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Kirk Wood
5GB for 20min 1080p video?
on Jan 20, 2015 at 7:30:00 pm

Is this normal? If not, what should I be aiming for? I have this exact same video rendered at a lower bit rate (8MBs) but have been experimenting for best Youtube quality:render/upload time ratio.

I have slow upload speed (1MBs) so uploading such a file takes considerable time which I may need for other things.

I've tried using Handbrake to compress with a previous video but the picture was horrid and blurry. Looked like 320p.

Rendered using Movie Studio 13. I decided to go with 50MBs bitrate which in hindsight in probably a bit high for Youtube, but I figured uploading the best quality and letting Youtube do it's thing would be a better way of going about doing it. Would doing 20MBs a better decision? I'm aware the recommended is 8MBs but the Youtube video just looks too blurry for my tastes.

Also, two pass or single pass? From my understanding two-pass would be better as it encodes better whilst also reducing file size, albeit longer render time.

The main problem I have with all of this is, is because I use the same PC for everything so that longer rendering times reduces opportunity to create new content. Same goes for the uploading.


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John Rofrano
Re: 5GB for 20min 1080p video?
on Jan 25, 2015 at 3:36:30 am

HDV 1080 video is 13GB/hour so 5GB for 20 minutes sounds about right to me. File size is controlled by bitrate. The higher the bitrate the larger the file. Quality is affected by frame size, bit rate, and encoding method. 25Mbps 1080 HDV is the same quality as 16Mbps 1080 AVCHD because AVCHD uses more efficient encoding. As you can imagine, the AVCHD file will be smaller at the same quality as HDV because it uses a lower bitrate due to it's better compression. Two pass encoding with create better quality Variable Bit Rate (VBR) files because it allocates bits better. This helps with low bit rate files but is a waste of time with high bit rate files.

You are correct that you should send YouTube as high a quality file as you think you need but no higher. Since quality differs based on content, you need to experiment with your content to see what bit rate is best for you.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Kirk Wood
Re: 5GB for 20min 1080p video?
on Jan 25, 2015 at 1:15:45 pm

Thank you for your response.

Since posting this I have uploaded a few more videos and reduced the file-size by about 2GB by playing around with the bit-rate. As luck would have it, however, this is no longer an issue for me as our ISP upgraded our upload speed.

"Two pass encoding with create better quality Variable Bit Rate (VBR) files because it allocates bits better. This helps with low bit rate files but is a waste of time with high bit rate files."

What would you consider to be the bit-rate threshold between using Two-pass encoding and ignoring that option? I've been using two-pass for all renders, varying from 20-50 bit rate. Presumably rendering a video at 50 bit rate as one-pass is sufficient?


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John Rofrano
Re: 5GB for 20min 1080p video?
on Jan 25, 2015 at 1:43:27 pm

[Kirk Wood] "Presumably rendering a video at 50 bit rate as one-pass is sufficient?"
It depends on the bit rate of your source and details in your content. If your source was 16Mbs AVCHD then 50Mpbs doesn't need two pass. If, however, your source was 50Mbps XDCAM you might want to use two pass when rendering back to 50Mbps. Content also plays an important role. More detail requires more bits to represent it.

Here is how it works: Two-Pass makes an initial pass to determine how many bits each frame needs, then it makes a plan to allocate the bits while not exceeding the maximum and keeping the overall rate within the average, then it encodes. If you are already using a bit rate that exceeds what each frame needs, it doesn't matter. Why waste time with two pass (because it does take twice as long) when your bit rate is already high enough to give every frame all the bits it needs.

This is, of course, depending on the content. Content with a lot of details needs more bits to accurately represent those details. A scene of the ocean in motion needs more bits per frame than mountain scenery with no breeze, and both need more than a blank wall in a room. So there is no magic number. It's just that at some point two pass isn't needed anymore when you have enough bits to go around.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Kirk Wood
Re: 5GB for 20min 1080p video?
on Jan 25, 2015 at 2:36:38 pm

Thank you for the explanation, however I'm still uncertain as to it's usage in my scenario (and you'll have to bear with me because this is new to me).

