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SVP GRINDS to a halt

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Scott Francis
SVP GRINDS to a halt
on Apr 10, 2014 at 4:39:29 pm

Hi All,

I am trying to work with H.264 MP4 files from a Blackmagic ATEM Switcher recording. They are 1080p format and I can get about 7-10 FPS preview.....any ideas?

I can edit about anything else and get decent preview....my project settings match the file format and I am using an 8 Core AMD with 16GB of RAM and the system drive is SSD.

This happens with both the GPU on and off.

Thanks for any help!!

Scott Francis
Mind's Eye Audio/Video Productions


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John Rofrano
Re: SVP GRINDS to a halt
on Apr 11, 2014 at 11:00:23 am

[Scott Francis] "I am trying to work with H.264 MP4 files from a Blackmagic ATEM Switcher recording. They are 1080p format and I can get about 7-10 FPS preview.....any ideas?"
Reduce your playback quality or convert the video to a digital intermediary for editing. AVC/H.264 is a broad specification that no software vendor can ever support entirely. This means that it's easy for hardware manufacturers to produce a file that is AVC/H.264 compliant and have it not work in certain software. Apparently this is what Blackmagic may have done. As you might expect, they may have optimized the format for acquisition which could impact performance when editing. As a result, you'll probably need to convert it for editing smoothly.

This is why NLE's like Final Cut Pro provide digital intermediary codecs like ProRes. Acquisition formats, and editing formats, and delivery formats, are not always the same thing. Sony started down this path by offering CineForm but somewhere along the line they broke that relationship and it's been a problem for Vegas Pro editors ever since. Sony now provides their Sony YUV format as a digital intermediary but it produces huge files. I would convert them to CineForm or Sony MXF for editing.

If you'd like, post a small sample here and we'll download it and run it on our computers and see if we get the same results. In fact, I'd really like to try it with my ATI Radeon HD 5870 graphics card and see if I get higher frame rates. This card has really boosted my playback performance significantly.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Scott Francis
Re: SVP GRINDS to a halt
on Apr 11, 2014 at 11:40:40 am

Hi John,

I have a play that I am shooting tonight and using the ATEM to record....I will capture a short clip and upload it for you.

Your response was kinda what I expected...just don't like spending 6 hours to re-encode a video clip just for editing....but them's the breaks...

Thanks!

Scott Francis
Mind's Eye Audio/Video Productions


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John Rofrano
Re: SVP GRINDS to a halt
on Apr 11, 2014 at 12:14:41 pm

[Scott Francis] ".I will capture a short clip and upload it for you."
That would be great. I'm really interested to see how it performs on my system.
[Scott Francis] "just don't like spending 6 hours to re-encode a video clip just for editing"
How soon we forget that we would spend 6 hours ingesting 6 hours of tape that we shot. How spoiled we all are with our tapeless workflows. lol ;-D

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Scott Francis
Re: SVP GRINDS to a halt
on Apr 11, 2014 at 1:00:56 pm

Good point!!! However, I used to take a laptop to each camera and capture live to save on camera playback use, so I have kinda been spoiled I guess!!

Scott Francis
Mind's Eye Audio/Video Productions


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Chris Young
Re: SVP GRINDS to a halt
on Apr 11, 2014 at 2:34:36 pm

Had a similar problem with some Apple encoded H.264 MP4s.

First step I ended up using an app called

MP4_TO_MKV_LOSLESS_CONVERT.exe.

You drop this into the folder along with the original files and run it. This app ripped through the files in no time at all and put them into MKV wrappers. I seem to remember I may have had to do each file individually. No losses as no transcoding.

Second step I used an app called

MkvToMp4.exe.

With this piece of software you drop all the MKV files into it and run it. This again rips through the process without loss as again no transcoding involved. Just make sure you nominate a destination folder for the rewraps before you start.

What I ended up with were 'normal' MP4 files that played back fine in Vegas.

