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Unusual Stuttering - Matched Source Media and Project Settings

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Kell Hymer
Unusual Stuttering - Matched Source Media and Project Settings
on Mar 18, 2018 at 8:35:25 pm

Hi All,

I've been out of the video editing game for a couple years now. I was asked to help a friend with a video. I'm using Vegas 13 Pro. I'm having a problem that I cannot figure out. Unfortunately, i was given mixed fps source media. I can make do with it except for a one of the source clips.

The problem source clip is 23.976 fps, progressive. When I play the clip using software other than Vegas, it plays smooth with no problems. I set my project settings to match this source media. The problem is that once it is in Vegas it stutters. It's similar to the stuttering seen when panning across a still photo. This is not a system resource issue. I have an ample machine. I see it in the preview, after rendering to RAM, and even on the final render (AVC 23.976 progressive). I have forced resampling, disabled it, checked and unchecked "reduce interlace flicker" (which shouldn't matter anyway). I'm at a loss...it looks super choppy.

Current System: Intel i7 4930K OC'd to 4.6 GHz| Asus P9X79 Deluxe | 32GB RAM | AMD R9-290X w/8GB RAM | OCZ Revo 480 GB PCI Express SSD | Windows 7 64 bit | Vegas Pro 12 (64)


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Graham Bernard
Re: Unusual Stuttering - Matched Source Media and Project Settings
on Mar 18, 2018 at 9:01:59 pm

[Kell Hymer] "The problem source clip is 23.976 fps, progressive"
Hmm... I’ve got one camera that does 23.976fps Progressive and VP is silky smooth. Please try MediaInfo to give us a report, just to make sure? Any chance to upload a small sample?

* Grazie

Video Content Creator and Potter
PC 7 64-bit 16gb * Intel® Core™i7-2600k Quad Core 3.40GHz * 2GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 560 Ti
Cameras: Canon XF300 + PowerShot SX50HS Bridge


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Kell Hymer
Re: Unusual Stuttering - Matched Source Media and Project Settings
on Mar 19, 2018 at 4:39:22 am

Hi Graham,

Thanks for the help. I have uploaded a short rendered clip. I can open the original source file with Window's Media Player and it looks fine. However, the second I drop it into Vegas, both preview and render have a stutter.

I uploaded the media file here: 12264_stuttering.mp4.zip

Here is the Mediainfo:

Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : Base Media / Version 2
Codec ID : mp42 (isom/mp42)
File size : 75.8 MiB
Duration : 6 min 53 s
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 1 540 kb/s
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : Main@L3.1
Format settings : CABAC / 3 Ref Frames
Format settings, CABAC : Yes
Format settings, RefFrames : 3 frames
Codec ID : avc1
Codec ID/Info : Advanced Video Coding
Duration : 6 min 52 s
Bit rate : 1 410 kb/s
Width : 1 280 pixels
Height : 720 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Variable
Frame rate : 23.976 (24000/1001) FPS
Minimum frame rate : 23.974 FPS
Maximum frame rate : 23.981 FPS
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
Bit depth : 8 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.064

Current System: Intel i7 4930K OC'd to 4.6 GHz| Asus P9X79 Deluxe | 32GB RAM | AMD R9-290X w/8GB RAM | OCZ Revo 480 GB PCI Express SSD | Windows 10 64 bit | Vegas Pro 13 (64)


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Francois Pénzes
Re: Unusual Stuttering - Matched Source Media and Project Settings
on Mar 19, 2018 at 12:27:38 am

Hi Kell

One of the thing you fail to mention, apart from Graham's request, is the format is was shot at originally (NTSC or PAL) I will assume NTSC since it is 23.976 (AKA 24p). If the other material is not NTSC, your 23.976 can be converted to the PAL format. The most popular method is to speed up the material by 1/24 (~4.1%). Each 24p frame will take the place of two 50i fields. This method incurs no motion artifacts other than the slightly increased speed, which is typically not noticeable. As for audio, the ~4% increase in speed raises the pitch by 0.7 of a semitone, which again typically is not noticed. Sometimes the audio is pitch shifted to restore the original pitch. Also, in general, 24 frames-per-second video has more trouble with fast camera motion than other, higher frame rates, sometimes showing a "strobe" or "choppy" motion, just like 24 frame/s film will if shot as if it is video, without slower camera panning & zooming motion. It is therefore not well-suited for programming requiring spontaneous camera action or "reality" camerawork.

Cheers !

PC Win 10 Pro 64-bit 16gb Intel® Core™i7-2600k Quad Core 3.40GHz
Cameras: Canon XF305 + Canon XH-A1
Blackmagic HyperDeck Studio Mini

''When the cutting stops, the editing begins...''


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Kell Hymer
Re: Unusual Stuttering - Matched Source Media and Project Settings
on Mar 19, 2018 at 4:40:55 am

Thanks Francois! All of the content and the project is NTSC.

