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Colour Curves plugins for Vegas pro 12? (for separate colours/channels)

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Blake Gibson
Colour Curves plugins for Vegas pro 12? (for separate colours/channels)
on Nov 22, 2014 at 1:30:09 pm

Hi guys,

I'm wondering if there are any colour curves plugins for vegas that have each channel/colour as a separate box to adjust in (like in premiere/avid etc/after effects)?

I find the way that vegas uses one box and bunches them all together strange and difficult to deal with. For Instance: after adjusting the RGB (luma) curve for exposure etc, and going on to different colours/channels, it remembers the position. Also I can't seem to figure out how to get back to the RGB/luma only curve after adjusting the other colours/channels.

I prefer to have everything in separate boxes so I can tweak perfectly and know it's not changing going between them

I've tried Magic Bullet Looks, and even though it's got separate boxes, you can only use the preset points on the curve and can't go to the very bottom.

Hopefully there's something free out there, but at the moment I can't seem to find anything at all, paid or free!

Thanks for the help!


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Graham Bernard
Re: Colour Curves plugins for Vegas pro 12? (for separate colours/channels)
on Nov 22, 2014 at 3:06:15 pm

Sony Colour Curves allows me to select each colour.

Grazie

Video Content Creator and Potter
PC 7 64-bit 16gb * Intel® Core™i7-2600k Quad Core 3.40GHz * 2GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 560 Ti
Cameras: Canon XF300 + PowerShot SX50HS Bridge


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John Rofrano
Re: Colour Curves plugins for Vegas pro 12? (for separate colours/channels)
on Nov 22, 2014 at 4:24:35 pm

Like Graham said...



It's built-in.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Bob Peterson
Re: Colour Curves plugins for Vegas pro 12? (for separate colours/channels)
on Nov 22, 2014 at 4:57:05 pm

It not only allows you to select each channel, it allows you to copy the settings for one channel to the other two channels. Then, you can make additional changes to the curve for each color. I frequently use this ability to adjust colors like yellow which utilize two of the three color channels set to the same values. It is a very powerful capability built into Vegas.


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Blake Gibson
Re: Colour Curves plugins for Vegas pro 12? (for separate colours/channels)
on Nov 22, 2014 at 5:33:00 pm

Thanks for the replies guys.

Hmmm... I really don't like having the colours start at the same point I set my RGB curve to, I prefer it to start neutral, dead in the middle. I find that when I make a point on the curve is auto adjusts slightly from the RGB point.

Also:

Say I make an S curve to make the image more contrasty, then go to red, play with that, green and blue and play with them and I decide I want less, or more contrast so I go back to RGB to tweak the my S curve (contrast), it has all the colour channels in one box and I can't select the RGB one... it's gone. When I click on the curves it goes onto one of the colours, if I move the curves sometimes the whole curve moves, not just the point I select, it frustrates me.

Also, I can't drag the very top of the curve (highlights) across the top horizontally, only vertically. Likewise with shadows, no vertical, just horizontal.

Do any plugins exist that anyone is aware of that separate the curves in different boxes?


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Blake Gibson
Re: Colour Curves plugins for Vegas pro 12? (for separate colours/channels)
on Nov 22, 2014 at 5:34:33 pm

John Rofrano, in your screenshot example, how do you get back to the RGB/Luma curve to adjust contrast?


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John Rofrano
Re: Colour Curves plugins for Vegas pro 12? (for separate colours/channels)
on Nov 22, 2014 at 7:06:56 pm

[Blake Gibson] "John Rofrano, in your screenshot example, how do you get back to the RGB/Luma curve to adjust contrast?"
All of them adjust the contrast. You can adjust them all together, or each one individually. The RGB settings controls all three color contrasts together. If you select Red and adjust that separately, then the RGB setting controls Green and Blue together. If you then select Green and adjust that separately, then the RGB setting controls nothing because Blue is now also independent. Once you have separated them all out there is no logical way to adjust them together because they all have different curves. The curves can have any number of independent control points. How could you possibly control all 3 after that? Which control point would you use?