I'm recording with nVidia Shadowplay which saves footage in .avi format, my settings being 1080p, 60FPS at 50MBs.

My project properties are 1080p, field order Progressive Scan, 59.940 frame rate, rendering quality at Best, and deinterlace method as Blend Fields.

When rendering, I select .mp4 format, Mainconcept AVC/AAC, with a custom template based off the existing "Internet HD" template. Profile is set to High, frame rate is set to 59.994, field order is Progressive Scan, aspect ration is at 1.0000, reference frames is 2, deblocking filer is Enabled, Varible bit rate is checked, currently two-pass is checked, and at the moment I am currently experimenting with bit-rate. Progressive download is enabled.

With that in mind, what would your suggestion be in regards to using Two-pass or not? Since it's Youtube, should I go with a lower bit rate at one-pass, or render at the original bit rate with two-pass? Something else.


Sorry for all the questions, just feel it's best to ask someone who actually knows about this. :) I appreciate your time.


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John Rofrano
Re: 5GB for 20min 1080p video?
on Jan 25, 2015 at 5:21:29 pm

[Kirk Wood] "With that in mind, what would your suggestion be in regards to using Two-pass or not? Since it's Youtube, should I go with a lower bit rate at one-pass, or render at the original bit rate with two-pass? Something else."
Your question is stated backward so I want to correct that first. Your options would be:
  1. low bit rate with two-pass
  2. vs high bit rate with one-pass
If you want to play with lower bit rates, definitely enable two-pass. It will make better use of the available bits and give you higher quality. If you are OK with generating 50Mbps files then there is no need to use two-pass.

Gameplay is particularly tough on encoders. In the real world, your eyes can't see all that detail and video cameras don't record it, so video encoders use this to their advantage. That's why they drop information about colors that your eyes are not sensitive to. Computer generated graphics, on the other hand, have extreme amounts of unnatural detail and that causes encoders to work harder to preserve it all. You would actually be better off using a slight (0.002) Gaussian Blur on your master video bus to help the encoder by softening the image ever so slightly. The problem is, I know a lot of gamers don't like this softening. They expect their YouTube videos to look just like their original computer monitors did. So it's a constant trade-off between details and bit-rate.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Kirk Wood
Re: 5GB for 20min 1080p video?
on Jan 25, 2015 at 6:02:20 pm

Oops, yes, that's what I meant.

Well, I'll play around with it a bit more and see what happens. Thank you very much for your advice.


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Nick McMahon
Re: 5GB for 20min 1080p video?
on Jan 28, 2015 at 1:58:38 pm

great post Kirk.... that saves me asking lots of same questions... hope you don't mind me posting on your thread..?

John... My footage is extreme sports action jumping from aircraft with lots of people movement (obviously) shot with Gopro mainly at 720p 60fps but some at 120fps experimenting for slo-mo quality using the 'Flux' which comes with GoPro studio 2.5 (makes for much smoother slow motion although it's more ideal if the camera is fixed and that is rare as I'm part of the action 99.9% of the time, but it still improves on what it's like without Flux).

As I've been working on my project I've been rendering to Sony AVC/MVC .MP4 using the 'Internet 720' template and not playing with the settings as I don't yet fully understand them.

1. This gives me a pretty good end result although I'd like to know if I can improve on the quality..?

2. Have you done a tutorial on customising render template settings and what each setting will change and why you might want to change it..?