Current System: Intel i7 4930K OC'd to 4.6 GHz| Asus P9X79 Deluxe | 32GB RAM | AMD R9-290X w/8GB RAM | OCZ Revo 480 GB PCI Express SSD | Windows 10 64 bit | Vegas Pro 13 (64)


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Graham Bernard
Re: Unusual Stuttering - Matched Source Media and Project Settings
on Mar 19, 2018 at 6:23:00 am
Last Edited By Graham Bernard on Mar 19, 2018 at 6:39:40 am

Ugh.... I believe we have convergence and some evidence-based results. When I see MP4 being used by a colleague, I get twitchy. There is another colleague on the Forum here that is having an awful time in using this Format.

Right in that MediaInfo report is Codec ID : mp42 (isom/mp42). When I see anything MP4 that a User is attempting to edit on a timeline using MP4, my heart drops. MP4 is a delivery format. A very efficient and Globally acceptable delivery format. I have no argument with that. BUT! Unless it has been got, acquired from a “simple” straightforward MP4 CODEC formation, not so much! The real issue I have is the smooth playing you have with Windows Media Player. But that maybe a result from WMP doing a M$ halfway-house assist. I don’t know. I’ve read that Windows 10 needs an assist to cope with Codec ID : mp42 (isom/mp42). Please go into a quiet room and read the following : https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/forum/windows_10-performance/wi...

It would appear M$ W10 didn’t add-back the Codec ID : mp42 (isom/mp42) codec. Yeah, right. Nowadays and forever I don’t add any CODECS unless it is governed or sanctioned by MAGIX ( as was SONY) or one of their Third Party Vendors/Partners. But this? I’d be truly concerned about adding any further CODECS. My possible solution would be to do a DI using Handbrake and produce/render Vegas editable Media.

To recap:
  • MediaInfo is a great Utility.
  • MP4 is a delivery format.
  • You have W10 and W10 didn’t add-back the CODEC for Codec ID : mp42 (isom/mp42)
WMP whilst playing smoothly may point to something Microsoft is doing to allow you play a Delivery CODEC. Whilst this anomaly is interesting/intriguing, our job is to Edit, earn money or have creative joy in what we do. It is NOT about counting Angels on the heads of pins 😉

What do you think?

* Grazie

Video Content Creator and Potter
PC 7 64-bit 16gb * Intel® Core™i7-2600k Quad Core 3.40GHz * 2GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 560 Ti
Cameras: Canon XF300 + PowerShot SX50HS Bridge


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Graham Bernard
Re: Unusual Stuttering - Matched Source Media and Project Settings
on Mar 19, 2018 at 8:05:02 am

Hmm.. Well Kell, no success here with anything like a solution.

It stutters in both WMP and VP15. It just does.

What have I done?

1] Played in WMP and it stutters.

2] Added to VP15 and Matched Settings to the MP4 - Still stutters

3] Rendered to HB MP4 - still stutters.

4] Matched Setting to this NEWLY rendered DI - still stutters.

5] Rendered to my favourite one size fits all MXF - still stutters . . BUT!

Whilst doing the MXF Render the first part of the Horizontal Pan was relativity slower in the render to the Vertical Tilt-UP. Now, I don't know IF this should make a difference other than saying get BOTH Stills and check out the render of the stills; the bitrate of that render; the size of those stills and generally re-review your process PRIOR to that CODEC issues I mentioned. Start with what you know - y\that you have a decent preparation of those stills.

Can you supply the EXIF details of those stills? Are they LARGE files?

Recap: IMHO, Stuttering is prior but not being helped by the CODEC.

* Grazie

Video Content Creator and Potter
PC 7 64-bit 16gb * Intel® Core™i7-2600k Quad Core 3.40GHz * 2GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 560 Ti
Cameras: Canon XF300 + PowerShot SX50HS Bridge


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Graham Bernard
Re: Unusual Stuttering - Matched Source Media and Project Settings
on Mar 19, 2018 at 9:31:05 am

O...K...

My vbest results have been with using a Master Supersampling Envelope for P/C .

* Grazie

Video Content Creator and Potter
PC 7 64-bit 16gb * Intel® Core™i7-2600k Quad Core 3.40GHz * 2GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 560 Ti
Cameras: Canon XF300 + PowerShot SX50HS Bridge


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Kell Hymer
Re: Unusual Stuttering - Matched Source Media and Project Settings
on Mar 25, 2018 at 11:49:22 pm

Hi Grazie,

Thanks so much for all of the help. The video I uploaded was only a piece that was rendered from Sony Vegas and not the original file I was working with. The original file would probably be too big to upload. Unfortunately I do not have the stills...they are incorporated in the source video ☹

I'll do some research into the codec issue and see if I can find some form of resolution. It's super odd that the original file plays just fine until it is dropped into Vegas.

Current System: Intel i7 4930K OC'd to 4.6 GHz| Asus P9X79 Deluxe | 32GB RAM | AMD R9-290X w/8GB RAM | OCZ Revo 480 GB PCI Express SSD | Windows 10 64 bit | Vegas Pro 13 (64)


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