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Pro Res to Vegas 13

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William Mims
Pro Res to Vegas 13
on May 19, 2015 at 9:26:46 pm

I am shooting Pro Res on Atomos Samurai Blade with a Sony EX3 for a client that edits on Mac in Pro Res.
I want to use the Samurai and edit on Sony Vegas Pro 13. When I open his material on Vegas it looks jumpy and the picture can not keep up in sync. Since I am planning a feature film to be edited on my Vegas with F/X, green screen, multi-layers, etc. I do not want to compress any more than necessary. I have 24GB of RAM. What codec is my best option. Does Atomos have a codec that works better with Vegas than Pro Res or Avid DNxHD?
Thanks for your input.

Mims


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Russ Froze
Re: Pro Res to Vegas 13
on May 20, 2015 at 5:33:02 am

Hi,
Sorry to say but there are but two codecs for Atomos products. For myself I find either codec works well enough to edit in Vegas. May I ask if the recording are in 4K?
Russ Froze


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William Mims
Re: Pro Res to Vegas 13
on May 21, 2015 at 12:49:03 am

As much as I would like to use 4K, no. However I am using an anamorphic lens that allows no pixel wasted (Phoney blacked out letter boxing), thus getting about 2554 x 1080 with an aspect ratio of 2.36 - so better than 1920, less than 3860. For this project, it will be fine. Next time 4K.

Which codec to you prefer to use on Vegas, Pro Res or Avid DNxHD?

Thanks,

Mims


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Russ Froze
Re: Pro Res to Vegas 13
on May 21, 2015 at 1:38:18 am

It depends on the number of files to be used. For simplicity and compatibility for my Mac brethren I use Prores. Keeping in mind the 32 bit Quicktime limitations in windows. It's not the length of the files, rather it's the number that causes a bottleneck. If the plan is to use many takes then I use DNxHD. Also I keep the bitrate in Vegas down to 8 Bits for cutting and turn on the 32 bit for color correction and finishing. Toggling between preview modes also helps the editing process. It is a tradeoff for the task at hand.
Russ Froze


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John Rofrano
Re: Pro Res to Vegas 13
on May 23, 2015 at 11:52:05 pm

[William Mims] "However I am using an anamorphic lens that allows no pixel wasted (Phoney blacked out letter boxing), thus getting about 2554 x 1080 with an aspect ratio of 2.36"
What do you have your project properties set to? What are the properties of your events on the timeline? You will get better performance if you project properties match your source video exactly.

Also you didn't tell us about the specs of your computer. We know you have 24GB of memory but what you probably don't realize is that QuickTime on the PC is 32-bit and limited to using 2 GB of memory so your 24GB of memory is irrelevant because it's not being used. Vegas Pro can only use 2GB for QuickTime files.

What CPU and GPU do you have? Theses are the important components when trying to edit with Vegas Pro.

Of course, you could always just buy a Mac. if you are collaborating with people on the Mac then you really should own one otherwise cross-platform compatibility is always going to be an issue.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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William Mims
Re: Pro Res to Vegas 13
on May 26, 2015 at 2:55:55 am

Just to be clear, my client using Pro Res does his own editing on a Mac. I do not edit his material, however I have my own project that I will record in DNxHD for my Sony Vegas Pro 13. I do not need to get a Mac.
John to answer your question:
CPU is Intel(R) Core(TM) i7 CPU 940 @ 2.93 GHz. GPU is a GeForce GTX 285.
Only able to use 2GB may explain why Pro 13 with several layers (Green screen, several images on screen at once) has crashed the edit when it got longer than a couple of minutes.
How do I changes these limitations short of buying a new system?
The project will need to be 90 minutes long with many layers in some places. I do not want crashes long after I am into the edit.

Mims


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John Rofrano
Re: Pro Res to Vegas 13
on May 26, 2015 at 3:56:26 am

[William Mims] "CPU is Intel(R) Core(TM) i7 CPU 940 @ 2.93 GHz. GPU is a GeForce GTX 285."
I'm guessing that Vegas Pro can't even used that GPU. I'm not sure it would use any GPU with QuickTime files anyway so buying a better GPU won't help in this case.
[William Mims] "How do I changes these limitations short of buying a new system? "
Stop using QuickTime. That's the only solution. If you are using a PC you should be editing with PC native containers (AVI, M2T, MFX, etc.). If you are on a Mac you should be using QuickTime (MOV). You DO NOT want to use QuickTime with a PC. It's a simple as that (which is why I recommended that you get a Mac). People who use PC's should not buy cameras or devices that shoot QuickTime. This is a format optimized for the Mac not the PC (at least not for Vegas Pro users).

