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Vegas Option for ProRes 422 (HD)

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Steve Hancock
Vegas Option for ProRes 422 (HD)
on Jan 12, 2015 at 11:59:33 pm

We use Sony Vegas Pro but have to deliver a rendered file in Prores 422 (HD). It's not a situation where we can send them a form of file and they can then re-render in Prores. We actually have to find a way to just give them the finished product in ProRes422 (HD).

Again, we use Sony Vegas Pro. We do not have or use a Mac.

What are our options?

In doing a little research, I found this site: http://www.miraizon.com/products/codecsoverview.html

Don't know if that's an option or not.

Any suggestions would be much appreciated. Thanks.


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Sorin Nicu
Re: Vegas Option for ProRes 422 (HD)
on Jan 13, 2015 at 1:28:10 am
Last Edited By Sorin Nicu on Jan 13, 2015 at 1:28:48 am

I have linked here on forum the same product a while ago. I am interested in it's performance, but for now I don't have the need to shell the $70 for it.

Maybe you can report back here the results, if you decide for it?


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John Rofrano
Re: Vegas Option for ProRes 422 (HD)
on Jan 13, 2015 at 12:28:18 pm

[Steve Hancock] "In doing a little research, I found this site: http://www.miraizon.com/products/codecsoverview.html
Don't know if that's an option or not. "
ProRes hacks for the PC like Miraizon are not "real" ProRes. They perform extremely poorly on a Mac and it's pretty obvious when someone gives you one that it wasn't generated with Apple's codec and it will need to be re-encoded to be worked with properly on a Mac. Trust me, your client will have issues and it won't bode well for your business. There is no way to create an Apple ProRes file on a PC.

If you're a professional and you need to deliver ProRes 422 HD you need to buy a Mac.

You can get a Mac mini for $499 and Apple Compressor for $50 and have a ProRes encoding station rather cheaply. In fact, you can buy a used Mac mini on eBay for about $150 - $200 these days. When you add $50 for Apple Compressor to that, for $200 - $250 you can create ProRes files for your clients.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Steve Hancock
Re: Vegas Option for ProRes 422 (HD)
on Jan 13, 2015 at 5:33:01 pm

Thanks a lot for the info John.

I know someone who has a Mac Laptop. Would we be able to use that for our purposes? If so, what would be the first steps? I'm completely Mac ignorant.


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John Rofrano
Re: Vegas Option for ProRes 422 (HD)
on Jan 14, 2015 at 12:16:55 pm
Last Edited By John Rofrano on Jan 14, 2015 at 12:21:11 pm

[Steve Hancock] "I know someone who has a Mac Laptop. Would we be able to use that for our purposes? If so, what would be the first steps? I'm completely Mac ignorant."
Yes. They would need to own either Final Cur Pro X, Apple Compressor 4, or Apple Motion 5. ProRess is not free. It does not "come with the Mac". It's a professional digital intermediary codec that only ships with Apples professional video editing software. That's why it doesn't exist on the PC. There is no Apple video software for the PC to ship it with. You can't buy it standalone on a Mac or a PC.

The cheapest way to get the ProRes codec is to buy Apple Compressor 4 for $49. So your friend with the laptop would need to go to the Apple App Store and buy Compressor and then they could convert your footage to ProRes using Compressor. They just drop the video file in Compressor, select the appropriate ProRess 422 HD template, and press "Start Batch". It's that simple.

I did take a quick look at ASSIMILATE SCRATCH and SCRATCH Lab v8 for the PC. It looks promising. If it's really licensed from Apple and optimized for FCP then it might work well. I haven't had anyone give me one of these files so I don't know but I've personally experienced the slow down with the hacked ProRes codecs from the PC and they are horrible.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Sorin Nicu
Re: Vegas Option for ProRes 422 (HD)
on Jan 14, 2015 at 4:20:20 pm

On the other hand, editing and then converting any other video format into ProRes will not improve the edit quality, it will still be a "hack". Same for DNxHD or CineForm codecs - they have to be used during production, not just at delivery.

PS: There are also cameras that shoot directly into ProRes format but those are not cheap consumer type - Arri, Blackmagic, Atomos...


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Steve Hancock
Re: Vegas Option for ProRes 422 (HD)
on Feb 9, 2015 at 2:06:21 am

Okay, here is the latest.
We now have access to a Mac Laptop and we have Apple compressor 4.1, but just wanted to clarify something. The files we work with are .mxf in Sony Vegas. Would our best, most uncompressed way to render for ProRes 422 HQ be to first render the whole project in Sony Vegas as .mxf, and then to run that through Compressor?


