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OK. So, what's Sony Vegas lacking?

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Ron Whitaker
OK. So, what's Sony Vegas lacking?
on Jan 1, 2015 at 11:34:36 pm

Earlier today I was over at the Cinema5D website and reading through this forum thread.

Someone had asked the infamous which-editing-software question, and received a lot of responses.

Vegas came up in some of the responses, and here are some of them:

  • "I actually started with Sony Vegas but find it extremely limiting and not very transparent although quite intuitive."
  • "I tried Vegas but it didn't cut it."
  • "For someone who is completely new to video I would suggest sony vegas, really easy to learn, but there are definitely better things out there."
  • "Sony Vegas is a great place to start but lacks more advanced features."
  • "I would like to say you that Sony models Las Vegas: is a fantastic starting point but does not have more innovative functions."


By reading through the thread, I got the feeling that there were a lot of Premiere users.

So, my question is: what is Vegas (supposedly) lacking that the "big boys" got?


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Kelly Griffin
Re: OK. So, what's Sony Vegas lacking?
on Jan 2, 2015 at 1:18:40 am

Sure beats the hell outta me. I've been editing on various systems for 25 years and I think it's pretty amazing.

There are a few things that I would have conceived differently, but I don't know what anyone's talking about if they're describing it as anything less than a frontline, professional, workhorse video toolkit.

--Kelly


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Steve Rhoden
Re: OK. So, what's Sony Vegas lacking?
on Jan 2, 2015 at 5:18:26 am
Last Edited By Steve Rhoden on Jan 2, 2015 at 5:19:52 am

It aint lacking a thing Ron. And if one takes a good look, most of those
high end plugins available for After effects etc, are now likewise available
as a plugin for Sony Vegas.
Those that continue this nonsense rant, has no idea of the true capabilities
of Sony Vegas.

Steve Rhoden (Cow Leader)
Film Maker & VFX Artist.
Owner of Filmex Creative Media.
Samples of my Work and Company can be seen here:
http://www.facebook.com/FilmexCreativeMedia


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John Rofrano
Re: OK. So, what's Sony Vegas lacking?
on Jan 2, 2015 at 5:59:57 am

[Ron Whitaker] "So, my question is: what is Vegas (supposedly) lacking that the "big boys" got?"
Well, I don't know what those people thought was lacking but this would be my list of improvements:
  • Media management is a big missing piece. When you've got hundreds of shots to select from, you need to be able to log and tag and annotate every piece of media so that you can find it later. Other NLE's have a great system for tagging media and skimming media. I also like the whole Library concept from Final Cut Pro X. It makes it very easy to manage your media and move it across workstations or archive it.

  • Collaboration: There is no notion of multiple editors working on a project in a LAN environment with the assets on a shared drive. Vegas Pro is primarily targeted at the lone editor. The fact that Vegas Pro requires write access to a drive to create it's .slk and other files that it scatters all over prevents using it on a read-only drive on a LAN.

  • Updated FX: Honestly, the Chroma Keyer is 12 years old!!!! Sony has done nothing to update the video FX after all those years and there is much better technology available today in other NLE's.

  • A good Titler. The last attempt to add a titler was ProType which looks like it came from outer space. I was convinced that Sony bought it from another company and just bolted it on because it looks so different from the rest of Vegas Pro but it was actually designed in house which shows that no one is leading the development team. IMHO, that should never have been released like that.

  • Better support for Non-Sony cameras. Honestly, the GoPro is infinitely popular. You would think that Sony would make sure that Vegas Pro can ingest GoPro 4 Black footage without any problems but it cannot. It took 2 version releases before Vegas Pro could work well natively with DSLR footage. Being able to ingest camera footage should be a top priority for any NLE.

  • External Audio Sync: Lots of people are working with DSLR's and external Audio recorders. Other NLE's like Final Cut Pro X can automatically sync video and external audio files. With Vegas Pro you need to buy a 3rd party app. BTW, when you sync audio in FCP X it behaves just like the original single clip, not as two separate clips.

