm

Sadly, your brand-new video card is useless in Vegas. Thanks to Sony lack of interest in updating a critical piece of software from December 2010 until now. Basically if your GPU is newer than that date, the MainConcept encoder will not use CUDA.

If you have two PCI-E slots, you could just add another videocard from 400 or 500 generation of GeForce and gain hardware acceleration.
I have used with success a GeForce GTS450, GTX480, a Quadro 2000, a Quadro 6000.

As for your CPU (I7 4790k), don't worry, it blows out of water older Intel 6 cores (including many Xeons) or newer AMD 8 cores...
See here a benchmark:
http://www.cpubenchmark.net/high_end_cpus.html
Search for 4790K - it has a score of 11,249.

What is even sadder is that your CPU has integrated a video encoder that can do hardware accelerated up to (including) 4k encoding.
Same goes for the integrated nvenc hardware in your GTX970!

Sony has no clue how to use those (or no interest), but a small Taiwanese company like CyberLink (PowerDirector13) knows!
You can test drive their software for free 30 days (and maybe post back the results)...


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Norman Black
Re: I would like to increase my Rendering Speed, it seems pretty low to me
on Jan 30, 2015 at 4:34:10 pm

[Sorin Nicu] "Sadly, your brand-new video card is useless in Vegas. Thanks to Sony lack of interest in updating a critical piece of software from December 2010 until now. Basically if your GPU is newer than that date, the MainConcept encoder will not use CUDA."

It is not Sony lack of interest here. To this day, Mainconcept has never updated their AVC GPU encoders to support newer architectures.

Mainconcept hard coded their encoders to specific architectures in both CUDA and OpenCL. They never wrote generic GPU code that would work on anything old and new. It is okay to have optimized versions for specific architectures, but one must always have a generic version that will always work on anything meeting a minimum spec.


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Sorin Nicu
Re: I would like to increase my Rendering Speed, it seems pretty low to me
on Jan 30, 2015 at 5:29:13 pm

[Norman Black] "It is not Sony lack of interest here. To this day, Mainconcept has never updated their AVC GPU encoders to support newer architectures."

So why Sony didn't developed their own encoders to use GPU either? Is lack of interest in investing money, just in taking them.
nVidia and Intel have free SDK's and libraries to build encoders using their hardware. Other companies use those successfully, even the free apps make use of them - maybe they should just hire the guy from Handbrake for example.


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Norman Black
Re: I would like to increase my Rendering Speed, it seems pretty low to me
on Jan 30, 2015 at 6:34:04 pm

[Sorin Nicu] "So why Sony didn't developed their own encoders to use GPU either? Is lack of interest in investing money, just in taking them.
nVidia and Intel have free SDK's and libraries to build encoders using their hardware. Other companies use those successfully, even the free apps make use of them - maybe they should just hire the guy from Handbrake for example.
"


It is uncommon for NLE developers to develop their own encoders. They buy from people like Mainconcept. Even Adobe does this. SCS has developed the Sony AVC encoder.

SCS/Sony has used the Intel QuickSync hardware AVC encoder SDK. The Sony AVC encoder supports this. Maybe SCS will support the Nvidia and/or AMD hardware AVC encoders. I have actually entered a feature request to SCS in this regard. For me this is mostly for temp/text encodes. ALL the hardware encoders, and even the Mainconcept CPU and Sony AVC encoders pale in comparison to x264 in visual quality.

Which brings me to Handbrake. Handbrake, like SCS, supports Quicksync but not Nvidia/AMD. Nobody at Handbrake has ever developed an encoder. They just use open source encoders that are available, which includes x264 for AVC/H.264 encoding. SCS cannot include x264 in Vegas.

I am not an expert in legal issues with GPL, but I believe SCS could write an encoder plug-in for x264 and make that source code available and let us download that. Vegas could remain proprietary. I have even suggested this to SCS.


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Sorin Nicu
Re: I would like to increase my Rendering Speed, it seems pretty low to me
on Jan 30, 2015 at 9:09:29 pm

[Norman Black] "It is uncommon for NLE developers to develop their own encoders."

Just two examples: Cyberlink and Pinnacle (Corel) have their own encoders, based on AMD, nVidia and Intel SDK's.
And even if that was the case, why is not Sony requesting DivX to update the MainConcept encoders? Don't want to pay, that's why.
As for "gpu doesn't match the cpu quality" - that's just something that people say because they assume it has to be true.
Same software algorithms can be run of CPU or on CUDA/OpenCL cores, so the result should be identical.


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Norman Black
Re: I would like to increase my Rendering Speed, it seems pretty low to me
on Jan 31, 2015 at 2:09:49 am
Last Edited By Norman Black on Jan 31, 2015 at 2:30:26 am

[Sorin Nicu] "And even if that was the case, why is not Sony requesting DivX to update the MainConcept encoders? Don't want to pay, that's why.
"


You have proof they have not asked Mainconcept to update support?
"Don't want to pay". You have proof of that?
Mainconcept has changed hands a couple of times in the last handful of years. Not much going on there at all.

[Sorin Nicu] "As for "gpu doesn't match the cpu quality" - that's just something that people say because they assume it has to be true."

This has been documented time and again.

http://compression.ru/video/codec_comparison/h264_2012/

http://www.behardware.com/articles/828-1/h-264-encoding-cpu-vs-gpu-nvidia-c...

A 30 minute video of the primary x264 developer about the problems of GPU encoding. The short story. Video encoding is not a very parallel task and forcing GPU use to get parallelism forces compromises.