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John Rofrano
Re: Vegas Option for ProRes 422 (HD)
on Feb 9, 2015 at 1:34:19 pm

[Steve Hancock] "Would our best, most uncompressed way to render for ProRes 422 HQ be to first render the whole project in Sony Vegas as .mxf, and then to run that through Compressor?"
Yes, I would render out of Vegas Pro using Sony MXF HD422 1920x1080-60i 50 Mbps template (if you are NTSC otherwise use the PAL 50i template) and drop that into Compressor and select the ProRes HQ template.

BTW, Sony MXF is one of the formats that Vegas Pro will "smart render" so if your source is MXF and there are no FX or crops applied, and it matches your output format Vegas Pro will just copy the source to the target with no recompression (i.e., no loss in quality).

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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PJ Steve
Re: Vegas Option for ProRes 422 (HD)
on Apr 12, 2015 at 9:56:21 pm

Can you explain why when we rendered in ProRes after rendering .mxf, the format of sound ended up being dual mono instead of stereo?


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PJ Steve
Re: Vegas Option for ProRes 422 (HD)
on Apr 12, 2015 at 10:37:00 pm

So, what I did was render to .mxf (native) and then rendered through prores, but when our distributor tried to upload the file it read as "dual mono" instead of "stereo." Any hints on why that could happen?


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Steve Hancock
Re: Vegas Option for ProRes 422 (HD)
on Apr 12, 2015 at 11:16:09 pm

Continued with this topic - We were able to render as prores, but the distributor is saying that they can't accept it because it is coming through as dual mono instead of stereo.

When rendered .mxf it appeared to be set as stereo. Could the issue be the render through ProRes? Any ideas ?


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Steve Hancock
Re: Vegas Option for ProRes 422 (HD)
on Apr 13, 2015 at 3:59:41 am

Sorry for the multiple posts. Had an issue with posting.


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Aaron Star
Re: Vegas Option for ProRes 422 (HD)
on Apr 13, 2015 at 8:51:41 am
Last Edited By Aaron Star on Apr 13, 2015 at 9:01:45 am

If you rendered to xdcam422, it is most likely a problem with the Apple software reading the file. XDCAM422 is a pro codec that has 8 discrete audio channels. Channels 1 and 2 are normally the stereo recording. Final Cut, with the Sony extensions would most likely understand the file format properly.

FFMPEG supports renders to Prores and HQ.


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John Rofrano
Re: Vegas Option for ProRes 422 (HD)
on Apr 13, 2015 at 8:28:57 pm

[Aaron Star] "it is most likely a problem with the Apple software reading the file. "
More than likely it's a problem with the "hacked" PC software that created the file because you cannot "legally" encode ProRes on a PC.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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John Rofrano
Re: Vegas Option for ProRes 422 (HD)
on Apr 13, 2015 at 8:28:03 pm

[Steve Hancock] "Continued with this topic - We were able to render as prores, but the distributor is saying that they can't accept it because it is coming through as dual mono instead of stereo. "
Did you read my posts? You can't render "real" ProRes on a PC. Apple has not licensed ProRes for the PC. Any hacks are just that... "hacks". The distributor can tell it's not real ProRes because... it's not.

If you need to render to ProRes you need to buy a Mac.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Steve Hancock
Re: Vegas Option for ProRes 422 (HD)
on Apr 13, 2015 at 8:42:21 pm

We didn't render the Prores on a PC.

We now have access to a Mac Laptop and we got Apple compressor 4.1.
We rendered the files as .mxf in Sony Vegas and then ran that through Compressor on the Mac laptop to get the prores render.

It all seemed to work fine, but the distributer is saying we have an audio issue. The audio needs to be Stereo, but they're receiving the prores file as dual mono.

Is there something we would need to do when using Apple Compressor to make sure the audio comes out stereo when doing ProRes?


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John Rofrano
Re: Vegas Option for ProRes 422 (HD)
on Apr 13, 2015 at 11:04:08 pm

[Steve Hancock] "Is there something we would need to do when using Apple Compressor to make sure the audio comes out stereo when doing ProRes?"
What are the Audio settings on the ProRes template? The default is "Copy audio tracks from source". The other option is to uncheck that and manually select Channel layout: Stereo (L R). That should guarantee stereo output.



