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My findings with choppy transitions / fades / dissolves in VP13

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Victor Keys
My findings with choppy transitions / fades / dissolves in VP13
on Jan 19, 2015 at 5:33:52 am

I've been having a problem with transitions / fades / dissolves in Vegas Pro where they are so choppy that they are basically unusable. It would seem to bounce back and forth between the clips that were overlapped. I can only describe it as choppy instead of the smooth fade that should be there. The transitions actually seemed smooth in preview but after rendering they looked horrendous. After racking my brain for weeks and searching the internet high and low for solutions, I came across many people that seemed to have similar problems. But upon trying a few recommendations (disabling GPU being one of them), I came to the conclusion that my problem was somehow different and clearly caused by something else. Then I noticed that some transitions were smooth and other weren't. I was utterly confused and then I had an epiphany. This was only happening when I was creating transitions of pieces of the same video file. When I transitioned two different video files the problem was gone. As a test, I rendered a clip of a video that was part of a transition to a new track and then replaced that original clip with the newly rendered file...then I created the transition again and presto...problem solved. So I did a little experiment. I created a copy of a video file I wanted to edit. I loaded the original and the copy into Vegas. When I did a dynamic RAM preview of a transition of two parts of the original video I got the choppy fade. But when I transitioned one part of the original file with another part of the copy file, the choppy transition was gone...smooth as butter. I suppose this will have to be my workaround for now but my main purpose of this post was to have this information available on the internet for anyone that may be having a similar issue and is going as crazy as I was over it. Aside from that I can only hope that when Vegas Pro 14 comes out, I won't have to deal with this problem anymore.


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Graham Bernard
Re: My findings with choppy transitions / fades / dissolves in VP13
on Jan 19, 2015 at 8:31:03 am

[Victor Keys] "I've been having a problem with transitions / fades / dissolves in Vegas Pro where they are so choppy that they are basically unusable. It would seem to bounce back and forth between the clips that were overlapped."
Victor I can neither repro nor, having just finished a project with a lot FX-ing, register that the transitions are anything but perfect. Sorry....

Do your Project Settings Match your Media? You didn't say.

From what you are saying Vegas IS choking on something. Are you Previewing in BEST? What setting do you have RAM Preview set at?

Hmm.. Nice workaround but maybe you aren't needing it, or better yet, VP13 is doing exactly what it should. Another thing I just thought of, your workaround is forcing/insuring - in a sense - a complete and discreet piece of Media to be used. If Vegas is going to "struggle" it will be with dealing with inter-cut/sliced Events - hence the use of the various Previewing qualities to enable a better FPS. Your workaround kinda proves this, and so, doing an audit of your workflow and general up keep of your PC might assist.

Cheers

Grazie

Video Content Creator and Potter
PC 7 64-bit 16gb * Intel® Core™i7-2600k Quad Core 3.40GHz * 2GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 560 Ti
Cameras: Canon XF300 + PowerShot SX50HS Bridge


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Victor Keys
Re: My findings with choppy transitions / fades / dissolves in VP13
on Jan 19, 2015 at 4:42:45 pm

Grazie,

Thanks for the reply! I will try to answer your questions as best as I can.

Do your Project Settings Match your Media? You didn't say.


Yes I imported the video and agreed to the pop-up window that asks if you want project setting to match imported media.

From what you are saying Vegas IS choking on something. Are you Previewing in BEST? What setting do you have RAM Preview set at?


I am previewing in Draft(Full) for smoothest playback on my system:
Intel Core i5-2500k CPU @ 3.30GHz
16 GB RAM
Windows 7 64-bit

RAM Preview set to 100 by default...I bumped it to 200 then to 1000 because I could hardly preview anything set to 100 or 200.

I am not only having this issue with RAM preview. It is also happening on actual render output too. I have also tried rendering with different codecs with no luck.