3. I'm about to add in some 1080 footage at end of project... should I downscale to 720 when I convert to avi cineform codec in GoPro studio..?

cheers

Nick... BASE1268

3...2...1...C ya


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John Rofrano
Re: 5GB for 20min 1080p video?
on Jan 28, 2015 at 8:54:33 pm

[Nick McMahon] "1. This gives me a pretty good end result although I'd like to know if I can improve on the quality..?"
Quality can be adjusted by increasing the bit rate and/or using the Two-Pass option which will make better use of the available bits.
[Nick McMahon] "2. Have you done a tutorial on customising render template settings and what each setting will change and why you might want to change it..?"
No, I haven't and Sony does't even document what all of the parameters are for. I don't know why they let you tweak parameters without documentation but I usually leave the templates as they are with the exception of adjusting the bit-rate when needed.
[Nick McMahon] "3. I'm about to add in some 1080 footage at end of project... should I downscale to 720 when I convert to avi cineform codec in GoPro studio..?"
Using CineForm is a great idea. If GoPro Studio does a better job of resizing then I would use that. This will also make your render go faster because Vegas Pro won't have to resize.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Nick McMahon
Re: 5GB for 20min 1080p video?
on Jan 28, 2015 at 11:45:29 pm

[Nick McMahon] "3. I'm about to add in some 1080 footage at end of project... should I downscale to 720 when I convert to avi cineform codec in GoPro studio..?"

Using CineForm is a great idea. If GoPro Studio does a better job of resizing then I would use that. This will also make your render go faster because Vegas Pro won't have to resize.

Ah... so I think I've just now realised then that by setting the project properties means that any footage you bring in that doesn't match will be resized by vegas when rendering to match..?

So what happens when I bring in an SD clip which is 3 seconds worth of this...? (Project properties are set to 720@ 30p)



Is there any way to make this lower res footage look any better..?

Thankfully it's not on the screen long enough for people to register it's quality difference but of course I KNOW it's there... and it bugs me somewhat

cheers

Nick... BASE1268

3...2...1...C ya


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John Rofrano
Re: 5GB for 20min 1080p video?
on Jan 29, 2015 at 1:22:59 pm

[Nick McMahon] "Ah... so I think I've just now realised then that by setting the project properties means that any footage you bring in that doesn't match will be resized by vegas when rendering to match..?"
Not Render. Let me restate that correctly.
Any footage you bring in that doesn't match the project will be resized on-the-fly by vegas when playing back the timeline.
This has nothing to do with rendering. Now... if you have a 720 project and you drop 1080 footage into it, and you render to 720, Vegas will, of course, have to resize the 1080 footage for rendering. If, however, you rendered that same project to 1080, Vegas will upscale the 720 footage to 1080 and leave the 1080 footage alone. In other words, it will not scale the 1080 down to 720 and then back up to 1080. That's the difference.
[Nick McMahon] "So what happens when I bring in an SD clip which is 3 seconds worth of this...? (Project properties are set to 720@ 30p) Is there any way to make this lower res footage look any better..?"
You can use a plus-in like Boris Continuum Complete UpRez to upscale the footage and sharpen it.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Nick McMahon
Re: 5GB for 20min 1080p video?
on Jan 29, 2015 at 6:15:20 pm

Brilliant... I'll get the BCC UpRez plug-in out of the box and have a play... how did I not clock that when I went thru the CC package... DOH !!

So... my project has begun with a whole load of 720 footage but will end with a montage of footage shot in Dubai at the competition where it's required to submit 1080 for judges to view.

So I've clocked from your explanation how Vegas resizes on-the-fly in the timeline and not left until the render process... makes sense now... thanks

Would I in fact be better off changing my project properties to 1080 and have the 720 resized...? will the end result be better if it's viewed on a 1080 capable monitor?

In other words should you always set the properties to that of the highest res footage you are using when there are varying sizes of clips being used in a project..?

And perhaps utilize the 'UpRez' plug-in on the 720 footage also...?

One more question: This 720 x 576 footage is shot at 25fps... so would it be better to change the project to 24p as surely leaving it at 30p will mean 5 frames have to be manufactured every second of this footage...?

