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Derek Charles
Wedding DVD burning file size Vegas Render
on Dec 15, 2017 at 9:01:12 am

I have a ceremony at 2.76 GB at 26 min
and a reception at 2.76 GB at 24 min
both together are too big to fit on one disc (4.7 gig)
the total bitrate for each is 14MB/s
The only way to lower file size is to lower the render bitrate?
How much should I lower it by until I notice a big quality difference?
Thanks


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James Ollick
Re: Wedding DVD burning file size Vegas Render
on Dec 15, 2017 at 2:24:54 pm

Would a double layer DVD do it? They can handle about 8 gigs.

James Ollick


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Jorma Nippala
Re: Wedding DVD burning file size Vegas Render
on Dec 15, 2017 at 3:13:12 pm

Note that "[DVD] total bitrate including video, audio and subs can be max 10.08 Mbit/s (10080 Kbit/s)."


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Derek Charles
Re: Wedding DVD burning file size Vegas Render
on Dec 15, 2017 at 10:39:47 pm

If I film in 100Mbps bitrate Should never go above 12.5 MB when exporting?

I mainly upload to Vimeo and Facebook - The stock render template for internet is "Internet HD 1080p" with a max of 24 and an average of 12.

I've since dragged the 1080 24max/12avg file and rendered that file to 10max and 4avg and the size is now 1.09GB so I can fit both on one DVD. Is there quality loss from rendering a1080 file to 1080 file with the same bitrate settings? I'm asking this for color grading and "rendering to a new track" for smoother playback.

IF that's the way to go - for uploading to Facebook/Vimeo - Should I stick with the 10max/4avg ? Will this help with overall playback speed, and helping it "reach HD quicker during playback because the file size is smaller to load?


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Derek Charles
Re: Wedding DVD burning file size Vegas Render
on Dec 15, 2017 at 10:52:32 pm

I've since dragged the 1080 24max/12avg file and rendered that file to 10max and 4avg and the size is now 1.09GB so I can fit both on one DVD. Is there quality loss from rendering a1080 file to 1080 file with the same bitrate settings? I'm asking this for color grading and "rendering to a new track" for smoother playback.

If I film in 100Mbps bitrate Should never gone above 12.5 MB when exporting?

I mainly upload to Vimeo and Facebook - The stock render template for internet is "Internet HD 1080p" with a max of 24 and an average of 12.

IF that's the way to go - for uploading to Facebook/Vimeo - Should I stick with the 10max/4avg ? Will this help with overall playback speed, and helping it "reach HD quicker during playback because the file size is smaller to load?


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Graham Bernard
Re: Wedding DVD burning file size Vegas Render
on Dec 15, 2017 at 4:09:03 pm

[Derek Charles] "I have a ceremony at 2.76 GB at 26 min
and a reception at 2.76 GB at 24 min
both together are too big to fit on one disc (4.7 gig)
the total bitrate for each is 14MB/s "
I can fit 120minutes on a single DVD. There has to be a real good reason to go above 8mbs. Why have you chosen such a high bitrate?

* Grazie

Video Content Creator and Potter
PC 7 64-bit 16gb * Intel® Core™i7-2600k Quad Core 3.40GHz * 2GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 560 Ti
Cameras: Canon XF300 + PowerShot SX50HS Bridge


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Graham Bernard
Re: Wedding DVD burning file size Vegas Render
on Dec 15, 2017 at 4:19:21 pm
Last Edited By Graham Bernard on Dec 15, 2017 at 4:27:28 pm

And to be a bit more helpful, do use a bitrate calculator. I use one called David’s Bitrate calculator. The other freebie is the BitRate viewer that will read in a MPG file and indicate just where the high rates are being used and gives me an indication just where in the video the heavy lifting is happening and just what I can do to reduce the bitrate. The BIGGEST hidden overhead is actual “Noise “. This can be from low light scenarios which had needed GAIN, which in turn produced GRAIN. Getting the picture? I use NeatVideo to iron out any “overhead” noise.

And again, why the high BitRate?