Hmm.. Nice workaround but maybe you aren't needing it, or better yet, VP13 is doing exactly what it should. Another thing I just thought of, your workaround is forcing/insuring - in a sense - a complete and discreet piece of Media to be used. If Vegas is going to "struggle" it will be with dealing with inter-cut/sliced Events - hence the use of the various Previewing qualities to enable a better FPS. Your workaround kinda proves this, and so, doing an audit of your workflow and general up keep of your PC might assist.


What sort of improvements to workflow or PC upkeep could you suggest?


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Dave Osbun
Re: My findings with choppy transitions / fades / dissolves in VP13
on Jan 19, 2015 at 10:18:52 pm

When I was running Vegas Pro 8 on an older system I used to get 'blips' during basic transitions between two video events. That problem went away after upgrading to a higher performing hard drive (just for the video files). Not saying this is your problem but the throughout of my hard drive was my culprit.

Dave


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Graham Bernard
Re: My findings with choppy transitions / fades / dissolves in VP13
on Jan 20, 2015 at 10:16:52 am

OK, Victor, start auditing your workflow:

1] Don't just rely on the Match when you drop files into timneline. Do a Full check that your Project settings do match your Media.

2] What Media are you using?

3] What Transitions are you using?

4] How much space do you know have on your System and other drives?

5] See my Specs? How do they compare to yours?

6] As you CAN see full fps in Draft and it falters during anything better, this would hint at your specs are needing to be reviewed.

Lastly if you could upload a sample piece of media and your Veg file I'd be happy to test it on my PC. Up to you.

Cheers

Grazie

Video Content Creator and Potter
PC 7 64-bit 16gb * Intel® Core™i7-2600k Quad Core 3.40GHz * 2GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 560 Ti
Cameras: Canon XF300 + PowerShot SX50HS Bridge


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Victor Keys
Re: My findings with choppy transitions / fades / dissolves in VP13
on Jan 24, 2015 at 5:59:09 am

First off, thank you so much to Dave and Grazie especially for taking time out to reply and help me resolve this problem. It's greatly appreciated!!

[Dave Osbun] "When I was running Vegas Pro 8 on an older system I used to get 'blips' during basic transitions between two video events. That problem went away after upgrading to a higher performing hard drive (just for the video files). Not saying this is your problem but the throughout of my hard drive was my culprit."

After reading both of your replies I decided to buy a new USB 3.0 External HDD (4TB Fantom GForce 3) and see what results it gave me. I needed a new drive anyhow so I figured now was a good time to grab one and test it out with Vegas Pro. I wanted to run some more tests before replying so that's why it's been a few days since I'm coming back to this thread.

[Graham Bernard] "OK, Victor, start auditing your workflow:

1] Don't just rely on the Match when you drop files into timneline. Do a Full check that your Project settings do match your Media.


I have done it both ways with same choppy transition result. I probably should have mentioned that.


2] What Media are you using?


Video: 1920x1080x24, 30.000 fps, Alpha = None, Field Order = None (progressive scan), x264vfw - H.264/MPEG-4 AVC Codec

Audio: 44,100 Hz, 16 Bit, Mono, Uncompressed


3] What Transitions are you using?


I've run tests with standard x-fade (overlapping two clips) and also with different Boris Continuum Complete transitions, all with the same results


4] How much space do you know have on your System and other drives?


System drive is 50% full. WD Passport 1TB USB 3.0 external drive was almost entirely full. I had overlooked that the drive being so full could create performance issues so I thought this could def be the cause of the problem hence why I purchased the Fantom 4TB (3.63 useable) GForce 3 drive. I copied some files to this new drive so with my latest tests it has 2.45TB of available space. Still getting the same problems after trying again tonight. I was disappointed that the new drive didn't solve the problem. I really thought that you had pointed out something that I completely overlooked.


5] See my Specs? How do they compare to yours?


My specs vs your specs

Intel Core i5-2500k CPU @ 3.30GHz vs Intel® Core™i7-2600k Quad Core 3.40GHz
16 GB DDR3 RAM vs 16gb
2GB NVidia GeForce GT 630 vs 2GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 560 Ti
Windows 7 64-bit vs PC 7 64-bit


6] As you CAN see full fps in Draft and it falters during anything better, this would hint at your specs are needing to be reviewed."


