Will Vegas GPU support EVER be updated? Looking for Magix reply
I know Magix people keep an eye out on this forum so I am going to ask it outright.
Are they developing updated GPU support for newer cards or should we expect it to stay old technology?
Would love a detailed answer, since some of us have been wanting it for years now.
Thanks in advance!!!
Xavier (Scott) Francis
Mind's Eye Audio/Video Productions
Scott, four years ago, I built a screamer of a PC in hopes of faster renderings. At the time, I thought that the latest and greatest video card (Nvidia GeForce GTX 680) with a great number of CUDA's would do the trick. But, those CUDA's were of no use because either the driver and/or Sony Vegas Pro 12 didn't have the right coding to work together.
But, just this past month, I received an update from Nvidia and voila, I know have a working GPU with all its CUDA's to handle faster renders.
So, my point is either wait in hopes your card will get an update or purchase a newer GPU card that probably costs much more that does currently have their act together which Vegas Pro can incorporate the GPU's driver to get those faster renders.
If you do change your GPU to a card that does work it's magic, let us know here in this forum so others will know that your potential new card works.
[Bruce Brent] "But, just this past month, I received an update from Nvidia and voila, I know have a working GPU with all its CUDA's to handle faster renders. "
Bruce, what Nvidia driver did you download and what version of Vegas are you running? It might be useful to know the pairing.
My system specs: Intel i7 970, GTX570, 12GB RAM, ASUS P6T, Vegas Pro 12 (x64), Windows 7 x64 Ultimate, Vegas Production Assistant 1.0, VASST Ultimate S Pro 4.1, Neat Video Pro 2.6
My understanding is that Vegas has not had an update support for Nvidia cards in years. I have been using AMD cards since they have been the only one's that are recommended for newer card support.
I would LIKE to get newer Nvidia cards to work with all my Adobe software and actually have better preview (not really as concerned with render times) of 4K in Vegas. That is why I asked if Vegas is looking to ever update it's GPU capabilities.
As Nigel asked, what version of Vegas and Nvidia card are you using, something recent?
Xavier (Scott) Francis
Mind's Eye Audio/Video Productions
Nigel & Scott,
I have Vegas Pro 14, build 201. My GPU is Nvidia GeForce GTX 680, driver update: 12/1/2016, driver version: 188.8.131.5219
I'm running Windows 10 Pro, keeping up with the latest updates.
I hope this helps.
[Scott Francis] "My understanding is that Vegas has not had an update support for Nvidia cards in years. I have been using AMD cards since they have been the only one's that are recommended for newer card support."There are two places that GPU acceleration comes into play. One is FX and timeline playback. Vegas Pro uses OpenCL to accelerate FX and timeline playback and AMD has always had the edge over NVIDIA because NVIDIA pushes their proprietary CUDA API. Vegas Pro does not use CUDA but NVIDIA also implements OpenCL and I have read that the newer NVIDIA cards do as good a job as AMD these days. Vegas Pro will use the latest GPU's in this area.
The second is for rendering. Many people deliver MPEG4 and this is where Vegas Pro falls short and only supports incredibly old (6 year old) graphics cards. Hopefully MAGIX will fix this but no one knowns when or if they will.
[Scott Francis] "I would LIKE to get newer Nvidia cards to work with all my Adobe software and actually have better preview (not really as concerned with render times) of 4K in Vegas."Adobe use to only support CUDA but Apple is shipping their new Mac Pro's with AMD cards so Adobe was kind of forced to support OpenCL better so I'm not sure how much better performance you will get with Adobe by moving to NVIDIA. I would look for some benchmarks that clearly show that the current Adobe suite runs better on NVIDIA. It may still work better, I just don't know.
If you want to buy an NIVIDA card I wouldn't let Vegas Pro stop you. The OpenCL support should be just as good as the AMD cards now. Look around for benchmarks unless someone here has had both cards and can testify to one being better than the other. Remember that back when a lot of Vegas Pro editor switched to AMD it was because AMD was a lot faster than NVIDIA at OpenCL. I'm not sure that is still true with the latest batch of cards.
These are some tests, not sure if it moves things on much though, better than nothing.
Until someone makes up a better, say, red car mk. 2 test or equivalent that can stress the newer cards such that the fps for both Nvidia and Amd cannot reach the test projects max fps then testing outside of vegas is still an approximation (may be still close) to what we may get within vegas.
The reason I say this is since we are using vegas, then the results of any testing is more relevant if done in vegas, even if different results apply in other nle's.
An independent test of AMD vs Nvidia open CL etc ...
OpenCL benchmark, primate labs ...
Cuda benchmark, primate labs ...
It's important for everyone to understand how the GPU acceleration has been done over the years. As John mentioned, it's in multiple places. Vegas itself seems to use it for compositing to some effect, and any plug-in can use it as well. If you generalize GPU support to both "compute" and "3D" support, Vegas accelerates using OpenCL in the first place, OpenGL in the second place. So many, many plug-ins get at least one of these kinds of accleration.