[Sorin Nicu] "Same software algorithms can be run of CPU or on CUDA/OpenCL cores, so the result should be identical."

Not really. Watch the video of the x264 developer. The real point is that GPU encoders are designed for speed and they make compromises in their algorithms to get that parallelism and thus speed on GPU.

Even within the same company like Mainconcept, the CPU encoder has better quality than either the OpenCL or CUDA encoders.

Of course it has to be said time and again. At high bitrates most all encoder look the same even though the SSIM and/or PSNR will be different. As one lowers the bitrate the best encoders start to shine.

Many think that GPUs are somehow faster because of all the GPU support things being done and the speed that can be gained. GPUs are *MUCH* slower than CPUs. What a GPU has is massive parallelism, and if and only if, an algorithm can map to the parallelism in an advantageous manner does one get the speed.

Image editing tasks like effects in Vegas are an obvious item that is typically very parallel.


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Sorin Nicu
Re: I would like to increase my Rendering Speed, it seems pretty low to me
on Jan 31, 2015 at 4:36:53 pm
Last Edited By Sorin Nicu on Jan 31, 2015 at 4:43:57 pm

[Norman Black] "story. Video encoding is not a very parallel task and forcing GPU use to get parallelism forces compromises."
That's a fallacy. You have a data file that has repetitive points that are independent of others (the I-frames). The points between them are not parallelizable easy, but how hard is to read ahead 200-1000 of those blocks (between the I-frames) and give them to the GPU cores to work in parallel on them?
Actually parallelism works for 2, 4, 6, 12 CPU's, why you assume that won't work in higher numbers for GPU's?

CUDA encoding was different from beginning, is basically C++ programming running on different processors. The fact that nVidia didn't get it perfect in 2011 is irrelevant today, they updated the CUDA encoder constantly until 2014.
Only Sony is stuck in 2010 and that was my original comment.

Also, since 2014 the quality of included encoders in intel Hashwell and nVidia Maxwell (2nd gen) focused on quality.
Assuming that "GPU encoding is bad" just because cause in 2102 a certain OpenCL implementation sucked is just not OK.


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Dante Colt
Re: I would like to increase my Rendering Speed, it seems pretty low to me
on Jan 30, 2015 at 12:55:42 am
Last Edited By Dante Colt on Jan 30, 2015 at 12:57:12 am

I hope the way i'm replying, reaches all 3 of you :).

Thank you so much for the fast response & especially how far into detail you guys went.

Now i know a lot more and where to focus on.

I don't really want to try another programm as suggested, it took me a long time to self teach me Sony Vegas. At this point i don't feel like learning again from scratch in another programm :D.

I really want to say this again, i think you are a really nice Forum. Kind & Informative, that's atleast for me a rare thing to find nowadays and also it's important to point positive things out!
So thank you very much.

My last question would be:
The way i render my videos, with named settings. Is that the best i can do ? Quality & File Size wise ?

Or would you recommend me another "preset" to render with.

I really love quality, but i only have a 16.000 Speed Internet, so usually my videos are around 6GB big and it takes me 5-6 hours to Upload.

I would love to decrese the File-Size but not lose quality. "Barely noticable quality drop, i would be ok with, if it means saving 1GB in Size".


I hope that was understandable :/

Dante & Holly


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John Rofrano
Re: I would like to increase my Rendering Speed, it seems pretty low to me
on Jan 30, 2015 at 4:29:56 am

[Dante Colt] "The way i render my videos, with named settings. Is that the best i can do ? Quality & File Size wise ?"
The thing that affects file size and quality is bit rate. IMHO your bit rate of 12Mbps is far too high. You could probably lower that to 8Mbps and keep the same quality. Do some tests and see. Lower the bit rate by 1Mbps and render until you perceive quality loss. Then increase it back by 1Mbps and that's your lowest bit rate (and lowest file size) for the quality you expect. You may even get as low as 6Mbps and still like the quality. It all depends on how demanding your source footage is for maintaining details.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Dante Colt
Re: I would like to increase my Rendering Speed, it seems pretty low to me
on Jan 30, 2015 at 5:18:40 am

Well i read on Youtube Help, that they support now up to 50mb quality. If it's true or not i can't say.

May i maybe post you a link of a Video of mine ? (Seriously no advertising purposes, but maybe you can get a better picture of the Quality i upload).

So does the "Maximum Bitrate" matter at all ? As you mentioned the 12mb, which is my average.

Dante & Holly


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John Rofrano
Re: I would like to increase my Rendering Speed, it seems pretty low to me
on Jan 30, 2015 at 12:29:11 pm

[Dante Colt] "Well i read on Youtube Help, that they support now up to 50mb quality. If it's true or not i can't say."
Yes, it's true but what does it matter? You asked how to reduce your file size because your Internet speed is slow. Creating bigger files isn't the answer to your problem.
[Dante Colt] "So does the "Maximum Bitrate" matter at all ? As you mentioned the 12mb, which is my average.
"Yes, the maximum bit rate is the maximum number of bits that can be used for frames that need it. Obviously to conform to the average, if you exceed it in some areas up to the maximum, you must lower it in there areas to maintain the average. It's a way of giving more bits to frames that need it while taking bits away from frames that don't.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Dante Colt
Re: I would like to increase my Rendering Speed, it seems pretty low to me
on Jan 30, 2015 at 2:22:23 pm

Oh i see, okay! :)

Thank you so much! =)


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