I mentioned in an earlier post that I use Draft for smoothest playback but after paying closer attention it seems I'm still dropping frames in Draft.

Another thing I just noticed in the Video preview window down in the bottom left is it says: Project: 1920x1080x128, 30.000p. Not sure what the 'x128' means...and my video files are 1920x1080x24...again not sure what the 'x24' represents...I opened the project properties and I'm not seeing any setting for that...maybe you could enlighten me.

Here is a screenshot of my project properties window if that helps at all:


Thanks again for your help and any other insight you could provide!

-Victor


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Graham Bernard
Re: My findings with choppy transitions / fades / dissolves in VP13
on Jan 24, 2015 at 6:30:00 am

Disengage 32-bit Float and return to 8-bit. It would appear that THIS is choking your Dissolves and Transitions throughput.

Cheers

Grazie

Video Content Creator and Potter
PC 7 64-bit 16gb * Intel® Core™i7-2600k Quad Core 3.40GHz * 2GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 560 Ti
Cameras: Canon XF300 + PowerShot SX50HS Bridge


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Victor Keys
Re: My findings with choppy transitions / fades / dissolves in VP13
on Jan 24, 2015 at 7:49:15 am

Thanks for the suggestion. I tried it. Didn't make any difference though.


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Graham Bernard
Re: My findings with choppy transitions / fades / dissolves in VP13
on Jan 24, 2015 at 1:03:18 pm
Last Edited By Graham Bernard on Jan 24, 2015 at 1:03:48 pm

[Victor Keys] " I tried it. Didn't make any difference though."
Understood.

Start over and use some known simple footage and try editing to and from your internal Hard Drive - leave the USB drive alone.

Grazie

Video Content Creator and Potter
PC 7 64-bit 16gb * Intel® Core™i7-2600k Quad Core 3.40GHz * 2GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 560 Ti
Cameras: Canon XF300 + PowerShot SX50HS Bridge


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Victor Keys
Re: My findings with choppy transitions / fades / dissolves in VP13
on Jan 24, 2015 at 9:34:52 pm

Grazie,

I tried editing a very simple clip with little to no motion in the video...did it from my system drive and also from 2 or 3 different USB 3.0 external HDDs (can't remember if I tried the third one or not). Getting the same result on all the different drives. As another test, I downloaded a trial copy of Premiere Pro CC 2014 to compare and am getting the same issue over there. Thoughts??

PS - Don't know if my video card would make the difference but I found an EVGA GeForce GTX 750Ti Superclock w/G-SYNC Support 2GB GDDR5 128bit, Dual-Link DVI-I, HDMI, DP 1.2 Graphics Card on Amazon for $150 with a $20 rebate. I am going to purchase it soon (regardless if this is the issue) because my current card only has 96 cuda cores and the GTX 750Ti has 640 (among other upgraded features).

-Victor


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Graham Bernard
Re: My findings with choppy transitions / fades / dissolves in VP13
on Jan 25, 2015 at 7:16:49 am

[Victor Keys] "Thoughts??"
Victor - yes.... many...

1] It would appear that you have something systemically awry with your system.

2] Video Card selection has become a bit of a needle in haystack search/process. I was truly lucky in that my PC builders were themselves Vegas/NLE enthusiasts and recommended the GTX560ti. Now, there ARE some unfortunate feedback comments on the main SONY Vegas Forum you may wish to fathom-out. I do know/have read that RADEON is now the way to go. As I said, this is a fraught business.

3] I can only applaud you on what you are doing in that you are being focused on your search to allow VP work well. I've used VP from a Windoze Millennium > XP > XP Pro and now on Win7 (I sidestepped VISTA!). On machines that ranged from Pentium III; Dual Cores, QUADIES and through to my latest i7 and now that GTX560ti. At each of these steps and investments (£,£££'s) I've learnt and I now have a rig that is amazingly responsive and allows me to smash through ideas I have, with media and FXs and SFXs and Titling that would HAVE been completely unthinkable, and out of reach for me to use when I first started out 12 years ago.

