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Canon C200 Cinema RAW Lite Clips - PC Users

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Paul Ballain
Canon C200 Cinema RAW Lite Clips - PC Users
on Oct 13, 2017 at 5:44:51 pm

For those that have a Canon C200 and recorded RAW, has anyone had success importing the .dpx file sequence in VP14 or VP 15 that the Canon Cinema Raw Development software converts the raw files to? I tried for the first time last night and after three different conversion attempts (conversion from the Canon RAW files from the camera to the DPX RGB 10-bit file type) and neither version of Vegas said it would not a valid image sequence file type. I'm on a PC so I don't have the option to convert to Apple ProRes 4444. I hate to have to use Resolve just to convert my clips to use in Vegas when I've read Vegas should be able to handle .dpx image sequences. Thanks!


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Aaron Star
Re: Canon C200 Cinema RAW Lite Clips - PC Users
on Oct 14, 2017 at 5:03:43 pm

I would post a few files in a gdrive or dropbox share and see if others in the forum can help you figure this out.

Is there an option to convert from RAW to EXR, or 16-bit BMP?

I only have VP13 and am able to process .dpx files as an imported image sequence from an F35.

Here is the media info on the 2 different formats of my files.

Format : DPX
Format version : Version 2.0
File size : 11.9 MiB

Image
Format : DPX
Format version : Version 2.0
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Color space : RGB
Bit depth : 16 bits
Compression mode : Lossless
Stream size : 11.9 MiB (100%)
Color primaries : BT.709
Transfer characteristics : BT.709
Frame rate : 24.000

And these from a film scan.

Format : DPX
Format version : Version 1.0
File size : 190 MiB
Writing library : TCS Scan V1.0

Video
Format : DPX
Format version : Version 1.0
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Color space : RGB
Bit depth : 10 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Compression mode : Lossless
Stream size : 190 MiB (100%)
Writing library : TCS Scan V1.0
Transfer characteristics : Printing density


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Terry Hogan
Re: Canon C200 Cinema RAW Lite Clips - PC Users
on Oct 17, 2017 at 6:30:02 am

Here is a Canon C200 Cinema RAW Light file if anyone wants to try to see what can be done with it. http://tbf.me/a/cPz6X
Canon's Cinema RAW Development Software is needed to make actual RAW adjustments to the file which is here: https://www.canon-europe.com/support/consumer_products/products/digital_cin...
I also have a Windows 10 computer so I can't get the Canon software to render out a ProRes version of the adjusted RAW file and I have only been able to get Resolve not Vegas Pro to read the file. It does seem like a MAC computer will be necessary to render a ProRes version. On Windows computer, the Canon RAW Development software can't render ProRes and the file formats it does render I have not been able to get Vegas Pro 14 to recognize. Canon has an Avid plugin that allows AVID to edit the Canon RAW Lite files. I hope the Vegas development team are looking into getting a Canon RAW Lite plugin from Canon that will work with Vegas Pro.
Resolve can open the Canon Cinema RAW Lite file but it can't yet make actual RAW adjustments so if your exposure and white balance are perfect then you can edit your RAW file in Resolve or render the file for us Windows user to a DNxHD file that can be edited in Vegas Pro. However, this workflow loses all the advantages of a RAW file and you need the full version of Resolve 14 to render the 4K Canon RAW Lite file to its full 4096x2160 resolution. The free Resolve version only renders to a UHD resolution with black bars.


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Paul Ballain
Re: Canon C200 Cinema RAW Lite Clips - PC Users
on Oct 17, 2017 at 12:56:04 pm

Thanks Terry for the upload. At least you're experiencing the same issues I am as a Windows user. I wish Windows had a ProRes plugin that would allow export to the ProRes 4444 format. I am currently using the "Resolve to color correct--->render to UHD file-->Vegas to edit" workflow when I shoot RAW but as you said, it's too bad this removes alot of the advantages of the RAW file. The final image does look better compared to the 4K MP4 (albeit the 4K MP4 still looks amazing), but with the workflow time and the sheer size of the RAW files and the fact that the workflow loses most of the advantages of the actual RAW file, I shoot mainly 4K MP4 now until (and hopefully) Vegas creates the plugin that will allow the Canon RAW .CRM files to work directly in Vegas. If Resolve can currently read them, there's no reason all other high end NLE's shouldn't be able to as well. At the minimum, I hope Resolve creates the ability to fully edit the Canon RAW file prior to rendering to a format Vegas can open.


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Marco Baer
Re: Canon C200 Cinema RAW Lite Clips - PC Users
on Oct 17, 2017 at 1:46:52 pm

Can't you offer a download of a few DPX frames instead? That would be only some MB and would have been quickly tested.

DPX sequence import into Vegas Pro usually works fine here so far.


