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Need help before I explode :'(

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dan crossland
Need help before I explode :'(
on May 6, 2014 at 12:27:19 am

Hello everyone,

New to the website but it looked like a good spot for some help.

Long story short, I use Sony Vegas pro 12 and I record my paintball events. Ever since I been using it, all my videos come out in a dramatic blur once I upload it to YouTube. I have a lot of motion in my video as you can see in the link below.

I spent well over 24hrs trying different settings, rendering, and other formats to help increase quality... I'm going bonkers like you wont believe. It's 100% perfect after I render the video but once YouTube uploads it then I cry to sleep.

I didn't see any rule on linking so sorry if I'm not suppose to. Here is the link to the horror and dont forget to place it on 1080P to watch the horro in HD



and the settings I recently used out of the other 20 different tries.

http://s952.photobucket.com/user/sniperwolf940/library/


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Dave Haynie
Re: Need assistance before I explode :'(
on May 6, 2014 at 3:59:37 am
Last Edited By Dave Haynie on May 6, 2014 at 4:00:55 am

It's not too happy with "help" in the subject...

What you're seeing is too much motion for the bitrate, basically. This is going to be a problem with enough camera motion on any intraframe compression algorithm, like AVC or anything else you can get on YouTube.

Basically, what happens in AVC or MPEG-2 is this: there's a single frame, called an I-Frame, which is basically just a high-rent JPEG, I is for "Independent". So that's compression, but only within that one frame. Ok, so now, along comes another frame. Rather than just compress that frame again and make another I-Frame, these algorithms are way more clever. They run a thing called a motion search algorithm between that first frame and the next, and try to figure out what doesn't move, what does, and where. This is encoded as a set of motion vectors. Ok, so now, those motion vectors get applied to the first frame to try to transform it into the second. Then the second is subtracted, and only the different (basically, the error) is compressed. For the usual amount of motion between frames, that works pretty well... the error frame, which along with those very compact motion vectors gets compresses as a P-Frame (P = predictive), takes up much less space than that whole high-rent JPEG.

You run into a problem in any MPEG or even JPEG algorithm if you don't have enough bits to compress the image... you start to get big blotchy areas, visible blocking between the "macrocells", the blocks (usually 16x16 pixels) analyzed by the JPEG algorithm, etc. And in AVC or MPEG, you start to run low on bits for proper compression when you have to much motion, which means the motion prediction doesn't compress well enough, meaning that each error frame is full of stuff, which has to be compressed into the expected tiny amount of space available.

The other problem you have -- you're kind of defining worst-case here, is lots and lots of detail in the area: all the foliage, all the ground cover, etc... it had lots of high frequency information in it. That's what gets removed when the JPEG encoding takes place... JPEG basically does a low-pass filter on each of those macrocells I mentioned, cutting down higher frequency information as much as possible. Worse yet, when it's doing a bit too much compression, you wind up with "digital noise", which is another kind of high frequency information, and not one you want... but the next round of compression doesn't know that.

I couldn't trick YouTube into letting me steal the 1080p version, but the 720p is just as bad. And it looks like you're getting a variable bitrate (which is good) varying between 2.5Mb/s and about 5Mb/s. That's definitely not fast enough for the kind of video you're shooting. Honestly, if I had that much jerking around, I'd shoot at 60p at minimum (twice the number of I-Frames for the same amount of motion... 720/60p is in the ATSC television spec largely because ESPN, backed by Disney, lobbied hard for it... for sports motion, of course), and ideally, with an I-Frame only camera. That doens't immediately solve your problems getting to YouTube, but the cleaner you start with, the cleaner you'll wind up with. If you're using Heros, you need a Hero 3+ for 1080/60p at a decent bitrate.

Bottom line is, for this kind of video, shoot it as clean and high framerate, high bitrate as you can. If you edit and recompress, output that at a very high bitrate too... YouTube will take Blu-Ray quality and even some pro formats as uploads.

This may also help you get the best YouTube encoding. They have an algorithm that judges the quality of your video in various secret ways, which determines some of the parameters of the encoding, even which resolutions it'll encode for you. I recently put up a video shot in part on HD camera, in part on SD camera (with high-quality uprez), but a good bit of the HD video was just shooting an interview on a projection screen via Skype. YouTube correctly sussed that the quality was basically SD, despite the fact I sent a Blu-ray quality encoding (I was trying to fool it -- didn't work).