* Grazie

Video Content Creator and Potter
PC 7 64-bit 16gb * Intel® Core™i7-2600k Quad Core 3.40GHz * 2GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 560 Ti
Cameras: Canon XF300 + PowerShot SX50HS Bridge


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Derek Charles
Re: Wedding DVD burning file size Vegas Render
on Dec 15, 2017 at 8:18:08 pm

Well, I always figured that since my A7sii filmed in 100Mbps bitrate I should keep it close to that when rendering -
I'm honestly just now learning that 100Mbps is around 12.5 MB/s - Should I have just always never gone above 12.5 MB when exporting?

I mainly upload to Vimeo and Facebook - The stock render template for internet is "Internet HD 1080p" with a max of 24 and an average of 12.

I've since dragged the 1080 24max/12avg file and rendered that file to 10max and 4avg and the size is now 1.09GB so I can fit both on one DVD. Is there quality loss from rendering a1080 file to 1080 file with the same bitrate settings? I'm asking this for color grading and "rendering to a new track" for smoother playback.

IF that's the way to go - for uploading to Facebook/Vimeo - Should I stick with the 10max/4avg ? Will this help with overall playback speed, and helping it "reach HD quicker during playback because the file size is smaller to load?


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Graham Bernard
Re: Wedding DVD burning file size Vegas Render
on Dec 16, 2017 at 5:05:40 am

[Derek Charles] "IF that's the way to go - for uploading to Facebook/Vimeo - Should I stick with the 10max/4avg ? Will this help with overall playback speed, and helping it "reach HD quicker during playback because the file size is smaller to load?"
You’re asking great additional questions. Maybe others wish to jump in. I hope my feedback has given you the option to explore further and just what the way to publish your videos.

Suffice it to say, we all need to tailor our output to the platform it will be seen on. My Canon can record at 50Mbs. There’s no way I’d expect this to be tolerated by a DVD and a DVD player! But I’m stoked that my XF300 can do this and provide me with a 422 colour space. Getting my worked prepped for a DVD, running at 7.5 MB or even 4MBs MP4 for auditorium presentation works great for me. Are you getting the picture? 🙂

* Grazie

Video Content Creator and Potter
PC 7 64-bit 16gb * Intel® Core™i7-2600k Quad Core 3.40GHz * 2GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 560 Ti
Cameras: Canon XF300 + PowerShot SX50HS Bridge


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John Rofrano
Re: Wedding DVD burning file size Vegas Render
on Dec 17, 2017 at 12:48:51 am

[Derek Charles] "I've since dragged the 1080 24max/12avg file and rendered that file to 10max and 4avg and the size is now 1.09GB so I can fit both on one DVD. "
You do realize that it will NEVER play because DVD's don't support HD video!

You need to render to SD MPEG2 if you want to make a playable DVD unless you are just using the DVD for data storage like a USB stick,

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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Derek Charles
Re: Wedding DVD burning file size Vegas Render
on Dec 17, 2017 at 6:01:56 am

Would the 1080 on the DVD just play as 720, or is that a strong NEVER play?
Also, aren't most up to date DVD players equipped to where when inserted, an option comes up as if it were a USB stick or just reading the data off of the disc - so it would have the files available to click on and play, no?


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Nigel O'Neill
Re: Wedding DVD burning file size Vegas Render
on Dec 19, 2017 at 1:47:01 pm

[Derek Charles] "Also, aren't most up to date DVD players equipped to where when inserted, an option comes up as if it were a USB stick or just reading the data off of the disc"

Technically , no. That's not part of the DVD standard. Some players will play DIVX, MOV or WMV straight off a disc, but they are proprietary and uncommon nowadays. For those that do, there is usually a logo on the player. If you are authoring DVD's for public sale, it's best to stick to the standard.

When you author a DVD in DVD Architect, Nero or Power DVD, they convert your files into BUP, VOB and IFO files and create a VIDEO_TS and AUDIO_TS structure that DVD players instantly recognise.