  • Background Rendering: Other NLE's like FCP X will background render transitions and FX that slow down playback so that you always get full frame rates during editing. Vegas Pro doesn't do this which causes people to complain about choppy playback when editing. That means other NLE's have a smoother editing experience. Think of how nice it would be if Vegas Pro saved your RAM previews and re-used them! That's what other NLE's effectively do with background render.

  • Compound Clips / Nested Sequences: Yes, I know Vegas Pro has nested projects but it's not the same because they have their own media pools so you can't easily take something from a project and nest it. Being able to take a collection of clips and make one compound clip out of them in the same project is a lot nicer implementation.

  • Being able to have two FX windows open at the same time. I don't know how many times I've had to take a snapshot of the screen and keep it on a second monitor so that I could open another FX window and set it to the same settings. Other NLE's happily allow you to open more than one FX at a time and copy between them. This is especially critical when mastering audio and you want to see the compressor and EQ open at the same time. Vegas Pro can't do this simple task but other NLE's can.

  • Content: Some NLE's come with high quality lower thirds and backgrounds and other content that makes editing faster. Vegas Pro has nothing like this. Everything must be made from scratch or bought from a 3rd party.

That doesn't take into account features like skimming or dynamic preview of FX, or magnetic storylines, or connected clips, etc. Like I said, I don't know what others on that forum though was lacking but if you start using other NLE's you'll start making your own list. ;-)

Don't get me wrong. Vegas Pro has a lot of capabilities that other NLE's don't (like buses, sends, etc.) but you asked what was missing so I gave you my list.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Sorin Nicu
Re: OK. So, what's Sony Vegas lacking?
on Jan 2, 2015 at 1:55:09 pm
Last Edited By Sorin Nicu on Jan 2, 2015 at 1:56:55 pm

My experience is not even close to John's, but this is my take:

Basically Sony Vegas is still tied to it's single user, audio editing oriented concepts.
It is fine for an one-man-band, but not so efficient for a company that requires collaboration and division of work.

DaVinci Resolve and Fusion are examples of software promoting collaboration inside a company.

You cannot really compare apples with oranges.


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John Rofrano
Re: OK. So, what's Sony Vegas lacking?
on Jan 2, 2015 at 2:01:36 pm

[Sorin Nicu] "It is fine for an one-man-band, but not so efficient for a company that requires collaboration and division of work."
Yea, it's important to note that if you are a lone editor, shooting single day events, using a Sony camera, Vegas Pro lacks nothing. ;-)

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Dave Turnidge
Re: OK. So, what's Sony Vegas lacking?
on Jan 2, 2015 at 3:16:38 pm

"if you are a lone editor, shooting single day events, using a Sony camera, Vegas Pro lacks nothing"

Actually, I guess ignorance is bliss. I am a lone editor, shoot single day events, using a Canon camera - OOOooooppps... - Well, I'm still able to do everything I need.

OTOH, I know that I don't know a lot, and I don't know what I don't know...so I will be grateful and continue in my ignorance - and look for that "bliss" thing... :-)

Thank you ALL for the questions that are asked and for those who take their valuable time to answer. I wish you all a wonderful New Year, filled with the blessings of God!


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John Rofrano
Re: OK. So, what's Sony Vegas lacking?
on Jan 2, 2015 at 5:19:49 pm

[Dave Turnidge] "Actually, I guess ignorance is bliss. I am a lone editor, shoot single day events, using a Canon camera - OOOooooppps... - Well, I'm still able to do everything I need."
Actually for the most part, I fit into that category myself. I was shooting concert performances with my Sony Z1U HDV camera because my clients only wanted DVD's so I never had a need for any of this "DSLR / 60p / 4K" stuff that is hanging everyone up in Vegas Pro.

