FORUMS: list search recent posts

Forgive the repeat, still looking for GPU understanding for preview only...

COW Forums : VEGAS Pro

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Xavier (Scott) Francis
Forgive the repeat, still looking for GPU understanding for preview only...
on Jun 5, 2014 at 12:21:41 am

Hey All,

Again, I apologize for repeating a subject that has been gone over and over again. But I really need some clarity and guidance.
I just updated my system to the newest i7 Haswell (4790), and 16GB ram, FAST Samsung SSD and a good MSI board, boots up from off in under 10 seconds to Windows 7 Ultimate!! Still using my AMD Radeon 6870 for GPU.

I did not upgrade to a faster GPU due to all the mess with GPU rendering, Kepler cards, GTX's being slow (after 6xx series) and the like.

My NEEDS are NOT GPU rendering only Preview quality. Still with this new system I am dealing with NOT being able to get 29.97fps preview on anything OTHER than Preview Full or lower, during crossfades, using Canon's MP4 formats 35mbps from my Canon G30/XA25's as well as other HD formats.

To gain better preview, my understanding is that I CAN upgrade to a faster AMD chip (7xxx series or R7 or R9) but which is really going to help me the best in price/performance. The R9 270 & 270x vs the 290 or 290x, is there REALLY that much better for the cost? Also, I am using the Radeon HD 6870, am I going to see new card smoke my old one, or am I in for a shock and will gain minimal preview increase?

I am not looking into the NVIDIA stuff at all with all the problems they are experiencing.

So in a nutshell, what can I do and what is a $200 card range to get better preview? OR is it not worth it and I should just bite the bullet and use proxies for editing? I hesitate to do so because I often have a TON of track when doing shoots with multiple takes.

Again, I appreciate EVERYONE's time and effort on these posts, and cannot tell you how I use the knowledge shared here...

Best!

Xavier (Scott) Francis
Mind's Eye Audio/Video Productions


Return to posts index

John Rofrano
Re: Forgive the repeat, still looking for GPU understanding for preview only...
on Jun 5, 2014 at 10:44:52 am

[Xavier (Scott) Francis] "My NEEDS are NOT GPU rendering only Preview quality. Still with this new system I am dealing with NOT being able to get 29.97fps preview on anything OTHER than Preview Full or lower, during crossfades, using Canon's MP4 formats 35mbps from my Canon G30/XA25's as well as other HD formats."
I too would love to hear from Vegas Pro editors with newer ATI cards because I have the older Radeon HD 5870 so I don't know if the newer cards are significantly faster with Vegas Pro timeline playback.

Perhaps if you could post a few seconds of raw footage from your camera we could all download it and test on our workstations? You may be able to upload it here to the COW or use DropBox or something (I really like DropBox for sharing large files).

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



Return to posts index

Scott Francis
Re: Forgive the repeat, still looking for GPU understanding for preview only...
on Jun 5, 2014 at 12:12:19 pm

Thanks John, will 13hr day today, I will try to get ya something tomorrow if possible...

Really appreciate your help!!

Best,

Xavier (Scott) Francis
Mind's Eye Audio/Video Productions


Return to posts index


sammy sam
Re: Forgive the repeat, still looking for GPU understanding for preview only...
on Aug 14, 2014 at 5:14:46 pm

I just picked up an R9 270x to use with sony vegas pro 13 , had been using slow nvidia card, decided to upgrade and take advantage of render power , and maybe playback, i did a clean install etc , few things i noticed , playback is very smooth at full resolution when regular sony plugin or not to intensive 3rd party plugins.. as soon as you put magic bullet looks or film convert , you start loosing about half to a third of the fps , if you do a chain and plug both magic bullet nad film convert your talking about two third of the fps play back is gone at full res, that has been my experience so far ,


Return to posts index

Norman Black
Re: Forgive the repeat, still looking for GPU understanding for preview only...
on Jun 5, 2014 at 3:24:59 pm

[John Rofrano] "I too would love to hear from Vegas Pro editors with newer ATI cards because I have the older Radeon HD 5870 so I don't know if the newer cards are significantly faster with Vegas Pro timeline playback. "

I have a 7950 card which should be the same perf as an R9 280. I'll run and/or time anything.