Video CODECs can also support GPU acceleration, but historically, most have not. Sony's AVC plug-ins did, but the effect wasn't profound. And what acceleration there was worked with any old OpenCL acceleration you had available.
The alternative MainConcept AVC CODEC was different. It ignored Vegas system settings, for the most part, about your GPU, and offered hard-wired acceleration for either CUDA (the nVidia proprietary general-purpose GPU computing language) or OpenCL (the industry standard, more today than ever). But here's the problem: they didn't just hard-wire these accelerations, they limited them to very specific graphics chips, all made before 2011. In short, they kind of short-circuited the whole point of OpenCL or even CPU -- being device independent -- and locked in the acceleration to just these GPUs, pretty much Radeon HD 4xxx, HD5xxx and HD6xxx from nVidia, and GeForce 4xx and 5xx boards. Much has happened in the last 6-7 years.
I wrestled with the upgrade for quite awhile: to upgrade or to keep my AMD HD6970 (one of the fastest for Vegas). I recently pushed the issue this year, because I managed to kill one of my three monitors in the move to a new house, and replaced it with one of these crazy ultra-wide-screen displays, 34" at 3440x1440 (same basic height as my two 2560x1440 screens). The older cards topped out at 2560 pixels across.
Over all, this was a good decision. When I'm editing, things are much faster. Red car demo playback is smoother than it was -- like butter -- even at 32-bit. But rendering MainConcept AVC, just a bit longer. Of course, the MainConcept GPU rendering engine wasn't free, it did have a small effect on the quality of the video. But I used it for most things, web videos and that kind of stuff. I could have kept the old card around, I have one of those higher-end X79 motherboards with several GPU-capable PCIe slots. But I didn't really think it was worth the power, in my case. If you have two GPUs, Vegas can use either, but not both together, at least as set in the Vegas options menu. I'm not certain what the MainConcept plug-in does when it finds two GPUs.
Anyway, I believe the bad decision to lock this plug-in to GPUs was MainConcept's nasty way of getting their licensees to pay extra for new versions. Thing is, those new versions never even arrived. Main Concept has changed hands on a pretty regular basis, and every new owner has had a different strategy for what they wanted to do with it. It was founded in Germany as a commercial venture behind a shareware MPEG-2 encoder that the two founders had created. They were bought by DivX, Inc in 2007. DivX was bought by Sonic Solutions in 2010. Then Rovi bought Sonic Solutions in 2011. Rovi spun DivX back out in 2014, and they were bought by NeuLion (Plainview, NY) in 2015. Under Rovi, at least, they didn't seem to do anything with AVC, but did develop an HEVC CODEC. No idea what NeuLion has in mind.
Anyway, Magix would presumably need to license either an updated GPU-accelerated CODEC from NeuLion, someone else's, or develop their own. The latest data sheet from NeuLion (http://www.mainconcept.com/fileadmin/user_upload/datasheets/AVC_SDK_DATASHEET.pdf) doesn't even mention GPU acceleration for the encoder... perhaps not a thing they're working on, and it would be kind of silly to continue to push that tech for 2010-ish GPUs only. No idea if Magix acquired some source-code access to Sony's AVC CODEC, but it would take lots of work to get it as fast as MainConcept, pretty specialized work.
Hi Dave, thank you for your input. I still have all of my Amiga PCs!
Peoples attachment to this MainConcept mp4 GPU encoder is a dated point of view. That encoder was "neat" and improved things back when our CPUs were much slower. There have been improvements in CPU instruction sets and other things that make the GPU encoder not necessary any more.
" bad decision to lock this plug-in to GPUs was MainConcept's nasty way of getting their licensees to pay extra for new versions. "
This is true about licensing, but what happened about 6 years ago is that most every encoder manufacturer decided that running the encoder on the GPU was not thing to do. Mainly because so much of the benefit of LGOP codec happens outside the extreme parallel operation of the GPU. If you do not believe me, watch some YouTube videos by AMD and Mainconcept on the subject around 5 years ago. Our PCs simply do not need the GPU to do this task anymore.
OpenCL on the other hand improves math functions far beyond what the CPU can do alone. This is still beneficial to the encode process on many levels.
If encoding your final render is your biggest pain, then your CPU and overall system are likely to blame, and not so much your GPU encoder.
Just because your GPU is not "loaded" up during render, does not mean it is is not being utilized when needed. If you have a slow CPU, and fast GPU, your GPU could waiting on the CPU for more calculations. Most GPU utilization graphs are averages over long interval, while your GPU could hitting 100% for fractions of a second. But since the average shows a low percentage, people blame the software for not utilizing the GPU effectively. While in fact it's the general user that thinks his budget choice in hardware is infallible.
Very well said Aaron, you are accurate on all those points!
Steve Rhoden (Cow Leader)
Film Maker & VFX Artist.
Owner of Filmex Creative Media.
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