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Chroma Key, "spill through" problems

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Jeff David
Chroma Key, "spill through" problems
on Sep 12, 2017 at 5:14:11 pm

I know this is a Vegas forum but I am using Sony Movie Studio Platinum 13.

I am having trouble getting a clean chroma key effect. I get what I am calling, “bleed through” no matter how much I rearrange the lights. I adjust the background to where there is no white showing through but then that makes white holes in my head/hairline/me that I attempting to composite. I have previously had good luck and many successful chroma key pulls but lately, always end up w some bleed through. Yup – I tried to put the lights exactly as before when I got good keys but oddly, now get bleed through.

Of course, I am aware that it’s caused by uneven lighting. However, when I make the adjustments to lighting, I seem to always still end up with some “bleed through” no matter how many times I rearrange the lighting.

I spent a lot of time looking at videos on YouTube and on the internet, that address this issue. With perfect lighting – I understand no other adjustments would be required but as mentioned, I have continuously experimented with different lighting positions and still always get some bleed through so I was looking for other ways I might be able to tweak the bleed throughout. FYI – I have 2 professional lights Promaster that I paid $500 total for and they are on stands 6 feet high at about 45-degree angles to the front of me. I then have the long fluorescent tube lights like you see in ceilings at schools etc. that cost $20 each that I set behind me, pointed at the green screen diagonally at about a 33-45-degree angle. The fluorescent lights are 4 feet long and there are two fluorescent lights per fixture and I hang them vertically on stands that are about 5 feet tall so they go from 5 feet to about a foot from the floor. They light up the green screen well. I saw a video instruction on YouTube that said you can use the fluorescent lights if you are too cheap to spend another $500 for the Promaster lights.

I ended up using the cookie cutter and placed a triangle around me and that helped, except for the lower left which I could not cover with the triangle cookie cutter. I moved my image of myself to the left to cover up the bleed through in the corner but it looks goofy pushed into the corner like that.

There are many tutorial vids on general green screening, but I notice many of them also do not get a 100% clean key. There were not many videos that address this issue. The few I found talked about adjusting “levels” and when in “mask” mode making black blacker and white whiter – um I think they were referring to when in “brightness and contrast” plugin? Another video talked about, “keylight, screen matt, adjust clip black, adjust clip white” but that was some different software prog I don’t have. Perhaps that is no different than adjusting, “brightness/contrast”? I tried what tweaks I had access to but I found it screwed up other parts of the image. As an example, I adjusted the brightness and it made my suit black when It’s dark blue.

Another video talked about using motion track to crop and then enlarge myself . . . uh well I didn’t quite follow the rest of it.

I learned there is, “roto” that can be done but it’s extremely time-consuming - and I don’t know if Sony Movie Studio Platinum 13 even has that feature.

I am approx. 5 feet from the green screen and the Promaster lights are two to three feet to the front of me at about 45-degree angle – one on each side.

I’ll try moving the lights out farther and sitting farther from the green screen.

Any other suggestions/fixes? Of course, I'll also continue to attempt perfect lighting.


Here's a few of the videos I watched:







creating masks in vegas












Lenovo quad core i7 16gb of ram, Windows 8.1 MS 13 64 bit Thumbnail is view out of the Olde North Church window where the signal lanterns were hung, as in, "1 if by land 2 if by sea" looking across the Charles River to the Charlestown Naval Yard where rebels awaited the signal April 18th, 1775.


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Jeff David
Re: Chroma Key, "spill through" problems
on Sep 12, 2017 at 7:44:22 pm

I found this video today and made adjustments in my camcorder that were recommended in the video. I'll let you know how it works out once I shoot some video w the new camcorder settings.

The person in the video says (he's talking about DSLR of course but I have most of the same settings in the camcorder):

turn sharpness, contrast and saturation all the way to the left

then turn sat up one or two notches (my camcorder only has on notch up or down so I can't turn it up a hair).

turn sharpness up a hair

mentioned something about using cinestyle = flat neutral look - add one notch of sharpness

In dslr iso should be 160 - I can't adjust this in my camcorder

aperature should be at f5.6 - I set my camcorder to this which is a large increase from where it was set at 1.8

record in other than native - record in 4.22 - that one is over my head w out more study so I haven't done anything with that. I guess that's a setting on my camcorder. duh?? No time to research right now.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed!

Lenovo quad core i7 16gb of ram, Windows 8.1 MS 13 64 bit Thumbnail is view out of the Olde North Church window where the signal lanterns were hung, as in, "1 if by land 2 if by sea" looking across the Charles River to the Charlestown Naval Yard where rebels awaited the signal April 18th, 1775.