-Dave


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Dave Haynie
Re: Need assistance before I explode :'(
on May 6, 2014 at 4:15:48 am

One Update: I did manage to grab the 1080p stream... funny thing, it's practically the same bitrate as the 720p stream. The total file size is 247MB for the 720p, 292MB for the 1080p. So I'm claiming YouTube has you flagged for lower quality video, probably based on the quality of the upload or perhaps even the original... you didn't post specs on the camera, bitrate, framerate, etc. of the original, or the specs on the upload. Those are critical factors in getting YouTube to do you bidding.

-Dave


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dan crossland
Re: Need assistance before I explode :'(
on May 6, 2014 at 5:45:41 am
Last Edited By dan crossland on May 6, 2014 at 5:47:40 am

I record in 1080p 60FPS wide and again the quality is flawless until It's uploaded to YouTube. In addition, my first post has my Photobucket link to some specs I tried out of a tun I used.


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Norman Black
Re: Need assistance before I explode :'(
on May 6, 2014 at 3:08:33 pm

[dan crossland] "I record in 1080p 60FPS wide and again the quality is flawless until It's uploaded to YouTube. In addition, my first post has my Photobucket link to some specs I tried out of a tun I used."

Youtube is 30p of less, so do not bother uploading anything 1080p60. Encode your 60p (59.94) to 29.97 for upload. With resample turned off in Vegas, then every other frame will be removed.

Your photobucket link does not work. It says the library is private.


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dan crossland
Re: Need assistance before I explode :'(
on May 7, 2014 at 12:13:47 am

It's set to public now, please give it a look.


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Norman Black
Re: Need assistance before I explode :'(
on May 8, 2014 at 4:20:42 am

Your project settings look fine. Your question about using "use project setting" or setting Best in the render template does not really mean anything in this context given that your project already has Best set.

The Internet 1080 HD setting should be fine for upload. The other setting you had with 50Mbps average and 135 Mbps max is really out of place.

I'll quote my previous post.
If what you upload (the video) to Youtube does not go blocky or have problems and what you get back does have problems then you are having low bitrate problems.

The real problem is probably that your video does not compress well enough to work at the Youtube encoded bitrates.

I previously suggested some things you can try to improve your situation.

Youtube 1080 bitrates are about 7-8Mbps. This means they re-encode everything you send them to their standard, regardless of what you upload. If you give them(Youtube) a "perfect" video, what you get back is not likely to be perfect due to them re-encoding. You can get the major blockiness you see if the video material is problematic for compression. As stated in previous posts.

Since the encoders in Vegas are not as good as the x264 encoder Youtube uses we typically pad our encoded bitrates a little higher to compensate. The Internet 1080 template is about 50% higher than Youtube bitrates which is most cases should be fine.


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Norman Black
Re: Need assistance before I explode :'(
on May 8, 2014 at 2:27:35 pm

I forgot one thing. You can reduce the slices encoding parameter to 1. That will/can increase the compression efficiency of you encode from Vegas. Of course, if the encode already looks fine at 4 slices then it probably will not help.


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Dave Haynie
Re: Need assistance before I explode :'(
on May 6, 2014 at 5:39:00 pm

That's the right way to shoot, but unfortunately, YouTube won't preserve that.

I like what Norman pointed out too... camera shake control. That goes back to what I said about the whole MPEG/AVC encoding process. The ideal fast motion in an MPEG video is a stationary camera with something moving across a stationary background -- does that pretty well.

When you have your fine detail, your fast motion, and constant moving of the background, that's ok at high bitrate. But cut out half the frames (downsampling), so all those motion vectors are basically doubled in length, and the error frames made larger, etc. it's just more than YouTube can cram into a low bitrate AVC.

Here are some things to try. First, try some stabilization. That's probably going to help more than anything. You'll note, in your video, when the camera does stop, things look dramatically better for the fractions of a second you do stop. If you can keep all that small motion from showing up in the video, it's going to get better.