Ron mentioned the "big boys" in his post and I take that to mean "large productions" and "latest equipment" so I pointed out why other NLE's might be a better choice for collaborative large productions using the latest gear. I assume most of the Vegas Pro customer base are single independent editors like ourselves.

It's probably also important to point out that the "big boys" are primarily using Mac's and exchanging ProRes files and Vegas Pro is the only NLE that requires a PC (Premiere Pro, Avid, and Final Cut Pro X all run on Mac OS X) so that's also probably s large part of why it doesn't have greater penetration with the "big boys". The cost of switching platforms is prohibitive so Vegas Pro isn't even considered.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Ron Whitaker
Re: OK. So, what's Sony Vegas lacking?
on Jan 3, 2015 at 9:57:00 pm

Actually, when I mentioned the "big boys," I was referring to the "big" editing tools: Avid, Premiere, FCP.


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John Rofrano
Re: OK. So, what\'s Sony Vegas lacking?
on Jan 4, 2015 at 2:39:53 am

[Ron Whitaker] \"Actually, when I mentioned the \"big boys,\" I was referring to the \"big\" editing tools: Avid, Premiere, FCP.\"
Oh I see... well the last version of Premiere Pro I have is CS6 and I\'ve read that CC is a lot better so it wouldn\'t be fair to judge Vegas Pro against CS6 I guess. I\'ve never used Avid so the only one I can compare it to is FCP X and they both have their pluses and minuses. FCP 7 is a lot different than FCP X so there are actually 2 FCP\'s to compare it to and many FCP 7 users are not switching to FCP X because of missing features. lol

Everyone\'s workflow is different so what is a missing feature to one person is an unknown features to another. If Vegas Pro fills the bill for you then why worry about what\'s missing for others?

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Ron Whitaker
Re: OK. So, what\'s Sony Vegas lacking?
on Jan 4, 2015 at 2:51:40 am

The only reason why I posted originally was because I was reading on that forum and thought that it was strange that people were saying that SVP was lacking.

To me, it seems like a great program. Of course there could be improvements. That's so with any program.

But I love SVP and it works for me. I was just curious as to what others would think of those posts from the Cinema5D website.

Lots have responded and they have been helpful.

BTW: have you, by chance, had an opportunity to add the enhancements to the TimeWarp plugin?


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Norman Black
Re: OK. So, what's Sony Vegas lacking?
on Jan 2, 2015 at 8:07:24 pm

[John Rofrano] "Updated FX: Honestly, the Chroma Keyer is 12 years old!!!!"

Yes, certain core functions should be worked on to make them as good as they can be. General grading functions mostly. One can leave the remainder to the aftermarket. Bright, contrast, curves, levels, color, white balance, sharpening and yes, chroma key.

[John Rofrano] "A good Titler. The last attempt to add a titler was ProType which looks like it came from outer space."

Protype actually has a ton of power, especially in keyframing, but is very clunky, and of course no 3D. It seems Sony is leaving the "power" titler to the aftermarket since the most recent thing, Titles&Text, is really targeting the basic quick and dirty text. Sadly, Sony has been ignoring the fonts bugs in T&T.

My power titler of choice is NewBlue Titler Pro.
For quick and dirty I use Legacy text due to the font bugs in Titles and Text.

[John Rofrano] "Background Rendering:"

Sony probably thinks they have this covered with the Vegas selective prerender feature. But that is clunky and leaves droppings behind on your HD. We also have to manually re-prerender with edit changes.

[John Rofrano] "Compound Clips / Nested Sequences"

Again, Sony sits on their arse since they probably think nested projects have them covered.

[John Rofrano] "Better support for Non-Sony cameras. Honestly, the GoPro is infinitely popular."

Don't get me started on the GoPro thing...


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Stephen Mann
Re: OK. So, what's Sony Vegas lacking?
on Jan 3, 2015 at 4:53:22 am

"You would think that Sony would make sure that Vegas Pro can ingest GoPro 4 Black footage without any problems but it cannot."