My system specs: Intel i7 7700k 4.20 GHz, GTX570, 16GB RAM, Gigabye Z170 HD3, Vegas Pro 12 (x64), Windows 10 x64 Pro, Vegas Production Assistant 1.0, VASST Ultimate S Pro 4.1, Neat Video Pro 2.6


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John Rofrano
Re: Wedding DVD burning file size Vegas Render
on Dec 19, 2017 at 4:09:03 pm

[Derek Charles] "Would the 1080 on the DVD just play as 720, or is that a strong NEVER play?"
That's a very strong never. As Nigel said, the DVD spec support MPEG2 video only. You can use NTSC 720x480 @ 27.97fps interlaced, PAL 720 x 576 @ 25fps interlaced, or 720x480 @ 24fps progressive. That's it. Audio can be PCM or AC3 for NTSC, and PCM, AC3, & MPEG2 audio for PAL. Those are your options.

The fact that any particular DVD player can accept other formats is totally non-standard and not advised unless you are making this for your personal use and own one of those DVD players and are fine with the disc not working in the future when the DVD player breaks and the new one doesn't support those nonstandard formats anymore.

If you want to author in HD you need to Blu-ray not DVD.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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Derek Charles
Re: Wedding DVD burning file size Vegas Render
on Dec 19, 2017 at 9:01:57 pm

Thank you - I've got the DVD issue down now.
There was a bitrate problem stated above I'm still not sure on if anyone else can chime in -
Is there quality loss from rendering a1080 file to 1080 file with the same bitrate settings? Like if you do with a jpeg?
I'm asking this for color grading and "rendering to a new track" for smoother playback on cpu.
Rendering to a new track keeps it at the original XAVCS codec...
But say I stuck with the 1080 mp4 with 4Mb avg and 8 Mb max as through the "Internet 1080 HD" render template as a render to new track - file is not as big

When am I losing latitude for color grading, levels, shadows highlights recovery, etc? Should I assume as long as the settings are the exact same I will still be able to adjust the footage without artifacts?
My original is 4k 100M edited on a 1080 timeline


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John Rofrano
Re: Wedding DVD burning file size Vegas Render
on Dec 20, 2017 at 3:37:09 am

[Derek Charles] "Is there quality loss from rendering a1080 file to 1080 file with the same bitrate settings? Like if you do with a jpeg?"
Yes, if the codec is lossy. In your example jpeg is a lossy codec and every time you open the file, change it, and save it, you loose quality. PNG can be a lossless codec so you can change it and save it again and again and retain the original quality. QuickTime actually supports the PNG codec which provides lossless copies.
[Derek Charles] "But say I stuck with the 1080 mp4 with 4Mb avg and 8 Mb max as through the "Internet 1080 HD" render template as a render to new track - file is not as big"
Not a good idea. You will be loosing quality and disk space is cheap. Don't do it.
[Derek Charles] "When am I losing latitude for color grading, levels, shadows highlights recovery, etc? Should I assume as long as the settings are the exact same I will still be able to adjust the footage without artifacts? "
It all depends on the codec. Lossy codecs will loose quality. Lossless codecs will not. The question is, will you see the loss? Rendering back to the same exact format and bit-rate I'm guessing you will not see the quality loss from just one or two generations, just like you don't see the quality loss by re-saving a jpeg until you do it many, many times.

BTW, this is why people use Digital Intermediaries for color grading. They use near-lossless or visually-lossless codecs. The most popular intermediaries are Apple ProRes for the Mac, CineForm for Windows, and Avid DNxHD for both Mac and Windows. I would do all "render to new track" using a lossless digital intermediary codec or a vey high bitrate codec like Sony MXF 422 @ 50Mbps. That's why on the Mac, everyone color grades with Apple ProRes and doesn't even thing twice about it.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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Derek Charles
Re: Wedding DVD burning file size Vegas Render
on Jan 9, 2018 at 2:09:06 am

I'm noticing the quality loss you speak of from the 4avg and 8max - It is very unpleasing macroblocking - and added grain. I'm still confused in how I see users with the same camera, same 1080p and have a significantly lower 1080 file size uploaded, with higher quality playback... bitrates for Vimeo, YouTube etc.