~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Aaron Star
Re: Vegas Option for ProRes 422 (HD)
on Apr 14, 2015 at 1:02:09 am

Calm down John Rofrano. No one said he rendered Prores on the PC. He said he rendered XDCAM on the PC, then took that file to the Mac and was having issue.

Apple has its share of bugs just like every company on the planet. The only reason the distributor can tell the encoder is because the meta in the file header. FFMPEG is not going to allow that to be changed for legal reasons. Prores is not Apple magic, it just a codec that has apple labeling, and they protect it with a whole bunch of lawyers. I was only trying to say that the XDCAM format may not be that compatible with such low end software. Upgrading to Final Cut with the Sony file extensions may solve the problem.

I was not belittling your people.


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John Rofrano
Re: Vegas Option for ProRes 422 (HD)
on Apr 14, 2015 at 12:03:44 pm

Sorry, I thought he had created the ProRes file on the PC. I have him suggestions on what Compressor settings try on the Mac.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Steve Hancock
Re: Vegas Option for ProRes 422 (HD)
on Apr 14, 2015 at 6:45:56 pm

Thanks a lot John! I think this is probably were we screwed up. We're just a bit ignorant with compressor right now and couldn't quite figure it out.
We'll update how things turn out. Thanks again!


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John Rofrano
Re: Vegas Option for ProRes 422 (HD)
on Apr 14, 2015 at 11:38:21 pm

You're welcome. Let us know if it fixes the problem for you (it should).

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Steve Hancock
Re: Vegas Option for ProRes 422 (HD)
on Apr 20, 2015 at 4:38:50 am

When the audio options on prores are two mono channels, is it correct to choose one as left and one as right? Will that give me stereo? It claims my .mxf file is Linear PCM stereo


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John Rofrano
Re: Vegas Option for ProRes 422 (HD)
on Apr 20, 2015 at 11:46:25 am

[Steve Hancock] "When the audio options on prores are two mono channels, is it correct to choose one as left and one as right? Will that give me stereo?"
It depends... you will only get stereo if what was recorded was stereo separated into two mono channels. Many camera operators (including myself) record different audio on each channel (perhaps a shotgun mic and direct feed from a mixing desk) so it really is dual mono and not a stereo signal.

If, however, the audio was stereo output from a render that was recorded as separate mono channels then combining the channels as a stereo pair will result in a stereo signal. Also keep in mind, that if the dual mono was rendered as the same mono signal on each channel (i.e., the stereo was combined to mono for each) then you will not get stereo because the independent signals were combined during render and cannot be separated again.

In other words, Yes you can assign two mono channels as Left and Right stereo but you will only hear stereo if what was recorded was originally stereo that was independently separated into two mono channels.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Steve Hancock
Re: Vegas Option for ProRes 422 (HD)
on Apr 21, 2015 at 3:17:43 am

We're still having some issues.

We are trying to render our .mxf files on Sony Vegas to give us stereo, so that we can put it through Compression and get ProRes 422 in stereo.
We tried it and the files don't give us stereo.
When we try to create stereo by choosing one left and one right, it's not correct either. Our distributor says this: You are putting the left and right channels in two different tracks. On your timeline, you should have it this way (one track for the left and one for the right with each faded to the far side), but when you render it out, you have to pick "Stereo Pair" so it combines these two different tracks into one in the pro-res file.
However, I never have a Stereo Pair option.
Any idea what are we doing wrong?


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Steve Hancock
Re: Vegas Option for ProRes 422 (HD)
on Apr 22, 2015 at 2:32:55 am

Does that make sense? Any thoughts?


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John Rofrano
Re: Vegas Option for ProRes 422 (HD)
on Apr 22, 2015 at 12:22:32 pm

How are you rendering out of Vegas Pro? What template are you using? Are you specifically selecting dual mono audio from buses when you render? This needs to be corrected in Vegas Pro. If you'd like to upload a small MXF file from Vegas Proto the COW I'd be happy to take a look at it and see what it looks like on my Mac.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Steve Hancock
Re: Vegas Option for ProRes 422 (HD)
on Apr 22, 2015 at 9:51:17 pm

Here's an image of the Sony Render Settings we're using.


If you'd like I can give you a dropbox link to a 1 minute render if that would be helpful.

Thanks


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Steve Hancock
Re: Vegas Option for ProRes 422 (HD)
on Apr 23, 2015 at 7:42:10 pm

Let me know if this is helpful or if you need something else. Thanks a lot


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Steve Hancock
Re: Vegas Option for ProRes 422 (HD)
on Apr 25, 2015 at 1:17:31 am

Let me know if the image is enough or if you need more. Thanks!