The original files on investigation were of a format called 'dash' and codec called 'dash'.

The final converted files were designated format 'MPEG-4' and with a codec designation of 'isom'

Go figure? Anyhow it all worked with no quality loss whatsovever.

I found both of the above apps, both free, by searching for them via Google. Give it a go. If you can't find them post back and we can work out a way to get them to you if you want to try the process out.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney



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Scott Francis
Re: SVP GRINDS to a halt
on Apr 11, 2014 at 3:48:22 pm

Do you have links to where you downloaded those apps?

Scott Francis
Mind's Eye Audio/Video Productions


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Chris Young
Re: SVP GRINDS to a halt
on Apr 12, 2014 at 3:23:07 am

Look I'm just rushing out on a job but will check when i get back if it's not tool late. Otherwise tomorrow morning. Will keep you posted. This process saved me heaps of grief time.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney



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Chris Young
Re: SVP GRINDS to a halt
on Apr 12, 2014 at 5:31:56 pm

Scott ~

Good to see you uploaded a file. I tried my first suggestions on it but it didn't work... well it did but the audio was way out of sync.

I then tried something else though and it worked fine. The converted clip plays back at full frame rate and involved NO video conversion, that was totally lossless. The original audio on your clip is 256 kbps AAC. It was converted to MPEG audio, version 1, layer 2 and at 128 kbps. Audio wise to listen to I can't tell the difference. Your call obviously.

What I did was a lossless video conversion from the totally unfriendly QuickTime MP4 clip you uploaded to a Vegas friendly M2TS file. Plays beautifully and if I had a load of it I could edit with it quite happily.

I have attached (I hope! Haven't done it before.) a zip file with an app called

MP4_TO_M2TS_LOSSLESS_CONVERT.EXE

The link is:

7362_mp4m2tsconvert.zip

Also in the zip are two txt files. One has an info breakdown of the clip you uploaded and the second one has an info breakdown of your clip after it was converted to an M2TS file.

To execute the conversion just double click on CONVERT.EXE and it will convert the first file in the folder. I hope you don't have a million clips to do because you will have to remove each original and converted file from the folder you are doing the conversions in before you proceed to double click and convert the next file.

A bit of a clumsy work around but at least you will get good clips to work with.

Hope it is of some help to you. Would be great if someone could write a batch file to run this as a batch convert.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney



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Scott Francis
Re: SVP GRINDS to a halt
on Apr 13, 2014 at 12:20:51 am

Hi Chris,

Really appreciate your help on this. I did download the zip and the program does not appear to be doing anything. It opens up into a command prompt box for a quick second and then nothing. Can I ask where you downloaded it from?

Thanks!

Scott Francis
Mind's Eye Audio/Video Productions


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Chris Young
Re: SVP GRINDS to a halt
on Apr 13, 2014 at 5:00:48 am

Scott ~

Doh! Got in real late from the shoot and saw your posting and ran off on the keyboard without thinking it through fully. New day now and the mind is working correctly now.

You have to install a program called 'EZEncoder' for all these little .exe utilities to run. Really had to dig through my archives to find out where I got it from... finally found it! Go to







Watch this youtube video and it will explain the whole process. Then go to

http://hypedphoto.com/ezencoder.cfm

and download EZEncoder

Down the bottom of the hypedphoto.com page you will find all the following utilitiies. I downloaded the lot and have used a few of the utilities over the last couple of years. MP4 to M2TS is in that lot. I think your problem will be solved once you install EZEncoder. Let us know how you go!

Deinterlace Footage
MJPEG Conversion for Stock Video Sites
Convert All Videos In A folder To Apple ProRes 422
Watermark Your Videos
Get Video Information
Convert Windows Media WMV
Convert HD to SD
Convert VOB's
M2T Conversion
MTS Conversion
MXF Conversion
Make PNGs from Videos
Make Videos from PNGs
1500K Bitrates
Crop 16:9 to 4:3 Aspect
Progressive Footage Conversion when other methods fail
ScreenRecorder With Audio Capture

Good luck!