I'm not worried about disk space, I'm worried that people complain my large files on Vimeo take too long to load and if I upload to Facebook, the large file size will play back longer at 360p while its still trying to load and catch up to the 1080p stream. My original and Vegas stock render template says 24 max and avg 12 - and my video looks way better, just still to big in file size for online playback... How are these people able to have significantly lower file sizes and I dont see a quality problem?


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John Rofrano
Re: Wedding DVD burning file size Vegas Render
on Jan 10, 2018 at 10:10:14 pm

[Derek Charles] "How are these people able to have significantly lower file sizes and I dont see a quality problem?"
It all depends on the source video. Is it well lit? Is the camera locked down? Lots of motion or noise in the video will result in a lower quality render. There are a lot of factors to consider that affect encoding.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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Graham Bernard
Re: Wedding DVD burning file size Vegas Render
on Jan 11, 2018 at 5:33:22 am

[John Rofrano] "It all depends on the source video."
Agreed John. I posted this “hours” earlier And eventually all the FXing produces some major heavy-lifting for the encode and a requirement for greater BitRates and consequently larger files.

Rule One: Capture with the best lighting you can. I have several kit bags of lighting. A set of LED Panels; top lights; fill and LED spots. I’ve also rigged an anonymous floor standing standard lamp I rigged with a controllable incandescent. I like that one!

Rule Two: Use a heavy or at least a “stiff” Tripod. I have a 10 year old MILLER with carbon fibre legs which I use rigged to a Dolly.

.
.
.
.

Rule 1000: Optimise Encode appropriate/suitable for platform.

But hey, these rules are only guidelines. Personally I’d swap R1 for R2 😎

And again Derek, do take up John’s suggestion of a DI. This DI then becomes THE file to encode from. For me this gives me a cleanly QA media created the best way I can output. And then I can encode knowing what I’m dealing with. Also the encode times are massively reduced.

* Grazie

Video Content Creator and Potter
PC 7 64-bit 16gb * Intel® Core™i7-2600k Quad Core 3.40GHz * 2GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 560 Ti
Cameras: Canon XF300 + PowerShot SX50HS Bridge


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Derek Charles
Re: Wedding DVD burning file size Vegas Render
on Jan 9, 2018 at 2:06:22 am

Since I've lowered my bitrates significantly, I'm noticing a big quality loss sticking under 4avg and 8max
- It is very unpleasing macroblocking - and added grain. I'm still confused in how I see users with the same camera, same 1080p and have a significantly lower 1080 file size uploaded, with higher quality playback... bitrates for Vimeo, YouTube etc.

I'm not worried about disk space, I'm worried that people complain my large files on Vimeo take too long to load and if I upload to Facebook, the large file size will play back longer at 360p while its still trying to load and catch up to the 1080p stream.


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Graham Bernard
Re: Wedding DVD burning file size Vegas Render
on Jan 9, 2018 at 5:10:49 am

[Derek Charles] "I'm still confused in how I see users with the same camera, same 1080p and have a significantly lower 1080 file size uploaded, with higher quality playback... bitrates for Vimeo, YouTube etc. "
You’re getting to the point where you’re recognising the complex artistry of rendering. You’ve now introduced another observation that needs to be understood: How can others do this? Prerender preparation needs to be considered. Already John has invited you to create a digital intermediary. Doing this has provided me with many opportunities to make sure my video stream is stable enough to go forward to Render and see how much video noise is present. The freebie s/w BitRate viewer has helped me to understand just where high “noise” areas appear and need further attention. Video noise is a real pain, and can eat up and effect bitrate efficiency. I use the NeatVideo product to smooth out video noise and get my video into a sweet-spot for stable bitrate rendering.

From my own experience, with video and render options that are on the edge or tipping point of size versus quality, there will be no simple, easy-fix for this. It’s good you’re now comparing others quality output. However and until you can directly quizz those that have done the quality you’re seeing, we can only guess. Do recognise that the “Industry” spend millions on developing rendering quality. They employ Render farms and many many hours of offline methods to get great product. Each and every second of capture to Edit are crawled-over to wrangle-in the noise and macro-blocking Monster!