4] I keep meaning to ask you: Have you all the Windoze Updates? Not just the security patches but things like .NET Framework. This last set of systems are essential for VP13 (VP12?) to work neatly.

Recap? - You'll get there and mostly MOSTLY Vegas ain't the culprit. Your next move needs to be well thought out, with deep research employing people you trust.

Cheers

Graham

Video Content Creator and Potter
PC 7 64-bit 16gb * Intel® Core™i7-2600k Quad Core 3.40GHz * 2GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 560 Ti
Cameras: Canon XF300 + PowerShot SX50HS Bridge


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Victor Keys
Re: My findings with choppy transitions / fades / dissolves in VP13
on Jan 27, 2015 at 5:33:39 pm

[Graham Bernard] "1] It would appear that you have something systemically awry with your system."

Agreed.



[Graham Bernard] "2] Video Card selection has become a bit of a needle in haystack search/process. I was truly lucky in that my PC builders were themselves Vegas/NLE enthusiasts and recommended the GTX560ti. Now, there ARE some unfortunate feedback comments on the main SONY Vegas Forum you may wish to fathom-out. I do know/have read that RADEON is now the way to go. As I said, this is a fraught business."

I've spent days on end researching this and have learned a great deal about NVidia cards...such as it's not all about # of CUDA cores...memory interface width and memory bandwidth are equally important...the GTX560ti is a Fermi-based card and Fermi is supposedly far superior for editing then the newer Kepler-based cards (GTX6xx series)...apparently NVidia put a huge focus on gaming on the Kepler cards and benchmarks show they are terrible for video editing...now the recently released the Maxwell-based cards and these blow away both Fermi and Kepler cards...the GTX 750 ti uses Maxwell technology which makes it so attractive especially at < $150. And my friend who has a media studio has been on my case to make the switch over to Premiere Pro(hence me checking out the trial version) so I want to stick with NVidia and CUDA cored technology which Premiere Pro uses.

This article, although based on Premiere, has a huge amount of information that is great to know about video cards (specifically NVidia): http://www.studio1productions.com/Articles/PremiereCS5.htm

[Graham Bernard] "3] I can only applaud you on what you are doing in that you are being focused on your search to allow VP work well. I've used VP from a Windoze Millennium > XP > XP Pro and now on Win7 (I sidestepped VISTA!). On machines that ranged from Pentium III; Dual Cores, QUADIES and through to my latest i7 and now that GTX560ti. At each of these steps and investments (£,£££'s) I've learnt and I now have a rig that is amazingly responsive and allows me to smash through ideas I have, with media and FXs and SFXs and Titling that would HAVE been completely unthinkable, and out of reach for me to use when I first started out 12 years ago."

I have been using Vegas (mostly for audio, few video projects) since Win 2k, and I sidestepped VISTA also haha! Technology has come a long way since then and so has my knowledge of such things. I built my current rig 2 years ago mainly for audio and photography but really started getting back into video last year. I have been having the problem since then but just avoided using dissolves but it's gone on too long. I need to get to the root of the problem. Your guidance has helped me dramatically!!

[Graham Bernard] "4] I keep meaning to ask you: Have you all the Windoze Updates? Not just the security patches but things like .NET Framework. This last set of systems are essential for VP13 (VP12?) to work neatly."

I checked my windows updates and there were several .NET Framework updates among others. Although it still didn't solve the problem, I'm sure it's generally helpful to be up to date with everything. I've also defrag'ed all my drives and cleaned my registry (practices which I often forget to do regularly to keep my PC running at it's best).

[Graham Bernard] "Recap? - You'll get there and mostly MOSTLY Vegas ain't the culprit. Your next move needs to be well thought out, with deep research employing people you trust."

Can you point me in the direction where I may be able to get help with the system now that that has been tracked down as the problem? I will also be doing my own searching on the net for forums, solutions, etc.

Again, thanks for all your time invested in helping out a complete stranger. Hopefully I can pay it forward in the near future!

-Victor


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