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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William Mims
Re: Pro Res to Vegas 13
on May 26, 2015 at 12:59:36 pm

Am I to understand that DNxHD and ProRes are confined to QuickTime? (QuickTime would not be my choice because of the compression. I want as much quality as I can get to the final master.) Those are the only choices? I am fine with (AVI, M2T, MFX, etc.) but the Atomos will only record DNxHD or ProRes. Which one, if either, will allow me to work in AVI M2T MFX? That is really what I am trying to figure out.
Thank you for helping me get this worked out so I can use Vegas, with Atomos and my EX3.

Mims


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William Mims
Re: Pro Res to Vegas 13
on May 26, 2015 at 1:11:11 pm

John- Let me add this to my last post:
In rereading the entire post, I see the subject of QuickTime came from another person in the thread so I see why you said "stop using QuickTime". So QT would not be my choice to begin with. I just need the right one to get the most quality and compatibility with Vegas in order to keep it from crashing when a lot of layers are added to the picture timeline. I have contacted Sony Creative Software asking why Pro 13 crashes so much to no avail. A simple reply saying you are using the wrong output would have been nice from them.

Mims


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John Rofrano
Re: Pro Res to Vegas 13
on May 26, 2015 at 7:27:19 pm

[William Mims] "I see why you said "stop using QuickTime". So QT would not be my choice to begin with."
But QuickTime WAS your choice by buying the Atomos. Don't you see? You purchased a device that shoots QuickTime files? That was not a good idea if you plan to edit with Vegas Pro. See my other reply for a longer answer.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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George Dean
Re: Pro Res to Vegas 13
on Feb 29, 2016 at 4:10:23 pm

Hi Mims,

I use an Atomos Samurai Blade hooked up to an old Canon. Either ProRes 422HQ or DNxHD220X. First step in my workflow is to render the originals in CineForm (Filmscan 2 [yes, I know this is overkill]) in an .avi container. From there I keep it in CineForm until the delivery format selected. Vegas Pro 13 seems to like this.

Or, render an intermediate in Sony XAVC-Intra (mxf). I wrestled with the MOV thing attempting to keep the 10 bit 4:2:2 various ways, until I finally decided to just add the extra step. I'm not changing my camera, I'm not changing the Atomos, I'm never going to a MAC, and I doubt I will change from Vegas. It is what it is, so I improvised and overcome! It may not be the best, but it is working for me. Just a thought.....


Best Regards......George


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John Rofrano
Re: Pro Res to Vegas 13
on Mar 1, 2016 at 1:12:51 pm

[George Dean] "First step in my workflow is to render the originals in CineForm (Filmscan 2 [yes, I know this is overkill]) in an .avi container. From there I keep it in CineForm until the delivery format selected."
This is exactly what buying the Atomos Samurai Blade avoids if you own a Mac. It shoots edit ready files for Mac editors. No transcoding required.

For many years the Mac workflow was to take whatever format the camera shoots natively, and transcode it to ProRes 422 as the first step. Now camera manufacturers are making cameras and recorders that shoot ProRes 422 directly so there is no need for the transcoding step on the Mac anymore.

If you are a PC editor, however, you should do exactly what George is doing... convert the QuickTime files to a PC friendly format. CineForm AVI is a great choice for Vegas Pro editors.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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John Rofrano
Re: Pro Res to Vegas 13
on May 26, 2015 at 7:24:26 pm

[William Mims] "Am I to understand that DNxHD and ProRes are confined to QuickTime?"
Both Avid DNxHD and ProRes can use MXF or QuickTime containers. I believe the only way to get DNxHD and ProRes into an MXF container is on Avid for Mac. This is why it's not an option for Vegas Pro users on Windows.
[William Mims] "QuickTime would not be my choice because of the compression. I want as much quality as I can get to the final master."
QuickTime has nothing to do with compression. Quicktime is just a container. You can place any video and audio you want into it. If you put uncompressed video in QuickTme you will have lossless video without any compression. QuickTime is not a video format. It's just a container like AVI is. It's what you put into it that determines the video quality and Apple ProRes can yield extremely high quality.
[William Mims] "Those are the only choices? I am fine with (AVI, M2T, MFX, etc.) but the Atomos will only record DNxHD or ProRes. Which one, if either, will allow me to work in AVI M2T MFX? That is really what I am trying to figure out."
The Atomos records DNxHD or ProRes in a QuickTime (MOV) container. Those are your only choices and neither one of those is optimal for Vegas Pro.