My suggestion is that you adjust them all together to get the overall contrast you want and then tweak the individual colors after that. Like I said, once you are separated them out into 3 curves there is no way to adjust them together because that wouldn't make any sense (i.e., they are different and don't have the same control points)

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Graham Bernard
Re: Colour Curves plugins for Vegas pro 12? (for separate colours/channels)
on Nov 22, 2014 at 9:45:45 pm

[John Rofrano] " Like I said, once you are separated them out into 3 curves there is no way to adjust them together because that wouldn't make any sense (i.e., they are different and don't have the same control points)"
Well, having just gave it some "Grazie-Thunk", I added ANOTHER CCurve instance to the chain and with that one I can adjust the pre-adjusted, separate Curves all at once. Would that help?

CCurves with the 3 Colours Adjusted:



EXTRA CCurves with the ALL Colours Adjusted together:


Video Content Creator and Potter
PC 7 64-bit 16gb * Intel® Core™i7-2600k Quad Core 3.40GHz * 2GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 560 Ti
Cameras: Canon XF300 + PowerShot SX50HS Bridge


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Blake Gibson
Re: Colour Curves plugins for Vegas pro 12? (for separate colours/channels)
on Nov 23, 2014 at 2:03:08 am

Graham, how much would adding another curve have an affect on quality at all? I won't matter so much for me for this project because I'm using Prores HQ... but other projects that are less robust, like h264 from DSLR's can't stand up as well and fall apart really easily


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Blake Gibson
Re: Colour Curves plugins for Vegas pro 12? (for separate colours/channels)
on Nov 23, 2014 at 2:00:37 am

John, what I meant was, when I first add a color curves and adjust it does luma only with no colours, that's fine, I can add more contrast, less, whatever. Cool. Then, I go to the other colours and tweak them a bit, from the top down I go: red and adjust that. Then green, oops, the green curve started in the same spot as I left red, not the default straight line. Same with Green and blue....

And if I want to adjust contrast only again without colours, I have to add another instance of curves? I can't get it back...?

I'm not going to lie, that is confusing and convoluted in my eyes. Granted, I'm still learning and don't understand curves fully, but I haven't seen any other NLE's or programs that have the one box for everything. Avid, Premiere, AE, resolve, all have them separately. Which is why I'm hoping there's a plugin that has the separate boxes as I have a project due tonight/tomorrow and I need to make adjustments and I don't have time to try for the learning curve (hehe) of the sony curves.


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John Rofrano
Re: Colour Curves plugins for Vegas pro 12? (for separate colours/channels)
on Nov 23, 2014 at 2:10:25 am

[Blake Gibson] "And if I want to adjust contrast only again without colours, I have to add another instance of curves? I can't get it back...?"
You don't understand what Color Curves is doing. There is no luma control without color! There is a luma control for each color. The default is to control all of the colors at once. Red + Blue + Green = White. So when you adjust them all together you are adjusting what appears to be the white luma but it's really the luma of all the colors combined. Once you decide to adjust one of the colors differently, you have to way of adjusting them all together anymore because you made them different. i.e., the "White Luma Adjustment" no longer exists because it only exists when all three colors use the same curve.

You can certainly add two instances and leave one for overall adjustment of all three colors together and another for separating out the colors. You can also use the Levels plug-in and Color Corrector plug-in. There are lots of ways to changing the luma and color of a video.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Graham Bernard
Re: Colour Curves plugins for Vegas pro 12? (for separate colours/channels)
on Nov 23, 2014 at 6:41:29 am

[John Rofrano] "You don't understand what Color Curves is doing."
Following on from John's comment, Blake, I just found this for you. The INTERNET is great!

https://documentation.apple.com/en/color/usermanual/index.html#chapter=1%26...

Grazie

Video Content Creator and Potter
PC 7 64-bit 16gb * Intel® Core™i7-2600k Quad Core 3.40GHz * 2GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 560 Ti
Cameras: Canon XF300 + PowerShot SX50HS Bridge


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John Rofrano
Re: Colour Curves plugins for Vegas pro 12? (for separate colours/channels)
on Nov 23, 2014 at 11:15:47 am

Good find Graham. That explains how red + green + blue = white.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Mark Barton
Re: Colour Curves plugins for Vegas pro 12? (for separate colours/channels)
on Nov 23, 2014 at 4:48:41 pm

Thanks for that post. I was looking into finally getting around to learning more about the color correction process and this thread had caught my attention. Some more reading material to add to my list!

Thanks!


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Blake Gibson
Re: Colour Curves plugins for Vegas pro 12? (for separate colours/channels)
on Nov 27, 2014 at 6:40:44 am

John: unfortunately I know very little about grading/correction. It's something I'm really hoping to get better at. Thanks for the help.