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Jeff David
Re: Chroma Key, "spill through" problems
on Sep 12, 2017 at 7:45:13 pm

https://www.videomaker.com/video/watch/tips-and-techniques/18007-qa-best-ds...

That's the link to the video on dslr settings.

Lenovo quad core i7 16gb of ram, Windows 8.1 MS 13 64 bit Thumbnail is view out of the Olde North Church window where the signal lanterns were hung, as in, "1 if by land 2 if by sea" looking across the Charles River to the Charlestown Naval Yard where rebels awaited the signal April 18th, 1775.


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Jeff David
Re: Chroma Key, "spill through" problems
on Sep 12, 2017 at 9:28:29 pm

The result with the adjustments in the camcorder was not good. I got a good key effect, but only by using cookie cutter and the image was not as sharp, was not bright and had a dull look to it.

Lenovo quad core i7 16gb of ram, Windows 8.1 MS 13 64 bit Thumbnail is view out of the Olde North Church window where the signal lanterns were hung, as in, "1 if by land 2 if by sea" looking across the Charles River to the Charlestown Naval Yard where rebels awaited the signal April 18th, 1775.


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Steve Rhoden
Re: Chroma Key, "spill through" problems
on Sep 12, 2017 at 10:08:34 pm
Last Edited By Steve Rhoden on Sep 12, 2017 at 10:09:37 pm

The bottom line is that you need a proper professional chroma key / Keying plugin,
plain and simple..... And the two best you can get for Vegas Pro (im not familiar with the
Vegas Studio Versions
) are Boris Continuum Complete Chroma Keyer and Hitfilm Ignite Chroma Keyer!

Im not saying it will solve the worst keying shots, But you have a better leverage on quality keying when
you have either of these two juggernauts in your toolbox.

Steve Rhoden (Cow Leader)
Film Maker & VFX Artist.
Owner of Filmex Creative Media.
Samples of my Work and Company can be seen here:
http://www.facebook.com/FilmexCreativeMedia


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Jeff David
Re: Chroma Key, "spill through" problems
on Sep 25, 2017 at 5:45:14 pm

OK thanks.

I have been using cookie cutter and that helps as of course the area that has to be matched becomes much smaller.

I've got some pretty good key's now.

I'll try to get that software you mentioned in the future.

Lenovo quad core i7 16gb of ram, Windows 8.1 MS 13 64 bit Thumbnail is view out of the Olde North Church window where the signal lanterns were hung, as in, "1 if by land 2 if by sea" looking across the Charles River to the Charlestown Naval Yard where rebels awaited the signal April 18th, 1775.


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Francois Pénzes
Re: Chroma Key, "spill through" problems
on Sep 26, 2017 at 11:13:32 am

Hi Jeff

I have a feeling that you are still using a Vixia HV40 or something similar.

There lies most of your problem with green-screening . The vast majority (I suspect all) of consumer grade cameras have a color sampling of 4.2.0.

Colour sub-sampling harks back to the early days of colour TV transmission. The eye is more susceptible to tone rather than colour. Therefore all digital colour information is overlaid on a high-res black and white (low bandwidth) image.

The pattern system used to overlay the colour information on the B&W base image is known as sub-sampling.

If you want to save time and grief, I suggest that you get yourself a camera that can shoot in 4.2.2 This is the highest quality for a decent price that you can achieve for finer keying and colour correction.

Keying with 4.2.0 material will produce ragged edges - especially if lit badly.

Once material is shot 4.2.0 it cannot be up-sampled to, let say, 4.2.2 (don't even think about going 4.4.4) via a codec because the underlying sub-sampling pattern remains unchanged.

For more information on color sampling, go to:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroma_subsampling

In short, if you start with better original material, the less you have to tinker with it whether it be chroma keying or colour correction... or anything else for that matter.

And this concludes the educational part of this conversation.

Cheers

PC Win 10 Pro 64-bit 16gb Intel® Core™i7-2600k Quad Core 3.40GHz NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 550 Ti
Cameras: Canon XF305 + Canon XH-A1

''When the cutting stops, the editing begins...''


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Jeff David
Re: Chroma Key, "spill through" problems
on Sep 26, 2017 at 1:49:36 pm

Thank you for the insightful and informative info. It's very much appreciated.

Yes - I have a Vixia HV40. Good to know that it is lousy for anyone who wants to do chroma key. Of course, it's so old now that it's archaic. I've had it about seven years or so.