I'm not sure that you are getting my point so let me state it again, hopefully more clearly: People who own PC's and edit with Vegas Pro should not purchase the Atomos. I can't be any clearer than that. The Atomos is designed for Mac editors. It shoots Mac QuickTime files. Vegas doesn't handle QuickTime files well when you have too many of them. This is due to the 2GB limits of 32-bit QuickTime on Windows. So I would not buy an Atomos unless I was editing on a Mac in which case the ProRes files are exactly what I want to edit with Apple Final Cut Pro X.
[William Mims] "Thank you for helping me get this worked out so I can use Vegas, with Atomos and my EX3."
So you have a Sony EX3 which shoots XDCAM EX intraframe codec that Vegas edits like butter, and you want to capture QuickTime files? This doesn't make sense. If you are going to purchase Sony cameras and edit with Sony software you should stick with the Sony XDCAM EX format.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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James Magda
Re: Pro Res to Vegas 13
on Feb 29, 2016 at 3:27:58 pm

John,

I just ordered an Atomos Samurai Blade to edit its output on Sony Vegas Pro 13 based on this link of yours:

http://johnrofrano.com/training/video-tutorials/avid-dnxhd-template-for-veg...

But now in this forum you're saying NOT to. Which is right?

Jim


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Russ Froze
Re: Pro Res to Vegas 13
on Feb 29, 2016 at 7:58:39 pm

[James Magda] " Which is right?"

James, it is not a problem both Apple and Avid codecs work fine. If the plan is to edit on a Mac then use the Prorez option and if planning for PC use the DnxHd option in the Atomos product. Now I stated fine not great. Preview quality depends on the power of the edit station. Both codecs are 10 bit so they need a little extra from the CPU processor.

At the end of the day what is desirable is the best image quality for the job at hand. Think final delivery and choose the codec based on that. Capturing at the highest settings make it possible to strip colour info encode to 8 bit, but colour can not be added after. Also consider a proxy workflow. Think negatives instead of digital files.
Russ Froze


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James Magda
Re: Pro Res to Vegas 13
on Feb 29, 2016 at 8:23:06 pm

This is my edit station:

Intel Quad Core i5-6600 Processor 303Ghz - 3.9Ghz Turbo
ADATA Extreme DDR4 2400MHz Memory - 16GB
NVIDIA GeForce GTX 960 - 2GB GDDR5
ADATA Performance 240GB SSD
Western Digital Black 1TB - 7200RPM 3.5" HDD (where my files will reside)
Windows 10 Home Premium 64-Bit

Do you think I'm good to go? Or do I need MORE POWER, as Tim Taylor would say.


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Russ Froze
Re: Pro Res to Vegas 13
on Feb 29, 2016 at 9:38:55 pm

Hi, it's a fair machine but for the processor being an I5 not I7 and for vegas a AMD video card seems better suited. That said I still run a AMD hex core Phenom and because I've use Fusion since ver 4, I have a Quardro 4000 video card. Many will say Vegas does not use the cuda cores, that is not what I have found. For my system when encoding or preview has been seen to use up to 80% of the cuda cores.

Unless money is no object. There comes a time where decisions need to be made between image input and output. The Blade records 1080P does it not? Then a good choice would be the Avid codec for it suffers not from the 32 bit restrictions of the quicklime decoder. If Vegas is left in the default 8 bit mode there should be a very comfortable editing experience. Now set Vegas to 32 bit colour and things will slow down on this build. Still it should serve the purpose.
Russ Froze


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John Rofrano
Re: Pro Res to Vegas 13
on Mar 1, 2016 at 1:06:20 pm

[James Magda] "I just ordered an Atomos Samurai Blade to edit its output on Sony Vegas Pro 13 based on this link of yours:

http://johnrofrano.com/training/video-tutorials/avid-dnxhd-template-for-veg.....