Graham: that link looks great! Thanks I will read it tonight!


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Nick Hope
Re: Colour Curves plugins for Vegas pro 12? (for separate colours/channels)
on Nov 27, 2014 at 5:31:18 am

Other NLEs and color grading programs have a master RGB curve that can be adjusted separately from the red, green and blue curves within the same instance. Premiere Pro, Colorista, DaVinci Resolve, and even Sony Catalyst all have this. This is one of my biggest wishes for Vegas.

Here's my wishlist for Vegas Pro's color curves:

- much bigger window with a grid
- a diagonal bottom-left-to-top-right guideline
- real numbers on the axes
- live output of coordinates
- the ability to input precise coordinates
- import/export LUT
- ability to change the RGB master curve after "splitting" the individual Red-Green-Blue curves.
- make "Show all channels" default to ON, like it used to in VP10 and earlier

I haven't found any color curves plugins at all for Vegas, and I've looked pretty hard. There's a definite market for someone to write one.



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Graham Bernard
Re: Colour Curves plugins for Vegas pro 12? (for separate colours/channels)
on Nov 27, 2014 at 6:57:27 am

[Nick Hope] " This is one of my biggest wishes for Vegas"
Righto! Will this, above your/our recent experiences with Bugs on the latest Build, make you believe that these improved Colour Curve "feature-set" will happen, anytime soon?

Point being:

EITHER Squishing of Bugs OR New Features to a dormant, unchanged CC Control? Or could it be BOTH? And as you say, not only are there 3rd party options providing a whole fully, rich-range but even now they have their OWN "Catalyst" s/w. Even more reason, IMO, that SCS wont be reviewing Colour Curves anytime soon.

Excellent wishlist Nick.

Grazie

Video Content Creator and Potter
PC 7 64-bit 16gb * Intel® Core™i7-2600k Quad Core 3.40GHz * 2GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 560 Ti
Cameras: Canon XF300 + PowerShot SX50HS Bridge


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Nick Hope
Re: Colour Curves plugins for Vegas pro 12? (for separate colours/channels)
on Nov 27, 2014 at 8:21:43 am

[Grazie] Will this, above your/our recent experiences with Bugs on the latest Build, make you believe that these improved Colour Curve "feature-set" will happen, anytime soon?

No, not at all, but we can hope and pray.



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John Rofrano
Re: Colour Curves plugins for Vegas pro 12? (for separate colours/channels)
on Nov 27, 2014 at 4:23:51 pm

I'd be happy of SCS just fixed the bug in the correct Color Curves that doesn't allow you to change the corner values unless you highlight both of them 2 times. In other words you can't move the top one down until you select the top one, then select the bottom one, then select the top one again, and then you can move it. (very strange bug that drives me nuts)

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Blake Gibson
Re: Colour Curves plugins for Vegas pro 12? (for separate colours/channels)
on Nov 27, 2014 at 11:35:31 pm

John: I can move the top/right/highlights corner point down, as long as I click on it first. I can't just click and drag it down, I have to click, wait, then click and drag. Likewise with the bottom/left/shadows. I don't have to do what you said.

But I can't figure out how move the highlights corner point to the left horizontally along the top, and the shadows corner point to the right horizontally along the bottom


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Blake Gibson
Re: Colour Curves plugins for Vegas pro 12? (for separate colours/channels)
on Nov 27, 2014 at 7:25:03 am

Nick, the only way I've found to use LUTs with Vegas is with magic bullet looks. The new filmconvert lets you export LUTs, however I don't particular know what I would export LUTs for?

I really REALLY like Sony Vegas, it's strange that they don't implement some missing features that are really needed.

I'm just a beginner, still learning so there would be lot's of stuff I am missing from my wish list:

- A good white balance tool
- Good shadows/highlights recovery (like Premiere)
- Native LUT support
- Export to OMF
- 10 bit project/export (Just going off what I see here, it's only 8bit? DNXHD doesn't offer a 36mbps 10 bit export, just 8bit)


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Graham Bernard
Re: Colour Curves plugins for Vegas pro 12? (for separate colours/channels)
on Nov 27, 2014 at 7:59:38 am
Last Edited By Graham Bernard on Nov 27, 2014 at 8:01:04 am

[Blake Gibson] "I really REALLY like Sony Vegas, it's strange that they don't implement some missing features that are really needed."
Apologies for jumping in here, it is not strange at all, when you take into account the long term view of the path that Vegas has taken. I/we have seen features wither and die (ProType Titler for one) and on the hand, hand-offs to 3rd party developers, VASST, Excalibur, FBmn, Red Giant (I have MBL) and more recently GenArts - I use Particle Illusion and Sapphire Edge.