Chris Young
CYV productions
Sydney



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Scott Francis
Re: SVP GRINDS to a halt
on Apr 12, 2014 at 5:39:27 am
Last Edited By Scott Francis on Apr 12, 2014 at 5:40:23 am

Hey John,

Here is a short clip that I shot tonight. Sorry it is only of the audience, but to have it be the real file, I needed it not to be of the play. That file is about 15GB!!

7359_test2.mp4.zip

Scott Francis
Mind's Eye Audio/Video Productions


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John Rofrano
Re: SVP GRINDS to a halt
on Apr 13, 2014 at 12:12:48 am

[Scott Francis] "Here is a short clip that I shot tonight. "
I'm seeing similar results on my 8-core Xeon with ATI Radeon HD 5870. There is no GPU activity at all and I'm getting 6-7 fps with only 25% CPU load. Clearly this playback isn't using more than 2 of the 8 cores. :(

On my 6-core/12-thread Core i7 with NVIDIA Quadro 4000 I'm getting a respectable 24 fps at Preview Auto and 20 fps at Best Full. That's not bad. The CPU is again at only 25% but my GPU is at 45% which is why I'm getting better frame rates.

So it appears that for this particular footage, Vegas isn't using my ATI card at all but it is using my NVIDIA card. This GPU stuff just gets more and more confusing every day.

BTW, I couldn't help but load the footage into Final Cut Pro X and it played back as smooth as silk! No issues at all. FCP X doesn't have a fps readout, but the video was not jerky like in Vegas Pro. I'm pretty certain it was full frame rate. This is a case where it pays to know more than one NLE.

I would contact Sony and let them know about this problem. Perhaps they can add some optimizations for it.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Scott Francis
Re: SVP GRINDS to a halt
on Apr 13, 2014 at 12:23:06 am

Thanks for checking John!!! I downloaded mediainfo and saw that it is an MOV file format in the MP4 wrapper. Must have something to do with it being a Quicktime format. What version on Quicktime are you using, any thoughts if it is a version issues?

Thanks again!

Scott Francis
Mind's Eye Audio/Video Productions


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John Rofrano
Re: SVP GRINDS to a halt
on Apr 13, 2014 at 11:55:59 am

[Scott Francis] "I downloaded mediainfo and saw that it is an MOV file format in the MP4 wrapper. "
Yea, I saw that too. That prompted me to re-encode the file with QuickTime Pro and that file played back at full frame rates 29.97 fps. Here is what's happening:

The file from Blackmagic has these attributes in Vegas Pro:General
Name: 7359_test2.mp4
Folder: E:\Video Projects\Testing
Type: QuickTime <== Note: it just says "Quicktime" !!!

Plug-In
Name: qt7plug.dll <== Note: Vegas is using Quicktime plugin !!!
Folder: C:\Program Files\Sony\Vegas Pro 12.0\FileIO Plug-Ins\qt7plug
Format: QuickTime 7
The file that I re-encoded with QuickTime Pro has these attributes in Vegas Pro:General
Name: 7359_test2.mov
Folder: E:\Video Projects\Testing
Type: Sony AVC <== Note: it correctly says "AVC" !!!

Plug-In
Name: compoundplug.dll <== Note: Vegas is using internal plugin !!!
Folder: C:\Program Files\Sony\Vegas Pro 12.0\FileIO Plug-Ins\compoundplug
Format: Sony AVC
So the Blackmagic file is not recognized by Vegas Pro as an AVC/H.264 file because all it is being told that it's some type of QuickTime file and so it passes the processing to QuickTime which is not GPU enabled. The file I encoded with QuickTime Pro is correctly flagged as AVC/H.264 and Vegas Pro knows how to process that so it uses it's internal compoundplug.dll which is optimized and GPU accelerated.