But now in this forum you're saying NOT to. Which is right?"
If you read the explanation in my link, I was recommending that Avid DNxHD is a good format for editors who are on a PC and need to collaborate with editors on a Mac. I never said it was a good format for editors on a PC to just use for themselves or to buy a camera that shoots QuickTime.

Here are my *exact* words from the opening paragraph of that tutorial:
"Quite often I’m asked what’s the best format to work with in Vegas Pro when you need to collaborate with Final Cut Pro editors on a Mac. The best codec I have found is the free Avid DNxHD QuickTime codec. The reason I use this codec in addition to it’s superior quality for mastering, is because it doesn’t suffer from the gamma shifts that some other PC codecs have when transferred to the Mac. With Avid DNxHD, you get the gamma levels you expect, and the quality you need."
The rest of the tutorial shows you how to create a Render Template, so the recommendation is to render to Avid DHxHD to send to a Mac.

Here are the facts:
  • Vegas Pro chokes on too many QuickTime files.
  • Does Vegas Pro work with editing QuickTime? Yes (to a point).
  • Can you render to QuickTime Avid DNxHD? Yes (if you make a template like in my tutorial).
  • Should you use QuickTime as your main editing format with Vegas Pro: No! Absolutely NOT!!!
QuickTime is the native format on a Mac. If you want to buy a camera that shoots QuickTime, my advice is to also buy a Mac. Camera manufacturers build cameras that shoot Apple ProRes 422 to make a Mac workflow easier. If you buy one of these cameras and don't have a Mac, you are defeating the purpose of owning a camera that shoots QuickTime ProRes which is all ready to drop onto your Final Cut Pro timeline without any transcoding.

If you need to edit QuickTime on a PC and you don't have too many files, Vegas Pro is fine. For example, I usually shoot stage performances. Last weekend, I shot a coffee house style performance where the musician played 2 sets. I had exactly two 45 minute files to edit (I just kept the camera rolling during each set). Had these been QuickTime files I would have been fine with these 2 files (they were not). Had I had a lot of QuickTime files from starting and stopping the camera, Vegas Pro would have had problems.

So I never recommended that PC editors work with QuickTime. My recommendation was, that if you had to collaborate with Mac editors, then you need to send them QuickTime files, and Avid DNxHD is the QuickTime format that is closest to the Apple ProRes 422 that Mac editors use but PC editors can't create.

Hope that clears things up.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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George Dean
Re: Pro Res to Vegas 13
on Mar 1, 2016 at 4:14:57 pm

@ William Mims...."I am shooting Pro Res on Atomos Samurai Blade with a Sony EX3 for a client that edits on Mac in Pro Res.
I want to use the Samurai and edit on Sony Vegas Pro 13.
"

I think William is shooting on the Atomos for his client, but also wants to use the ProRes.mov in Vegas for his own purpose. If this is the case, he probably has the best tool and only needs to make something like CineForm intermediates for his own purpose.

William, just for clarity, are you sending the Atomos .mov to your client as is, or do you first want to edit them in Vegas, then send them on to your client as ProRes.mov? If this is the case......you are never going to get there. Vegas can not produce a ProRes.mov file. You could make a DNxHD.mov file for the client, but in that case you may want to record in DNxHD220X from the Atomos. However, regardless of how you would do these, if you tough the video in Vegas and render it out, it is going to be different inside in some way from the original ProRes. Maybe that difference is OK with your client, maybe not.


Best Regards.....George


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George Dean
Re: Pro Res to Vegas 13
on Mar 1, 2016 at 4:17:46 pm

tough = put

Damm, I can't figure out how to edit post?!?!?


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William Mims
Re: Pro Res to Vegas 13
on Mar 1, 2016 at 5:52:44 pm

Yes, George, I was sending the 'raw' files to the client in another state for him to edit. All was well, then after that client I wanted to use the Atomos for my own projects-that's when I ran into all the problems. I love the look of the Blade footage on the Atomos monitor-just can't get Vegas to work. I think I have come to the end of the line with Vegas Pro. When I looked at the blade I don't recall Atomos advertising: "This will not work with Sony Vegas/Windows platforms. Only works with a Mac."
As I make the transition to feature film 4K needs with a different camera like a AJA Cion or Black Magic Ursa Mini(?), the Sony Vegas Pro software system may have to be left behind for something better suited for the volume of 4K files and 90 minute+ project lengths.
I appreciate everyone's input on this thread, I have learned a lot about the world of computer editing. Thanks.