Return to posts index

Scott Francis
Re: Forgive the repeat, still looking for GPU understanding for preview only...
on Jun 5, 2014 at 8:39:35 pm

Hey Guys,

Here is a link to download two file types from my Canon Cameras as well as the MP4 created by a Blackmagic ATEM TVS and a converted m2ts format (from the ATEM file) type that I use as well. The last two are based on some of you and a discussion we had about the files the ATEM creates and issues with Vegas.

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/kas6fumg741dxzr/AADCLIdJ4wyY2wKbGiuI_VLsa

They are smaller/short files. Again, my issue is when I do transitions from one lane/track to another (using envelopes)or other transitions, I get frames dropped. It is a real pain to not have these clear as to watch for camera movement, etc.

My last big project was a 2+ hr play that I shot with 3 cameras and created an MP4 with the ATEM switcher of all the live shoot. I also capture from each individual camera and have a total of 4 video tracks (camera L, C, R, and the ATEM stream). The ATEM stream was converted the same way as the above m2ts file. I line up all the files in Vegas and do some fine tuning from the converted ATEM file and would use the original camera footage when a bad crossfade or when the wrong camera was up. So over the 2hr video I may have had 100 or so crossfades (via envelopes) from the main ATEM to the original camera files.
As I was editing, again, when I go from one event track to another I lose fps...and can only use Preview Half or Full to stay around 29.97 FPS. My project was set to 29.97 since the ATEM stream was that and not the 60p of the MP4 files.

Hope this makes sense and thanks for all your help!!

Best

Xavier (Scott) Francis
Mind's Eye Audio/Video Productions


Return to posts index


Norman Black
Re: Forgive the repeat, still looking for GPU understanding for preview only...
on Jun 6, 2014 at 4:57:17 pm

I downloaded the file. Anything specific I should try?

I did try some things based on your comments and I have some comments.

60p video is always going to stress Vegas to its limits. 1080p60 the real problem. This stresses the video decoder and the decoder is always CPU only.

Even in a 30p project the 60p video is still fully decoded before they drop every other frame.

One of the videos was 1088. This adds an interpolation to the playback when your project is 1080. This is more overhead than pure 1080 footage. I noticed Vegas showing a different in the display of the 1088 footage in preview and good modes.

I noticed that the performance of a single track crossfade is much better than two events on separate tracks with events with a overlapping fade out/in. This makes some sense. Only one "effect" computing verses two effects.

I noticed the the Quicktime file, "from ATEM TVS.mp4" file was worse on crossfades than the other files. Playback rate really dropped on this one during a crossfade, whereas the others did not.


Return to posts index

Scott Francis
Re: Forgive the repeat, still looking for GPU understanding for preview only...
on Jun 6, 2014 at 5:46:56 pm

Thanks Norman!

The ATEM stream is janky as it is missing some headers for SVP to read it properly. John R. has helped me with that, one reason I converted it to the m2ts format.

Which file was 1088? Hopefully NOT the MP4 from the cameras.

Also, I have no option when using multiple cameras, I HAVE to have them on multiple tracks, I need to see what each has when choosing what to use. That is unless you have another way of doing it.

What GPU card are you using and what are your result per file?

Thanks again so much!!

Xavier (Scott) Francis
Mind's Eye Audio/Video Productions


Return to posts index

Norman Black
Re: Forgive the repeat, still looking for GPU understanding for preview only...
on Jun 6, 2014 at 7:49:11 pm
Last Edited By Norman Black on Jun 6, 2014 at 7:59:16 pm

[Scott Francis] "What GPU card are you using and what are your result per file?"

AMD 7950. What exactly do you want me to try. Benchmarking is no good without precision. Best thing would be to upload a VEG file with the things you would like tested/benchmarked. I already have the video files.

And remember that GPU is only once part of editing. Without strong effect use, probably a smaller one.

[Scott Francis] "Which file was 1088?"
Converted From ATEM TVS.m2ts

[Scott Francis] "Also, I have no option when using multiple cameras, I HAVE to have them on multiple tracks, I need to see what each has when choosing what to use."

I don't know about older version of Vegas but Version 12 and on has a multi-cam editing feature which is quite nice. I only used it once. Very easy once you have the cameras sync'd.
http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/cutting_with_the_vegas_pro_multi-camera...

John can talk to you about VASST infinityCam and Ultimate S utilities.


Return to posts index


Scott Francis
Re: Forgive the repeat, still looking for GPU understanding for preview only...
on Jun 7, 2014 at 5:28:21 pm

Thanks again Norman!

