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Sony Vegas Pro 12 Video Proxies and 60fps rendering

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Jamie Carsten
Sony Vegas Pro 12 Video Proxies and 60fps rendering
on Apr 7, 2015 at 11:01:19 am

Hi guys,

I have a few quick questions on Sony Vegas Pro. Firstly, how do I make a video proxy if my file is huuuge? I get an error when trying to make a proxy of a file over a few hundred MB’s. I tried making the part of the video I wanted to use a sub-clip, but “Create Video Proxy” is not available on sub-clips for some reason. Does anyone know why that is?

I am having trouble with all of my pans appearing choppy in post. This is filming at 1080P 30FPS on my GoPro Hero 4 Black. I would film 60FPS but I have two concerns. Firstly, I do not see a 60FPS render template. How then do I export a 60FPS for YouTube? Would great appreciate maybe a screenshot of a template I can replicate? Also, can 60FPS play on modern TV’s? If so, what would be the best render for 60FPS on a TV?

My second concern is that I have watched 60FPS on YouTube and my computer (16GB RAM) has struggled with playback. Does 60FPS require more processing power/bandwith to play? If I film in 60FPS but drop it into a 30FPS project will that still help?

Thanks a lot!
Jamie


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John Rofrano
Re: Sony Vegas Pro 12 Video Proxies and 60fps rendering
on Apr 9, 2015 at 1:56:56 am

[Jamie Carsten] "I wanted to use a sub-clip, but “Create Video Proxy” is not available on sub-clips for some reason. Does anyone know why that is?"
Yes, because sub-clips aren't real clips at all. They are just in and out points on a piece of media so there is no way to make a proxy from just metadata. You need to make a proxy out of the media that the sub-clip is defined on.
[Jamie Carsten] "I am having trouble with all of my pans appearing choppy in post. This is filming at 1080P 30FPS on my GoPro Hero 4 Black."
You need to learn how to shoot 30p. It's not like shooting 60i (as you have seen). Your pans need to be slow and deliberate. If you are shooting fast action I would not use such a slow frame rate.
[Jamie Carsten] "Also, can 60FPS play on modern TV’s?"
In general, No. NTSC Broadcast TV is 29.97 fps. You may find a particular brand of TV that boasts that they can playback 60p if you plug a memory stick into them but 60p is not a standard you can count on. Blu-ray supports 60p but only at 1280x720. If a TV can't handle 60p I assume the Blu-ray players feeds it 30p anyway.
[Jamie Carsten] "Does 60FPS require more processing power/bandwith to play?"
Yes, it requires your computer to process twice the frames per second and it requires twice the bandwidth to transmit those 60 frames every second as does 30 fps.
[Jamie Carsten] " If I film in 60FPS but drop it into a 30FPS project will that still help?"
It will give you more options to work with but at the end of the day, you will still be delivering 30 fps. If you keep enable resample on, it might blend the frames and make the motion look smoother but it may also cause ghosting of there is too much motion. If you disable resample it will drop every other frame which is no different than shooting 30p to begin with.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Jamie Carsten
Re: Sony Vegas Pro 12 Video Proxies and 60fps rendering
on Apr 11, 2015 at 8:30:29 am

Thanks John. Your answers are much appreciated and as helpful as always. I did pan reasonably slowly, I think my shaky skills exacerbated matters though! I think right now my best bet is to stick with 30fps, as I'm struggling to watch 60 fps online (Australian internet is terrible!) and even play-back smoothly on my 16GB, i7-4790 custom computer. :(

Whilst I have you, could I trouble you for a final few questions?

1. I used my GoPro to film two seperate clips, one at 1080p and one at 2.7k. Putting each of the clips into MediaInfo, it tells me both have the same bit rate (45mbps). Is that right? I would have thought 2.7k would have a higher bitrate due to being a higher resolution?

2. For the same reasons as creating 30fps videos, I'll probably stick to 1080p right now. My internet and computer just can't handle 2.7k sadly. Will I experience a better quality video however if I film in 2.7k, then drop into a 1080p Vegas project? Or alternatively, film in 2.7k, drop into a 2.7k Vegas project, then render at 1080P? I just want the best 1080P quality I can get. I'm not sure filming/editing in 2.7k makes a difference though if I'm ultimately rendering out at 1080P?

3. With GoPro producing 45 mbps bit rates, would you recommend I set the bitrate when rendering to match this? I do want to have the best quality video possible. Would the video be better quality if I rendered at 50-100mbps, or will this not make a difference if the recording quality was not there to begin with?

4. Lastly, I am doing a time lapse video right now using the best quality GoPro images I can. The resolution is 12MB with a screen resolution of 4000x3000. How do I work out the optimum bitrate to render this at? Again, I'd like to keep maximum quality whilst keeping the file size as low as I can.