I must be a Bumblebee because I just drag the mp4 files from my GoPro Hero 4 to the Vegas timeline. I didn't know I was supposed to be having problems.

Steve Mann
MannMade Digital Video
http://www.mmdv.com


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John Rofrano
Re: OK. So, what's Sony Vegas lacking?
on Jan 3, 2015 at 5:04:04 am

[Stephen Mann] "I must be a Bumblebee because I just drag the mp4 files from my GoPro Hero 4 to the Vegas timeline. I didn't know I was supposed to be having problems."
Apparently the Black shoots several different formats and they don't all work properly. I don't have one. I'm just going by what I'm reading in other forums. Lots of people are complaining.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Stephen Mann
Re: OK. So, what's Sony Vegas lacking?
on Jan 3, 2015 at 5:34:19 pm

So far, I've done 4K-30P and 2.7K-60P. Just drop them on the timeline. I have to admit that I am hooked on using proxy files for the rough cuts, but the Hero4 makes them for me - I just have to rename them for Vegas (.sfvp0 suffix) and I have my instant low-res (really low-res) proxies.

Steve Mann
MannMade Digital Video
http://www.mmdv.com


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Ron Whitaker
Re: OK. So, what's Sony Vegas lacking?
on Jan 3, 2015 at 9:58:09 pm

Does Vegas not do well with 4K footage at this point?

What about version 13?


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Malcolm Matusky
Re: OK. So, what's Sony Vegas lacking?
on Jan 7, 2015 at 9:24:00 pm

Not handling double system sound as a "married clip" is my biggest issue with VP13. I'm OK with using plural eyes to synch, but using another instance of VP as a "trim bin" just to be able to keep video and audio in synch is unworkable with large projects. I'm exploring Premiere Pro Cc now and cutting my first short projects on it. Having used VP since V8.0, I am surprised Sony never considered fixing this issue, but as other NLE's handle double system sound better, I may be moving on.

M

Malcolm
http://www.malcolmproductions.com


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David Shirey
Re: OK. So, what's Sony Vegas lacking?
on Jan 2, 2015 at 5:25:56 pm

I guess the fact that it doesn't come bundled with Adobe AfterEffects is a drawback in the industry? For my money what it's lacking is consistency across PC's. I have so many installations of different versions of Vegas on different computers/laptops that have completely different hang-ups from each other. At least in our office the Adobe Premiere installs are consistent in their crashing and render problems :P

As people have always said on these boards, it's the artist, not the tools, so I'll stick with Vegas because I love the interface and the way it lets my editing flow, but it sure would be nice if they could put the kind of resources into software development that Adobe does, although I'll be damned if I pay a subscription for software. Did you guys happen to see the Sony commercial on tv a couple months ago, where it was all about a guy writing a script that gets bought by sony pictures, shot on sony cameras, released in theaters on sony projectors, yadda yadda yadda until some lady sees the movie in a store while shopping for a Sony TV? Sort of a soup to nuts ad about how Sony can do it all. Well the one step they conveniently left out was editing on Sony software and I thought gee wouldn't it be nice if they took enough pride in that division to make it ad-worthy.



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Steve Rhoden
Re: OK. So, what's Sony Vegas lacking?
on Jan 2, 2015 at 6:19:49 pm

Still in the end, its developers needs to take Vegas a lot more serious.

Steve Rhoden (Cow Leader)
Film Maker & VFX Artist.
Owner of Filmex Creative Media.
Samples of my Work and Company can be seen here:
http://www.facebook.com/FilmexCreativeMedia


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Jim Murphy
Re: OK. So, what's Sony Vegas lacking?
on Jan 14, 2015 at 10:17:40 pm

Vegas used to have a decent video stabilizer. I don't need it that much, but I like to have a good one when I need it. The one in VP 12 takes forever, and does not do that good a job. Jim