I would ask how your GPU handles each file playback during transitions across event lanes. Seeing if it can stay at full FPS and Best - full and so forth (seeing what it can playback). That would help me to decide if I should upgrade or not.

Again, greatly appreciate it!!

Xavier (Scott) Francis
Mind's Eye Audio/Video Productions


Return to posts index

John Rofrano
Re: Forgive the repeat, still looking for GPU understanding for preview only...
on Jun 10, 2014 at 4:35:28 am

[Scott Francis] "I would ask how your GPU handles each file playback during transitions across event lanes. Seeing if it can stay at full FPS and Best - full and so forth (seeing what it can playback). That would help me to decide if I should upgrade or not."
I can playback crossfades between "Canon 1.MTS" and "Canon 2.MP4" at full frame rates (29.97) using Best(Full) with the media on a single track. That dips down momentarily to about ~27 fps if I place them on separate tracks. This is because you are now compositing two tracks together. If I switch to Best(Auto) I get 29.97 playback on multiple tracks all day long.

This is in a 1920x1080-60i project (29.970 fps) with Resample Disabled on the 59.940 fps "Canon 2.MP4" footage. Feel free to make a project and upload it using this media if you think we are not using the media in the same way that you are.
[Xavier (Scott) Francis] "I just updated my system to the newest i7 Haswell (4790), and 16GB ram, FAST Samsung SSD and a good MSI board, boots up from off in under 10 seconds to Windows 7 Ultimate!! Still using my AMD Radeon 6870 for GPU."
Once again this is on my 2008 Mac Pro Xeon E5462 2.88Ghz 8-core with 16GB Memory and ATI Radeon HD 5870 with the Catalyst 14.10 drivers running Windows 7 Pro 64-bit in Bootcamp that I picked up for $740 on eBay. Not a bad for a 6 year old computer! ;-)

So why aren't you seeing what I'm seeing since your ATI card is just a little slower than mine? Could it be that you only have 4-cores and I have 8-cores and timeline playback is still primarily CPU intensive? You have 4 x 3.6Ghz which is 14.4Ghz total and I have 8 x 2.88Ghz which is 23.04Ghz total so I have more processing power available.

Are you using 59.940 footage in a 29.97 timeline? and are you disabling resample? This is the single greatest thing you can do to keep the frame rate up when your source framerate doesn't match your project framerate.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



Return to posts index

Scott Francis
Re: Forgive the repeat, still looking for GPU understanding for preview only...
on Jun 10, 2014 at 11:58:42 am

Thanks John...

I have just started to disable resample on the 60p clips. That does seem to help a bit with preview.
So my main question is WHY is preview still so CPU heavy when we are utilizing GPU preview? This doesn't seem to be logical (at least in my mind) as I have been chasing this end of the rainbow since SVP11!!!

With all this said, should I not bother updating my GPU?

Again, I really appreciate the help....Also, how useful is multicam editing in SVP vs the way I am handling it? My concern is from what I remember when SVP introduced this, is that once they are lined up, if there is a sync issue, on can be out of luck, and also that I can't see all the video at one time...but I may be mistaken.

Again and as always I appreciate your help and input!!

Best

Xavier (Scott) Francis
Mind's Eye Audio/Video Productions


Return to posts index


John Rofrano
Re: Forgive the repeat, still looking for GPU understanding for preview only...
on Jun 10, 2014 at 12:18:14 pm

[Scott Francis] "I have just started to disable resample on the 60p clips. That does seem to help a bit with preview. "
It helped me more than a bit. I went from 6 fps back up to 29.97 fps during transitions. If you don't disable resample, Vegas Pro will try and blend frames on the fly to conform to the projects frame rate. Other NLE's would force you to conform your video first. This isn't a bad idea. Just because Vegas Pro lets you throw mixed frame rate clips on the timeline doesn't mean that you should. ;-)
[Scott Francis] "So my main question is WHY is preview still so CPU heavy when we are utilizing GPU preview? This doesn't seem to be logical (at least in my mind) as I have been chasing this end of the rainbow since SVP11!!!"
It's about striking a balance. The GPU doesn't work on it's own. It is a co-processor which means that main processor (CPU) needs to feed it work. Perhaps an 8-core can feed the same GPU better than a 4-core can and keep it busy. There is a lot of setup and breakdown of data before and after the GPU does it's work and the CPU needs to do all of that. Think of it this way... have you ever been so busy and someone says to you, "why don't you delegate that to someone else" and you say, "it would take me longer to explain to them what to do than to do it myself"? That's the relationship between the CPU and GPU. The CPU needs to do work to use the GPU. It's not free from overhead and sometimes it can even be slower because the overhead is greater than the computation.
[Scott Francis] "Also, how useful is multicam editing in SVP vs the way I am handling it?"
Multicam in Vegas Pro assumes that everything is synced up correctly before you start. We have tools at VASST like infinitiCAM and Ultimate S Pro that take a different approach using markers for camera switches. Here is a video of infinitiCAM that you can download and view (sorry it's in WMV format). This will show you the workflow.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