Mims


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George Dean
Re: Pro Res to Vegas 13
on Mar 1, 2016 at 6:19:47 pm

@ Mims......"I love the look of the Blade footage on the Atomos monitor-just can't get Vegas to work. I think I have come to the end of the line with Vegas Pro."

Of Course you can still use the Samurai Blade as a monitor and use any of the focus or scope tools, just don't record and use the native Sony codec on a card. Or, again, do as the Mac users did for a long time, render to an intermediate file that Vegas likes. I do this often with m2ts, avi, mxf, and mp4 files, as I often edit in sections.

On the other hand, if I'm only going to put 20-30 clips into events in Vegas, I can take them straight from the Atomos as DNxHD220X and even on my old machine I can get a reasonable preview for editing (although, yes, with more complicated effects I can bring Vegas to it's knees, but that is my old machine, not Vegas.




@ Mims.....'When I looked at the blade I don't recall Atomos advertising: "This will not work with Sony Vegas/Windows platforms. Only works with a Mac."'

You are probably correct. They will advertise what it works with, not what it will not work with. They will list what they support and what not. It's not the Atomos, it's not Vegas, it's the 342 bit restriction of Quicktime in Windows. I will admit, it is somewhat of a hook, but there any many of these type hooks in the industry between OS, codec, ownership, platforms, programs, and various bugs!



@ Mims......"As I make the transition to feature film 4K needs with a different camera like a AJA Cion or Black Magic Ursa Mini(?), the Sony Vegas Pro software system may have to be left behind for something better suited for the volume of 4K files and 90 minute+ project lengths."

Final Cut, Adobe, Avid, etc. and others.....the trick is to match the camera output with the platform input on a box that will run them in an OS that supports them, and that your client can use. I work for myself only, if you have clients, they are your first concern.....I'm not saying anything here you don't already know. Bottom line, I agree, sometimes (most of the time!) I'm confused on all the in's and out's......but there are work arounds editors have been using to get the job done. Good Luck with Your Projects.


Best Regards.....George



Mims


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Russ Froze
Re: Pro Res to Vegas 13
on Mar 3, 2016 at 6:55:12 am

William,
I have and use Atomos Ninja and Assassin, record Prores HD and 4K at the highest bitrate. Edit on PC with Vegas Versions 7-13. Have no issues with the atomos codec. So far I have determined that there are issues with editing on a system. I have yet to learn the specific issues. I need to know exactly what the problems are. Writing "I can't get it to work" is insufficient information. Has a Prores decoder been installed? Black magic Design Desktop video will install a codec that vegas can use to read Prores and encode 10 bit 422 .mov files that are Mac friendly.
Russ Froze


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John Rofrano
Re: Pro Res to Vegas 13
on Mar 3, 2016 at 1:08:14 pm

[William Mims] "When I looked at the blade I don't recall Atomos advertising: "This will not work with Sony Vegas/Windows platforms.""
Let's be very clear: It works with Vegas Pro you just can't use a lot of QuickTime files due to the 32-bit memory limitation. I would not use it for a project with a lot of files but if you were shooting an event that was one or two long recordings you should be fine.

Atomos would be incorrect if they said that it didn't work with Vegas Pro.
[William Mims] "Only works with a Mac.""
This has nothing to do with PC vs Mac. Adobe has their own QuickTime libraries on the PC so they don't have the problem that Sony has. This is a Vegas Pro limitation because Sony uses the 32-bit QuickTime libraries. I'm sure it would have cost them some licensing fees to develop their own and since none of their cameras shoot Quicktime, why would they?

So saying it only works with a Mac would also be false advertising on Atomos' part. They advertised correctly. You just need to know the limitations of your own software which Sony does not advertise. That's why there are user supported forms like the Creative COW. ;-)

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasstsoftware.com



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William Mims
Re: Pro Res to Vegas 13
on Mar 3, 2016 at 1:17:14 pm

Amen, John about Creative Cow. Thanks.

Mims


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