Vegas Pro 12 DVDA 6 Excalibur 6

Dell 3.4 GHz Intel® 3rd Generation Core™ i7
12GB RAM


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John Rofrano
Re: OK. So, what's Sony Vegas lacking?
on Jan 15, 2015 at 1:46:55 pm

[Jim Murphy] "Vegas used to have a decent video stabilizer. I don't need it that much, but I like to have a good one when I need it. The one in VP 12 takes forever, and does not do that good a job."
That's because it's a generation behind. They licensed the stabilizer from proDAD Mercalli v1 and the v2 stabilizer is much better but obviously proDAD would like you to buy Mercalli v2 instead so while it will do the job in a pinch, if you want better stabilization, get Mercalli.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Sorin Nicu
Re: OK. So, what's Sony Vegas lacking?
on Jan 15, 2015 at 11:47:25 pm

I have also on my PC Cyberlink's PowerDirector 13. It is at least twice as fast at rendering compared to Vegas, uses latest GPU acceleration provided by nVidia, ATI and Intel, not a 4 year old encoder like Vegas.
Sure, it cannot be used for commercial work due to licensing of AVC, but Vegas could take an example from them using latest available software: nVidia with Maxwell 2 and Intel with Haswell can encode h264 up to 4K hardware accelerated!
Also AMD GPU's can use GPU even for Windows Media Video files, not only for H264 encoded files.


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Dave Haynie
Re: OK. So, what's Sony Vegas lacking?
on Jan 17, 2015 at 10:24:24 am

[Sorin Nicu] "I have also on my PC Cyberlink's PowerDirector 13. It is at least twice as fast at rendering compared to Vegas, uses latest GPU acceleration provided by nVidia, ATI and Intel, not a 4 year old encoder like Vegas."

GPGPU acceleration would be much better with Vegas if Main Concept hadn't locked their actual acceleration to GPUs that existed in 2011. That might have been excusable in 2012, but it was certainly not excusable in a 2014 release. Yes, there are quality issues in some cases with GPGPU rendered video vs. CPU rendered, but like other things (8-bit vs 32-bit), those ought to be options for us. They also do not support multiple GPUs.. not sure if that's common yet in the video industry, but it's mandatory in CAD, 3D animation, and of course gaming. And of course, we will need new CODEC support, HEVC and VP9, pretty soon.

[Sorin Nicu] "Also AMD GPU's can use GPU even for Windows Media Video files, not only for H264 encoded files."

It's not the GPU, it's the application. True, GPUs drivers include acceleration for video playback, under the Windows DXVA API, but that's not really useful to an NLE. NLEs are mostly going to benefit from OpenCL acceleration (both faster GPUs and more use of it in the NLE), as well as OpenGL for 3D stuff.

-Dave


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Sorin Nicu
Re: OK. So, what's Sony Vegas lacking?
on Jan 17, 2015 at 2:39:09 pm

For AMD I know that's their encoder. It's using the GPU cores though...

With nvidia, NLE have used CUDA long time before OpenCL was even an option. Cyberlink used the CUDA encoder provided by nvidia and when nvidia changed to the new nvenc (that uses the new hardware block), they adjusted quickly.
They did the same for intel Haswell and the new encoder block.
4K hardware encoding is a premium feature today.

I cannot see why is so hard for Sony to do the same. Are they just "sucking in" the revenue with no actual development?


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Jane Kong
Re: OK. So, what's Sony Vegas lacking?
on Feb 10, 2015 at 8:45:43 am

For Vegas, actually, I prefer adobe premiere. But if vegas can take XAVC natively , that may be a good relief


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John Rofrano
Re: OK. So, what's Sony Vegas lacking?
on Feb 10, 2015 at 12:24:35 pm
Last Edited By John Rofrano on Feb 10, 2015 at 12:39:34 pm

[Jane Kong] "But if vegas can take XAVC natively , that may be a good relief"
If you are asking if Vegas Pro can ingest XAVC and XAVC S the answer is: Yes, it can already do that.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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