Grazie

Video Content Creator and Potter
PC 7 64-bit 16gb * Intel® Core™i7-2600k Quad Core 3.40GHz * 2GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 560 Ti
Cameras: Canon XF300 + PowerShot SX50HS Bridge


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Blake Gibson
Re: Colour Curves plugins for Vegas pro 12? (for separate colours/channels)
on Nov 27, 2014 at 11:46:09 pm

Graham, I see your point for the most part for things like LUT support. But for things like whitebalance, highlights and shadows, OMF export and 10 bit project, they really should get on this because their direct competitors are offering these things as standard and they are losing customers because of it. I myself am considering going to premiere but I really like Vegas. I actually already have a 1 year subscription to Abode CC that a friend gave me a month or 2 ago, but I haven't used it yet because I like Vegas that much.

And it's not just me, in my searching and browsing I have seen many people jump ship to premiere or another system from Vegas because of stuff like this. Even LUT support should be implemented IMO.


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Graham Bernard
Re: Colour Curves plugins for Vegas pro 12? (for separate colours/channels)
on Nov 28, 2014 at 7:34:16 am

[Blake Gibson] "And it's not just me, in my searching and browsing I have seen many people jump ship to premiere or another system from Vegas because of stuff like this."
Now we are getting somewhere. . . . It could all be about "Churn". No, not how Daisy gets her milk into butter, but rather about the agitation (churning) of a customer's life cycle with a product . . . In My Opinion SCS and their marketeers and accountants have to consider just how much of the entry level purchases/purchasers are capable of supporting the ongoing R&D of a product, and here that product is VP. As long as the revenue tank is being filled by willing, eager, inspired newbies, up-takers, then there is enough of a reservoir of money to pay overheads and so on. When this "dips" below a certain level, or towards it, then things start to get challenging. As the Churn vector increases - people moving off and away from VP - then there'd be less free-ed-up revenues to make improvements to an existing s/w. Churn, can ultimately works against improvements, and does so in a most insidious way.

I also enjoy working in VP. It is both intuitive and for the most part doesn't get in my face when I want to do tasks. I've been through most entry-level NLEs, and have viewed Prem, Avid and FCP at exhibitions, and yes I see the superb interfaces and how one in particular is the industry standard - I get it, I really do. But they aren't for me. I like the almost ANALOGUE appeal of VP; I like the quick and dirty scrubbing and Trimming<>Assembly I have developed to get to initial edits - it's almost like pushing and pulling clay into a shape or scratching pastel crayon or oils on a White block of paper/canvas. I also know that this approach drives Editors of Timecode and so on nutz! To me, it is so responsive to my ideas I don't have to think to much about the process. This why I jumped aboard VP and stayed with it.

All this being so, I understand why you can't forgive VP for the lack of the controls you/we want. But it does perform in the way I want it to. - And you know what, there ONCE was a time when VP didn't allow scripting? It then became the market leader. Also, there was once a time when there weren't colour wheels - yeah? VP was the first to introduce them. And now, others have followed. And for the previous ten years, has kept me loyal 'cos of its striving to improve it with both workflow and innovations.

Bottom line? IMHO, it would appear there just ain't enough bodies at SCS to plan, QA and implement the feature sets we'd all like (bugs present in the recent build noted from early builds too are being collated for correction - Nick Hope's experience) and, the addiction resulting from "churn" figures, can make any company myopic. As I tried to explain, it can be very very insidious too.

But, hey, what do I know!

Grazie

Video Content Creator and Potter
PC 7 64-bit 16gb * Intel® Core™i7-2600k Quad Core 3.40GHz * 2GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 560 Ti
Cameras: Canon XF300 + PowerShot SX50HS Bridge


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Blake Gibson
Re: Colour Curves plugins for Vegas pro 12? (for separate colours/channels)
on Nov 30, 2014 at 6:40:13 am

Graham, we can only hope they somehow figure it out for VP14 :D


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