Next, do your own encoding at 29.97fps -- downsampled from "60p" however you like to do it (blending or dropping frames). YouTube is going to do this anyway, so why not experiment with it and see if you can get a decent encoding even at a higher bitrate.

Next is blurring. Seriously. If you over analyze commercial DVD video like I did back in the early days, when I could not get my video to look as good (I was shooting regular sports stuff back then, about all the fast motion video I've done, mostly soccer), then you'll notice that in really fast motion scenes, things sometimes get a little blurry. That's a trick to keep the MPEG encoding from making things even worse.

As I mentioned before, the goal of block in the JPEG-like part of MPEG/AVC is to filter out high frequency information... stuff you may not notice. You don't always notice these macrocell boundaries in HD, when the video is overly compressed, but they were really obvious in SD. Some of the other bad video, noise, etc. is due to the same issues. If you apply a little global blurring, using say a Gaussian blur with a very light touch, just in those most troubled areas, you'll find those really bad parts looking better. You're kind of applying just a little global "damage" to the scene to get past the big, very localized damage that bad encoding gets you. The loss of high detail in fast motion video isn't usually very apparent, either, or a bunch of DVD/Blu-ray mastering engineers would have been out of work long ago. But those distortions or visible macroblocks, they jump right out at you.

-Dave


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dan crossland
Re: Need assistance before I explode :'(
on May 6, 2014 at 11:54:47 pm

Thanks for all the informative information, Could you snap shot 3 pictures for me? snap shot a 1080p setting you would recommend in,

1.Project property

2.(Right click video file and select properties) and show what switches you recommend

3.Render As.... and show your customize template settings?

From what you're saying, I already messed with those settings and changes and still receive the same results when it's uploaded to YouTube. When I had Adobe master class CS5 I never had an issue but I don't have adobe anymore :(


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dan crossland
Re: Need assistance before I explode :'(
on May 8, 2014 at 3:14:03 am

Are you able to see my photobucket now?


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Norman Black
Re: Need h?lp before I explode :'(
on May 6, 2014 at 4:23:24 am
Last Edited By Norman Black on May 6, 2014 at 3:04:30 pm

I am with Dave on this one. I have a mountain bike videos where the GoPro is mounted to the bike and the bike is moving and bouncing down the trail with high detail surroundings. Very hard to get high quality with the low bitrates we get from online services. My stuff is on Smugmug.

Another thing, is when you are outside in bright light with a GoPro you get very high shutter speeds. This gives crisp detail. A "normal" video camera would likely have a slower shutter and fast movement would blur the image, and blurry stuff compresses very easily. So the typical GoPro action footage really puts stress on low bitrate encoding.

If what you upload to Youtube does not go blocky or have problems then you are having low bitrate problems. No setting can fix this. Youtube encodes to a certain bitrate no matter how high a bitrate you upload to them.

Something that helped me was to stabilize the video. I use a very light touch and turn off most settings. Handheld or helmet mount would probably leave more settings on than I use. I use Mercalli 3 SAL and my avoid border setting is 10 and my smoothing is also 10. Both very lower numbers. What this smooths is the small quick movements while leaving the "real" moves. With the bike on even a smooth trail there is a micro buzz.

When watching your video I notice it suddenly going blocky and then coming back. The blocky sections are coming from sudden jarring movement while running/moving/bouncing. A bouncy camera. Stabilization can help this. Also it goes blocky on really fast pans. I do not think stabilization can help here. You can probably put a linear or motion blur type effect on fast pans. Blurry stuff compresses better. People understand blur on pans, where blockiness is yuk. Or edit the worst of the pans out.

Just now I am doing a high speed timelapse like thing for an MTB video. I have had to resort to masking off the edges some, with a plain border, to create some invariant pixels which will compress perfectly. This leaves more bitrate for the rest of the stuff and I then get higher quality.

Of course high bitrate stuff never has any issue.


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Phil Peacock
Re: Need h?lp before I explode :'(
on May 6, 2014 at 11:17:46 am

Thanks all. One for asking the question and two for the very informative responses so far. Lots to learn from this. Cheers.


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Stewart Bourke
Re: Need h?lp before I explode :'(
on May 6, 2014 at 6:45:49 pm

+1 from me too.

If Dave wrote books I would buy them. I look forward to his posts - extremely informative and clear.

STBO


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