Although my own rendering experience is limited to DVD, MP4, WMP and variations of MOV and digitital intermediaries of Lagarith and SONY MXF, I’m starting to think that you’ve got a combination of initial video noise, grain and the unfortunate effect of the processing of average bitrate of high BitRate. This is now getting into the area of segmented average and constant BitRate preparation.

Interesting thread.

* Grazie

Video Content Creator and Potter
PC 7 64-bit 16gb * Intel® Core™i7-2600k Quad Core 3.40GHz * 2GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 560 Ti
Cameras: Canon XF300 + PowerShot SX50HS Bridge


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Derek Charles
Re: Wedding DVD burning file size Vegas Render
on Jan 9, 2018 at 8:08:18 am

Thanks.
I'm starting to understand
- perhaps you can chime in on my issue with Neat Video
in this thread - https://forums.creativecow.net/thread/24/1020140


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Graham Bernard
Re: Wedding DVD burning file size Vegas Render
on Jan 9, 2018 at 8:35:09 am

[Derek Charles] "I'm starting to understand"
Good. Derek, you need to be more consistent and forensic with your analysis. I write this stuff down. Leaping all over place will get all of us disconfabulated! Well, me at least. And, yes I did
[Derek Charles] "perhaps you can chime in on my issue with Neat Video in this thread"
where I read a bit more of your wrangling with Mercalli and NeatVideo. I can only garner that your original footage is both wobbly and noisy/grainy? Yes? In which case you’re starting off with a bit more of a problem than just BitRates and streaming - comparing others quality output. I also read there you’re using both Merc and NV chained together. This implies you’re giving the renderer/encoder the maths task of doing both sets of wrangling at the same time? Yes? Well, and in which case, don’t! Do one and then do the other. My preference would be for firstly NV, this’ll get you nicely FLAT images and THEN Mercalli. But, try reversing the order. You’ll soon enough find out.

Derek, we’re starting to understand the pickle you’ve got yourself into. Hopefully you can see it through and be happy with the outcomes. Oh yeah, any chance you can upload a small sample so I can view the issues? At the moment I’m thinking I’m second guessing just what it is we’re up against - yes?

* Grazie

Video Content Creator and Potter
PC 7 64-bit 16gb * Intel® Core™i7-2600k Quad Core 3.40GHz * 2GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 560 Ti
Cameras: Canon XF300 + PowerShot SX50HS Bridge


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Graham Bernard
Re: Wedding DVD burning file size Vegas Render
on Jan 9, 2018 at 8:46:48 am
Last Edited By Graham Bernard on Jan 9, 2018 at 9:27:34 am

Don’t know what happened to my reply.... I’ll try it again:

[Derek Charles] "I'm starting to understand"

Good. Derek, you need to be more consistent and forensic with your analysis. I write this stuff down. Leaping all over the place will get all of us disconfabulated! Well, me at least. And, yes I did

[Derek Charles] "perhaps you can chime in on my issue with Neat Video in this thread"

where I read a bit more of your wrangling with Mercalli and NeatVideo. I can only garner that your original footage is both wobbly and noisy/grainy? Yes? In which case you’re starting off with a bit more of a problem than just BitRates and streaming - comparing others quality output. I also read there you’re using both Merc and NV chained together. This implies you’re giving the renderer/encoder the maths task of doing both sets of wrangling at the same time? Yes? Well, and in which case, don’t! Do one and then do the other. My preference would be for firstly NV, this’ll get you nicely FLAT images and THEN Mercalli. But, try reversing the order. You’ll soon enough find out.

Derek, we’re starting to understand the pickle you’ve got yourself into. Hopefully you can see it through and be happy with the outcomes. Oh yeah, any chance you can upload a small sample so I can view the issues? At the moment I’m thinking I’m second guessing just what it is we’re up against - yes?

* Grazie

Video Content Creator and Potter
PC 7 64-bit 16gb * Intel® Core™i7-2600k Quad Core 3.40GHz * 2GB NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 560 Ti
Cameras: Canon XF300 + PowerShot SX50HS Bridge


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