The problem should be reported to Blackmagic. Maybe they are not encoding the metadata in the file properly. You should also report the problem to Sony because they might be looking in the wrong place for the video format. The QuickTime Player correctly identified both files as being AVC/H.264 in it's Inspector (Ctrl+I) so it might be a Vegas Pro issue as well.

In the mean time, if you can find a utility that can change the flag in the MP4 file from "QuickTime" to "AVC/H.264" that would solve your problem without re-encoding but you would have to get Sony to tell you what flag they are looking at to know what to change.

I never asked but if the Blackmagic device can record in other formats, including QuickTime, I would try one of those and see if you have better luck getting Vegas Pro to recognize it correctly.
[Scott Francis] "What version on Quicktime are you using, any thoughts if it is a version issues?"
I always use the latest version which currently is 7.7.5 but the problem is with the metadata in the file, not QuickTime.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Chris Young
Re: SVP GRINDS to a halt
on Apr 13, 2014 at 3:22:53 pm

That is indeed an interesting follow up. Did QT have to re-encode or just re-wrap. I was always under the impression QT Pro can't re-wrap only re-encode which is what the OP wanted to avoid if possible.
Yes both BM and Sony need to be made aware of this issue.

There is always something to keep us on our toes!

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney



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Scott Francis
Re: SVP GRINDS to a halt
on Apr 14, 2014 at 2:09:52 pm

Hi Chris,

Got your software stuff to work and really appreciate it!! My antivirus continually saw the scripts and such as malware....have you had this experience?

Scott Francis
Mind's Eye Audio/Video Productions


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Chris Young
Re: SVP GRINDS to a halt
on Apr 15, 2014 at 1:16:10 am

Glad you got it working. Hope it gets you over your current problems Scott. It's a pain when we have to use work arounds but failing this sort of approach what can we do until Sony script Vegas to accept this format codec combo. It is after all a QuickTime file!

Look I can't remember if my AV flagged those scripts. If it did I have told the AV that these little suckers are okay because I don't get any warnings.

Chris Young
CYV Productions
Sydney



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Scott Francis
Re: SVP GRINDS to a halt
on Apr 14, 2014 at 2:08:54 pm

Hi John,

Really appreciate the input....any idea where I could get a metatag editor that does flags?
I Googled a ton yesterday with no luck...

Scott Francis
Mind's Eye Audio/Video Productions


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John Rofrano
Re: SVP GRINDS to a halt
on Apr 14, 2014 at 3:27:19 pm

[Scott Francis] "any idea where I could get a metatag editor that does flags?"
Unfortunately I do not. This is probably something that either Sony or Blackmagic need to fix.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Norman Black
Re: SVP GRINDS to a halt
on Apr 15, 2014 at 10:41:50 pm
Last Edited By Norman Black on Apr 15, 2014 at 10:46:26 pm

I noticed the video file you uploaded in AVC video with AAC audio. It has an MP4 extension but it is actually a Quicktime file, aka MOV. I know underneath the covers the two formats are nearly identical twins, but I said nearly, and that is why the header says Quicktime and not a true mpeg-4.

Vegas special cases Quicktime files which have AVC video and PCM audio. For those files Vegas uses it own internal decoders, which will give better performance. Otherwise Vegas will go through Quicktime and not we are opened up to performance and/or compatibility issues.

Also the QT AVC decoder is known to add a little noise to decodes. This is fine for playback of low bitrate video but not something we want for camera video.

The later is a reason why Vegas, Premiere and maybe others bypass Quicktime in some cases. All DSLRs and digicams typically output MOV with AVC video and PCM audio and these people want high quality decodes.

To get past the problem without encoding the video you can use something like Avidemux to remux the Quicktime MP4/MOV format into a true MP4 file. Vegas does support AVC video and AAC audio in actual MP4 files with its internal decoders. GoPro files are in this format.


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