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Terry Hogan
Re: Canon C200 Cinema RAW Lite Clips - PC Users
on Oct 17, 2017 at 8:10:27 pm

http://tbf.me/a/1U1FQ Here are a couple of DPX files with separate WAV files that have to be manually synced to the video files.


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Marco Baer
Re: Canon C200 Cinema RAW Lite Clips - PC Users
on Oct 17, 2017 at 9:27:09 pm

Mmh, while other types of DPX files work fine for me in Vegas Pro, these certain ones do not work. Don't know why.

The only difference I see is the DPX files I usually work with don't have any framerate information, but these Canon ones are said to be -0.000 fps (according to MediaInfo). Maybe there is something in the header which makes Vegas Pro to refuse them.


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Paul Ballain
Re: Canon C200 Cinema RAW Lite Clips - PC Users
on Oct 17, 2017 at 9:55:28 pm

Thanks Terry for posting the DPX files. Yep, Vegas can't handle the new DPX render from the Canon Cinema Raw Development software. That is really the only option if you're a PC user. Frustrating!


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Terry Hogan
Re: Canon C200 Cinema RAW Lite Clips - PC Users
on Oct 18, 2017 at 10:21:09 pm

I spoke with Canon's 1-855-CINE-EOS (1-855-246-3367) technical support. The representative told me that I was the first one to complain about the C200's RAW file and problems on a Windows PC. She said that she believed that Premiere can now process the DPX files and assemble them with audio WAV files back into complete clips. She also said if I had a MAC computer the Cinema RAW Development program could output a ProRes 444 clip. She had never heard of Vegas Pro. I asked that she submit a request to the Canon development team that they program Canon Cinema RAW Development to output a DNxHR 444 for Windows (since they output a ProRes file for MAC) and that they add to the firmware update coming out in February the ability for the C200 to record an XF AVC 10 bit 422 file internally for those of us who don't want to deal with the current RAW file problems. I know DaVinci Resolve can output DNxHR on a Windows computer so Canon should be able to as well. Maybe if others message Canon and Vegas Pro development teams they will do something for us.


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Marco Baer
Re: Canon C200 Cinema RAW Lite Clips - PC Users
on Oct 19, 2017 at 9:00:19 am

"I asked that she submit a request to the Canon development team that they program Canon Cinema RAW Development to output a DNxHR 444 for Windows"

Bear in mind Vegas Pro would need a MOV wrapper for this kind of video. It does not read MXF wrapped DNxHD/HR.


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Paul Ballain
Re: Canon C200 Cinema RAW Lite Clips - PC Users
on Oct 19, 2017 at 1:40:53 pm

Thanks Terry. I'll contact Canon as well and put in the request, however, just like Macro said, this is as much of a Magix issue as it is a Canon issue. If Premiere and Resolve can handle the export formats from the Canon software (Resolve handles the native .CRW files!), there is NO reason why Vegas Pro shouldn't either. Regarding the .DPX file sequence from the Canon software, there obviously is something different with these that Vegas can't recognize. I'm not techie enough to figure it out but that is obviously more of a Canon issue than a Magix issue...but again, Premiere can read them, Vegas can't. My guess is that Davinci will open up all of the RAW processing in Resolve for the .CRW that they have for Blackmagic RAW video files (not that the Canon software offers much in terms of RAW file editing!) before Canon or Magix do anything about the issue.


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Terry Hogan
Re: Canon C200 Cinema RAW Lite Clips - PC Users
on Oct 20, 2017 at 3:20:02 am

I really think the way that Canon Cinema RAW Development works for Windows is unacceptable. It takes one Canon Cinema Raw Light file that you can make some RAW adjustments to and then outputs numerous small DPX files and puts the audio in numerous WAV files. Then in a program like Resolve you have to import all the numerous DPX files from just one Cinema RAW Light clip and line them up on the timeline. Then line up all the audio WAV files under the corresponding DPX file. Then render that to a DNxHR file to get just one usable clip that can be further edited and graded in Resolve or in Vegas Pro. Canon has always seemed to disregard the Windows PC user vs MAC users. Canon should make Cinema RAW Development output a DNxHR or DNxHR HQ file directly. I can't imagine doing this process for a project where I have a hundred clips or more to edit.


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Aaron Star
Re: Canon C200 Cinema RAW Lite Clips - PC Users
on Oct 20, 2017 at 12:09:20 pm

Processing the Canon DPX files through FFMPEG:

ffmpeg -i A001C007_171001QB_CANON_000000%2d.DPX -vcodec dpx A001C007_171001QB_CANON_%d.dpx

Vegas will read the output dpx format just fine. There is something up with the way canon is writing their dpx format. It could be more updated, or there is an error in the header that the other NLE have just done a work around.