Thanks so much again for your help.
Jamie


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John Rofrano
Re: Sony Vegas Pro 12 Video Proxies and 60fps rendering
on Apr 11, 2015 at 1:38:39 pm

[Jamie Carsten] "I think right now my best bet is to stick with 30fps, as I'm struggling to watch 60 fps online"
This is why 60i is so great. You get the temporal motion of 60 fps in a 30 fps container. I don't know what everyone's obsession with 60p is. For capturing fast motion it's great but for every day shooting it makes no sense to me.
[Jamie Carsten] "1. I used my GoPro to film two seperate clips, one at 1080p and one at 2.7k. Putting each of the clips into MediaInfo, it tells me both have the same bit rate (45mbps). Is that right? I would have thought 2.7k would have a higher bitrate due to being a higher resolution?"
Bit rate and resolution have nothing to do with each other. While it does make sense that you should use more bits to represent more resolution, nothing says that you have to do this. DV 720x480 and HDV 1920x1080 use the exact same bit-rate 13GB/hour.
[Jamie Carsten] "2. For the same reasons as creating 30fps videos, I'll probably stick to 1080p right now. My internet and computer just can't handle 2.7k sadly. Will I experience a better quality video however if I film in 2.7k, then drop into a 1080p Vegas project? Or alternatively, film in 2.7k, drop into a 2.7k Vegas project, then render at 1080P? I just want the best 1080P quality I can get. I'm not sure filming/editing in 2.7k makes a difference though if I'm ultimately rendering out at 1080P?"
Yes you'll get better quality by shooting at a higher resolution even though you are delivering at a lower resolution. Just like shooting HD and delivering SD will give you higher quality SD than shoot SD as the source. Starting for more information is always better than starting with less information.
[Jamie Carsten] "3. With GoPro producing 45 mbps bit rates, would you recommend I set the bitrate when rendering to match this? I do want to have the best quality video possible. Would the video be better quality if I rendered at 50-100mbps, or will this not make a difference if the recording quality was not there to begin with?"
I would only render at the same bit rate for archive purpose. Just because you shoot at a high bit rate doesn't mean you should deliver at that rate. The delivery rate should be appropriate for the deliver medium. I know people get crazy about HD on YouTube but more people are watching those videos on their 4" phone than a computer monitor so it really cracks me up when people angst over this. Rendering at a higher bit rate than your camera used to acquire the video adds no quality and just wastes disk space.
[Jamie Carsten] "4. Lastly, I am doing a time lapse video right now using the best quality GoPro images I can. The resolution is 12MB with a screen resolution of 4000x3000. How do I work out the optimum bitrate to render this at? Again, I'd like to keep maximum quality whilst keeping the file size as low as I can."
This is where you trade off bit rate with resolution. You need enough bits to accurately represent the image at the resolution you have chosen to render in. Experiment with what works best for you. Start with a high bit rate and lower it until you notice a change in quality and the back off to the previous bit rate. How low you can go will depend on how much motion and change there is from image to image. Static images can be represented at lower bit rates so it's hard to say what bit rate to use because it depends on the content.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Jamie Carsten
Re: Sony Vegas Pro 12 Video Proxies and 60fps rendering
on Apr 12, 2015 at 6:01:35 am

Thanks JR. I'll experiment with different bit rates and see how I go.

What bit rate do you generally render at for 1080P on YouTube? I did try Vegas' default for 1080P (24mbps max, 12mbps avg) but found that did give me quite a lot of grain when playing back on my comp full-screen. As you say though, on YouTube when most people watch on mobile devices it would probably be sufficient.

Do you do constant bit rate mainly or variable bit rate? My problem with variable is I never know what to change one to if I change the other. For example if I change the average bps to 50mbps, I never know what I should make the max mbps. :s

Anyhoo, thanks again for your valuable insight.

Cheers
Jamie


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John Rofrano
Re: Sony Vegas Pro 12 Video Proxies and 60fps rendering
on Apr 12, 2015 at 3:36:25 pm

[Jamie Carsten] "What bit rate do you generally render at for 1080P on YouTube? I did try Vegas' default for 1080P (24mbps max, 12mbps avg) but found that did give me quite a lot of grain when playing back on my comp full-screen. As you say though, on YouTube when most people watch on mobile devices it would probably be sufficient."
I don't deliver 1080p to YouTube. I deliver 720p. It has been well established that it's difficult to tell the difference between 720p and 1080p on HD TV's up to 32 inches. After 32 inches you should really use 1080p but below that they are almost indistinguishable which is why a lot of HD TV's smaller than 32 inches are 720p. Likewise when I watch a video full screen YouTube video, I always select the 720p setting because I can't tell the difference between it and 1080p on my computer monitor so why waste the bandwidth.

I laughed when YouTube announced they are supporting 4K. I have no idea who will be watching YouTube videos on a 4K screen. If you like delivering 1080p that's up to you, but I never watch 1080p videos on YouTube, I always use the 720p setting because I hate when a video stops to buffer. I would rather watch a low quality video with no pauses than a high quality video that keeps stopping every 2 minutes to buffer (I usually cancel the video at that point and move on).
[Jamie Carsten] "Do you do constant bit rate mainly or variable bit rate? My problem with variable is I never know what to change one to if I change the other. For example if I change the average bps to 50mbps, I never know what I should make the max mbps. :s"
I always use variable bit rate with 2-pass. The average sets the file size. The max determines how high you allow the bit rate to go. Too high a bit rate will stutter on some computers so it's important to not make the max too high. The min is obviously how low you will allow the bit rate to drop so that other frames can go above the average to the max. I use an average of 6-8Mbps for 720p video for YouTube.

It's like anything else... you have to know your audience. If you think people will be watching your videos at full resolution on large screens and expect high quality than that should be your goal... but the term "it's YouTube video" doesn't invoke images of high quality in my mind. Everyone knows YouTube video is always recompressed by YouTube and it the quality is never expected to be good because if you're watching on a 4" phone, it really doesn't have to be to look great. You also need to consider the bandwidth of your audience. If they don't have the bandwidth to stream 1080p video then it doesn't matter what it looks like, it will be unwatchable.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Jamie Carsten
Re: Sony Vegas Pro 12 Video Proxies and 60fps rendering
on Apr 15, 2015 at 3:15:19 am

Thanks JR. Very helpful indeed! I shall follow your footsteps and abandon 1080P for YouTube. :)

Cheers
Jamie


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