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Steve Hancock
Re: Vegas Option for ProRes 422 (HD)
on Apr 26, 2015 at 5:47:02 pm

Would it be easier if we uploaded a small rendered MXF file here or would dropbox be better for you?
And any thoughts on the template we're using? I uploaded a picture.
Thanks again for all of your help.


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Steve Hancock
Re: Vegas Option for ProRes 422 (HD)
on Apr 30, 2015 at 4:48:53 pm

Okay, I think we finally got it figured out. It seems like it's just a matter of us figuring out the Mac layout more than anything else.
It turns out there is a little blue icon at the top right of the compressor that we have to select to bring up the audio options. We had no idea as the blue icon is very small and not labeled, so we had to do some searching to figure out that was what we needed to select.
Once that is selected the audio options open up and the first thing that has to be done is to de-select the option to automatically render the audio settings from the original file. Once that is unchecked, the stereo options become available and can be selected.

I looks like it's all set now. Finally! Thanks a lot for you help. Hopefully this thread will be helpful to someone else down the road as well. I'll check back if any other issues occur.

Thanks again!


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John Rofrano
Re: Vegas Option for ProRes 422 (HD)
on May 10, 2015 at 2:03:56 pm

Sorry I never got back to you. I got really busy on a project and wasn't keeping up with the forums or email. I'm glad you got it all sorted out. I don't know why Compressor's default view is to close the two side windows because that's the first thing I open up and keep open all the time. Without the settings panel open you really don't know what you're getting so I'm surprised you can even hide it but, I guess that was your problem,

That Vegas Pro template you posted was fine so I was thinking it must be something on the Mac side. Glad you figure it out.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Norman Black
Re: Vegas Option for ProRes 422 (HD)
on Apr 14, 2015 at 3:11:39 am

[John Rofrano] "You can't render "real" ProRes on a PC. Apple has not licensed ProRes for the PC. Any hacks are just that... "hacks". The distributor can tell it's not real ProRes because... it's not.
"


By that logic x264 does not generate proper AVC/H.264 since it is not x264 licensed by the MPEG group. Same can be said of the LAME MP3 encoder. Are files encoded by these "real".

Prores is a trivial codec. It is simple DCT based I-frame encoding. This is very much like JPEG images are DCT based. Same general principles. Just a more modern specification. The same thing can be said of DNxHD and Prores is kinda a mirror of much DNxHD.

The video stream cannot be identified as non Apple but the encoder metadata can.


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John Rofrano
Re: Vegas Option for ProRes 422 (HD)
on Apr 14, 2015 at 12:10:14 pm

[Norman Black] "By that logic x264 does not generate proper AVC/H.264 since it is not x264 licensed by the MPEG group. Same can be said of the LAME MP3 encoder. Are files encoded by these "real"."
Yes, this is exactly why x264 has problems with Sony Vegas. That's great example. Vegas has no problems with proper AVC/H.264 but codecs like DivX, Xvid, x264, etc, cause problems. Why is that? They must not be "the same" as AVC/H.264.
[Norman Black] "The video stream cannot be identified as non Apple but the encoder metadata can."
Actually it can be identified because ProRes files created on a PC perform extremely poorly in FCP. It's pretty obvious when someone gives you one of these so however trivial you think it might be, they haven't gotten it quiet right yet.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Philippe Orlando
Re: Vegas Option for ProRes 422 (HD)
on Apr 30, 2015 at 1:18:25 pm

If I buy the Samsung NX1, that shoots in H265, what would be the best codec to use to edit it in Vegas?
Obviously not Prores.
Should I convert the footage into DNxHD or something else?
Thanks
Philippe



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madison paige
Re: Vegas Option for ProRes 422 (HD)
on Jul 11, 2015 at 1:14:32 am

UGH. I bought the compressor. I rendered my Vegas 12 file out to the previously described codec (MXF HS 422 60i 50 Mbps) and when I open Compressor to pull the file in (which is 1.16 GB, BTW) it's greyed out and shows a EXEC in green in the upper left corner. HELP!!! I'm desperate.


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John Rofrano
Re: Vegas Option for ProRes 422 (HD)
on Jul 11, 2015 at 11:26:40 am

Can you post a screen shot? It's difficult to understand without seeing what you're seeing.



~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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