When you import the dpx image sequence into Vegas, set your project to 32-bit FP FULL (View transform ACES RRT sRGB). Then on the import screen/media properties choose frame rate, and color space Sony S-log or s-log2 f65.



From here you can create proxy format for the main image sequence, or render to a new intermediate like Cineform or XAVC-intra.


Rendering to XAVC-intra gives a file 10-bit 422 image:

General
Complete name : C:\Users\Aaron\Desktop\avc-intra-test.MXF
Format : MXF
Format version : 1.3
Format profile : OP-1a
Format settings : Closed / Complete
File size : 3.27 MiB
Duration : 83 ms
Overall bit rate : 330 Mb/s
Encoded date : 2017-10-20 12:06:18.000
Writing application : SONY Vegas 13.0.0.453
Writing library : Sony MXF Development Kit (Win32) 4.8.0.113.1

Video
ID : 2
Format : AVC
Format/Info : Advanced Video Codec
Format profile : High 4:2:2 Intra@L5.1
Format settings, CABAC : No
Format settings, GOP : N=1
Format settings, wrapping mode : Frame
Codec ID : 0D01030102106001-0401020201323001
Duration : 83 ms
Maximum bit rate : 240 Mb/s
Width : 4 096 pixels
Height : 2 160 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 1.896
Frame rate : 23.976 (24000/1001) FPS
Standard : Component
Color space : YUV
Chroma subsampling : 4:2:2
Bit depth : 10 bits
Scan type : Progressive
Color range : Limited
Color primaries : BT.709
Transfer characteristics : BT.709
Matrix coefficients : BT.709


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Paul Ballain
Re: Canon C200 Cinema RAW Lite Clips - PC Users
on Oct 20, 2017 at 2:02:51 pm

Thanks Aaron for the information! Very helpful. The Canon RAW processing is far too many steps for us Windows users.

1. Process RAW files via Canon software and export .DPX sequence
2. Import .DPX sequence into FFMPEG
3. Export another .DPX sequence from FFMPEG
4. Import FFMPEG .DPX sequence into Vegas for editing

As Terry said, that process is NOT feasible if the project has many clips and is still too time consuming even if it doesn't. There's not enough time in the day to wait for all of the processing of the files just to GET them into Vegas for editing. I'll be sticking to editing the .CRM files in Resolve until either Canon or Magix come up with a better solution for Windows users. Only downside is we can't export full 4096 x 2160 from the free version of Resolve.


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Aaron Star
Re: Canon C200 Cinema RAW Lite Clips - PC Users
on Oct 21, 2017 at 7:08:41 pm

Magix should support native editing of RAW formats, or simply a utility that conforms RAW formats/image sequences to EXR 2.0. Exr 2.0+ supports various mathematically lossless compression formats. EXR with or with out compression would be the intermediate format. Then we could edit RAW footage in the ACES color space.

Vendor agnostic RAW (means support all, figure it out, there are not that many) -> EXR 16-bit or 32bit Linear Float -> Output to desired SDR/WDR formats, or back to EXR sequence to maintain information and future proof.
->Proxy if needed - but improving playback of EXR would be better due to the way sub-sampling is support to work with EXR.

This would be a great Vegas workflow and up the game. Probably the only way Vegas would gain an edge over the competition.

Better ACES capable effects would be needed as well. There are a host of 32-bit float effects in the drawer, but when deployed they clearly are effecting standard video levels or 8-bit. There are threads on ACES workflows in Vegas, but all use a kludge method of working around the main CC interface.

Sound would be handled separate, in a similar float format fashion.


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Aaron Star
Re: Canon C200 Cinema RAW Lite Clips - PC Users
on Oct 21, 2017 at 7:33:45 pm

1. Process RAW files via Canon software and export .DPX sequence
2. Import .DPX sequence into FFMPEG
3. Export another .DPX sequence from FFMPEG
4. Import FFMPEG .DPX sequence into Vegas for editing


Actually 2 and 3 are the same, so its really only a 3 step process.

I agree that Canon or Vegas should allow direct import of RAW, or vegas to support Canons DPX sequence.

There is a software DEV kit on the Canon site, can't imagine Vegas dev's would not be able to resolve this quickly.

One other thing to note is that the RAW exports should be worked in the ACES, or 2020 color space to maintain the information from RAW format. Otherwise you are clipping information by squeezing it into the 709 color space.

Here is an interesting ratings article showing % of color space coverage by monitor type.

http://www.rtings.com/tv/tests/picture-quality/wide-color-gamut-rec-709-dci...

Of course your monitor cable supported level, GPU/video output device capabilities, and monitor input supported levels all need to align. Your Vegas project settings also needs to align to the correct project mode.


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