If the background I am keying against is stable, I have been able to get some good keys. The problem of jagged edges mostly occurs when the background is not stationary. Using cookiecutter to reduce the area that needs to be matched has helped. In the end, I will probably simply delete my on-screen image in shots where the background is not static as it's not really necessary that I be in every shot.

But it's good to know the problem, "might" be with my camera and not my lighting, since I have been very careful to follow the online tutorials on green screen lighting. But you may have solved the mystery.

Another poster recommended getting Boris Continuum or Hitfilm (assuming they work with Sony Movie Studio Platinum 13) - do you think that would solve the problem of the lousy 4.2.0?

IF those programs do not work with Sony Movie Studio 13 then I would guess there is some other program that might.

And yes - the Canon Vixia hv40 is archaic by now so I do see the need for a new camcorder.

t

Lenovo quad core i7 16gb of ram, Windows 8.1 MS 13 64 bit Thumbnail is view out of the Olde North Church window where the signal lanterns were hung, as in, "1 if by land 2 if by sea" looking across the Charles River to the Charlestown Naval Yard where rebels awaited the signal April 18th, 1775.


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Francois Pénzes
Re: Chroma Key, "spill through" problems
on Sep 27, 2017 at 12:17:08 am

Hi Jeff

As stated in my previous post, you can't upscale a 4.2.0 file. The jagged edges are there to stay.

That being said, using a software like Hitfilm will have a positive effect on your final result since it has, in my humble opinion, a way better chroma key engine than Vegas. But as I said before, it's always better to start with a higher quality product in order to get quality results.

Viewers are more inclined to go for a quality product. The better your product, the more viewers you will get. As time goes by, those viewers are more and more discriminating.

Cheers !

PC Win 10 Pro 64-bit 16gb Intel® Core™i7-2600k Quad Core 3.40GHz NVIDIA GEFORCE GTX 550 Ti
Cameras: Canon XF305 + Canon XH-A1
Blackmagic HyperDeck Studio Mini

''When the cutting stops, the editing begins...''


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Jeff David
Re: Chroma Key, "spill through" problems
on Sep 27, 2017 at 9:14:39 pm

OK thanks - I understand what you are saying now - going to the better chroma key software is not the answer - going to the 4.2.2 camcorder is the answer.

Your information has been very enlightening and solves a mystery. All along - I thought it was my fault due to lighting and so I kept changing the lighting around. I think my lighting is pretty good and the issue most likely was the lowly 4.2.0.

This has been a good piece of information to know!

Lenovo quad core i7 16gb of ram, Windows 8.1 MS 13 64 bit Thumbnail is view out of the Olde North Church window where the signal lanterns were hung, as in, "1 if by land 2 if by sea" looking across the Charles River to the Charlestown Naval Yard where rebels awaited the signal April 18th, 1775.


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Jeff David
Re: Chroma Key, "spill through" problems
on Sep 26, 2017 at 2:17:13 pm

I just noticed, Sony Movie Studio Platinum 13 has some Hitfilm integrations so it looks like Hitfilm might work with Sony Movie Studio Platinum 13. I only took a quick look but will study this further.

Adding a HitFilm project to the timeline


You can add HitFilm projects to your Movie Studio Platinum project in the same way you add other media files: simply add the HitFilm project (.hfp) file to your project.

For more information, see "Adding media files to your project."

OpenAdding HitFilm effects to an event


1.Right-click the video event where you want to add the effects and choose Add HitFilm Effect from the shortcut menu.

A HitFilm project (.hfp) file is created in the folder where your media file is saved using the same base name as your media file, and the event's active take is updated to use the HitFilm project file. For more information, see "Using takes as alternate versions of events."

If you have multiple events selected, the event under the mouse pointer is used.


2.HitFilm Express starts so you can edit your HitFilm effects as necessary.

For more information about using HitFilm Express, please refer to its documentation.


3.When you're finished editing, save your HitFilm project and close HitFilm Express. The event's active take is updated with the edited version of your HitFilm project.


OpenEditing HitFilm effects on an event


1.Right-click a video event that is using a HitFilm project (.hfp) as its active take and choose Edit in HitFilm from the shortcut menu.


2.HitFilm Express starts so you can edit your HitFilm effects as necessary.

For more information about using HitFilm Express, please refer to its documentation.


3.When you're finished editing, save your HitFilm project and close HitFilm Express. The event's active take is updated with the edited version of your HitFilm project.

Lenovo quad core i7 16gb of ram, Windows 8.1 MS 13 64 bit Thumbnail is view out of the Olde North Church window where the signal lanterns were hung, as in, "1 if by land 2 if by sea" looking across the Charles River to the Charlestown Naval Yard where rebels awaited the signal April 18th, 1775.


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