Return to posts index

Scott Francis
Re: Forgive the repeat, still looking for GPU understanding for preview only...
on Jun 10, 2014 at 2:24:17 pm

Thanks john,

I have an AMD system too with 8 cores running at 4.0 ghz and still have the same basic dilemma (not sure if that is an AMD vs Intel thing as well). I get the sharing, just don't know if upgrading is going to help...what is your thought?

I will obviously go with the disable resampling to help, do you have a time when you do NOT recommend turning that off? I have read a ton of stuff on here and other places and it goes back and forth.

Also, at this point my workflow is to record shoots live with the ATEM and convert them (AVmux?) to a Vegas likable format in 29.97fps. I will then add the camera footage (1060p 60fps) and edit from there. I will set my project parameters to 1080p at 29.97 and disable resampling. Any other thoughts (minus the other multicam stuff I will look at) to get the best preview possible?

Thanks again, really appreciate this!!

Best

Xavier (Scott) Francis
Mind's Eye Audio/Video Productions


Return to posts index

John Rofrano
Re: Forgive the repeat, still looking for GPU understanding for preview only...
on Jun 11, 2014 at 11:50:18 am

[Scott Francis] "I have an AMD system too with 8 cores running at 4.0 ghz and still have the same basic dilemma (not sure if that is an AMD vs Intel thing as well)."
AMD CPU's are seriously slower than Intels. From cpubenchmark.net it looks like the 4.0 Ghz AMD 8-Core is slower than many of the 3.4Ghz 4-core Intels and significantly slower than 6-core Intels. So your AMD 8-core is grossly underpowered too. I don't know what happened to AMD but I wouldn't use one of their CPU's for video work if you gave it to me for free.
[Scott Francis] "I get the sharing, just don't know if upgrading is going to help...what is your thought?"
It's hard to say. I have the same dilemma. I'm trying to decide if I should upgrade to a 12-core Mac Pro. I paid $740 for my used 8-core Mac Pro and a 12-core is going to cost at least $2400 used. That's 3x the price and I know those 4 extra cores are not going to give me 3x the performance boost. Geekbench scores show the 2008 8-core at 11283 and the 2012 12-core at 22118 so that 2x (which isn't bad but not a price performer). I sit and watch my timeline stutter and Vegas Pro is only using 33% of my CPU and I'm thinking, why buy more cores when Vegas isn't using the cores I already have?

It all comes down to having a balanced system. If you have a dealer that will let you return hardware, try a better card and see if you get better performance. This will tell you if your CPU is the bottleneck. I know that when I upgraded my PC workstation from a 4-core to a 6-core, the same Quadro 4000 card performed better with the 6-core. So as I said, it a balance between matching CPU performance and GPU performance.
[Scott Francis] "I will obviously go with the disable resampling to help, do you have a time when you do NOT recommend turning that off? I have read a ton of stuff on here and other places and it goes back and forth."
It's pretty simple: If your frame rate difference is a multiple of 2 (i.e., going from 59.94 to 29.97), disable resample. This will tell Vegas Pro to drop frames instead of synthesizing new ones by blending. If your frame rate difference is not a multiple of 2 (i.e., going from 23.976 to 29.97), it may look bad if you drop frames so you need to tell Vegas Pro to blend them instead by leaving resample enabled. That's all you really need to know.
[Scott Francis] "Also, at this point my workflow is to record shoots live with the ATEM and convert them (AVmux?) to a Vegas likable format in 29.97fps. I will then add the camera footage (1060p 60fps) and edit from there. I will set my project parameters to 1080p at 29.97 and disable resampling. Any other thoughts (minus the other multicam stuff I will look at) to get the best preview possible?"
My only other thought is why are you shooting 60p? This makes no sense to me. It seems that you are shooting slow moving humans and not fast moving race cars so all you are doing is making extra work for yourself in post by shooting twice the frames that you need and then throwing half of them away. Once you disable resample you have turned 60p into 30p so why shoot 60p at all? You are receiving no benefit from it.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



Return to posts index


Scott Francis
Re: Forgive the repeat, still looking for GPU understanding for preview only...
on Jun 11, 2014 at 1:46:13 pm

Thanks John,

I have consistently checked the AMD vs Intel over the years and am aware of the lower speeds, but in comparison they are not as bad as one thinks. There top of the line usually matches a series prior of Intel. I have wanted to switch over, but could not until recently.

As far as 60p, for me to get down to a 30p rate on my cameras (Canon G30/XA20) I would have to go down to 17mbps vs 35 mbps on either the MP4 or AVCHD formats. That is cutting it in half and I can see a difference. I am doing dance stuff as well and I am concerned with fast moving feet/hands and so forth.
Is it worth dropping my mbps that far? I have always gone with (in audio or video) shoot/record the highest you can at the beginning and if deliver lower you are at least starting with the best. Maybe that adage is not in line with this..

Again, thanks for all the input.

Xavier (Scott) Francis
Mind's Eye Audio/Video Productions


Return to posts index

John Rofrano
Re: Forgive the repeat, still looking for GPU understanding for preview only...
on Jun 12, 2014 at 12:31:29 am

[Scott Francis] "As far as 60p, for me to get down to a 30p rate on my cameras (Canon G30/XA20) I would have to go down to 17mbps vs 35 mbps on either the MP4 or AVCHD formats. That is cutting it in half and I can see a difference."
Actually it's not. Shooting twice as many frames per second at twice the bit rate per second is exactly the same quality has half as many frames at half the bit rate because the measurement is still "per second!". So 35Mbps / 60fps = 583Kb per frame and 17Mbps / 30 fps = 567Kb per frame. It's the same bit rate in frames per second.
[Scott Francis] "I am doing dance stuff as well and I am concerned with fast moving feet/hands and so forth. "
That doesn't matter. You are throwing half of the frames away remember. Your playback is still 30fps in the end so the motion is exactly the same is if you had shot 30fps. It would only matter if you were delivering 60 fps.
[Scott Francis] " I have always gone with (in audio or video) shoot/record the highest you can at the beginning and if deliver lower you are at least starting with the best. Maybe that adage is not in line with this."
If you want to shoot twice as many frames and have slow stuttering playback, that's up to you. I agree it's best to acquire the best quality possible, but if your compeer can't handle it, you have to ask yourself, "at what cost?".

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



Return to posts index

David Norman
Re: Forgive the repeat, still looking for GPU understanding for preview only...
on Jun 13, 2014 at 9:08:43 pm

I kept my CPU 3770, 32gb of RAM, 2xIntel 510 SSDs and swapped my AMD 6950 for a R9 290x and playback on the timelines is better, i can play 1080p content whether it is 60p, 30p or 24p fine at normal FPS but the moment I add color corrections, masks, alphas and other layers that quickly goes out the window

I would love to have a rig powerful enough to run newblueFX titles on top of 1080p content with multiple layers.... but i dont think that will be reality until 4k is the norm and our rigs are powerful enough the work with it... then 1080p will be easy

I will be upgrading my motherboard and CPU to one of the 8 core CPUs after summer.

Dell XPS 15" 9350 i7, 512gb SSD, Nvidia 750m
Intel i7 4770, R9 290, 32gb, 2xRAID0 Intel 240gb SSD, 2x2TB WD Green, 3x23" Samsung LCDs
http://youtube.com/adidas4275


Return to posts index


Norman Black
Re: Forgive the repeat, still looking for GPU understanding for preview only...
on Jun 11, 2014 at 5:17:38 pm

You did not give any specifics so I created a VEG file and ran tests on my machine. Here is the file.
7608_perftest.zip

This was done at Good Full and with disable resample turned OFF. The project is 1920x1080p29.97.

The file encoded by Quicktime, From ATEM TVS.mp4, has performance problems with the Vegas decoder. Nothing works very well with that one.

With the others, everything was smooth with GPU and CPU with crossfades and separate overlapped track fade out/in.

With CPU only the cross fades are still smooth, but the overlapped track fades slowed down.

My machine
core i7 4770K, 4Ghz
AMD 7950 GPU (same perf as a R9 280)


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]