Nick... BASE1268

3...2...1...C ya


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John Rofrano
Re: 5GB for 20min 1080p video?
on Jan 30, 2015 at 5:05:43 am

[Nick McMahon] "Would I in fact be better off changing my project properties to 1080 and have the 720 resized...? will the end result be better if it's viewed on a 1080 capable monitor?"
No. If the majority of your footage is 720 you will get better playback speed while editing if the project matches your footage. This will not affect rendering at all. As I stated, if you have 1080 footage in a 720 project and you render to 1080, the quality will be the same as if you had a 1080 project and rendered to 1080. The project settings do not affect the render quality. They are two separate things.
[Nick McMahon] "In other words should you always set the properties to that of the highest res footage you are using when there are varying sizes of clips being used in a project..?"
There are always trade-offs. If I'm are working with footage of multiple resolutions I like to either set my project to the resolution of the footage that I have the most of so that I get the best playback speed, or set my project to resolution that I will deliver in to be sure that what I see while editing will be what I see when I deliver. If you are dealing with footage that has the same aspect ratio (e.g., all 16:9) it really doesn't matter but if you are dealing with footage of different aspect ratios I would definitely set my project to the resolution and aspect ratio that I plan to deliver in so that there are no surprises when I render.

There is no optimal answer. The fact that you have footage of different resolutions is sub-optimal all by itself.
[Nick McMahon] "And perhaps utilize the 'UpRez' plug-in on the 720 footage also...?"
You could certainly do that but Vegas does a pretty good job of resizing from 720 to 1080 so you might not need it. It's when you go from SD to HD that you really need it.
[Nick McMahon] "One more question: This 720 x 576 footage is shot at 25fps... so would it be better to change the project to 24p as surely leaving it at 30p will mean 5 frames have to be manufactured every second of this footage...?"
24p has it's own set of issues. Did you shoot for 24p? Because if you didn't, your 60i/30fps footage might look very stuttery when you pan because you weren't panning with 24p in mind. You have to think about, do you want to compromise the 60i/30fps footage because of the 50i/25fps footage or do you want to compromise the 25fps footage for the 30fps footage. Once again, there is no optimal solution. Something will get compromised.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Nick McMahon
Re: 5GB for 20min 1080p video?
on Jan 30, 2015 at 12:51:38 pm

Thanks very much as always for the explanation... now I properly understand that project properties are primarily intended for how the timeline preview is displayed so we can see what the delivery will look like.

here's where my misunderstanding came from.... because when you try to customise a render template there are several tabs at the bottom one of which is marked 'project'



Stupidly I didn't clock the 'Rendering Quality' refers to only that specific choice which can be set in the PP's and of course you can drop the menu down in the template which then gives you the same choices for rendering quality as in the PP's

I thought it was using ALL the PP settings.... DOH !! That'll teach me for fishing around and looking at stuff without properly understanding it. Comes back to the point that Sony doesn't offer a tutorial explanation on the customisation of templates and what effect each setting will have... at least I haven't found one yet.

So that now makes sense about the use of the UpRez plug-in too tho I need to read up on how to use the settings to get the best overall quality increase in a clip... it really only has any noticeable effect on SD to HD because as you say Vegas does a good job of resizing 720 to 1080.

On a completely different note while I think of it... the 3.06GHz 12 core Mac Pro I sent you the link to went for US$1995... bargain if they go for 3000+ in the states... hopefully I can get one for a similar price when I've saved enough

cheers

Nick... BASE1268

3...2...1...C ya


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John Rofrano
Re: 5GB for 20min 1080p video?
on Jan 30, 2015 at 6:16:12 pm

[Nick McMahon] "On a completely different note while I think of it... the 3.06GHz 12 core Mac Pro I sent you the link to went for US$1995... bargain if they go for 3000+ in the states... hopefully I can get one for a similar price when I've saved enough"
Wow! That was a good deal. I'm really liking my 12-Core Mac Pro. No regrets at all. It took me about 6 month to get it for the price I wanted on eBay so you really have to be patient but the deals are out there to be had. Good luck!

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Kirk Wood
Re: 5GB for 20min 1080p video?
on Jan 31, 2015 at 12:52:17 am

Me again. Glad someone else has been able to receive help from this thread. :)

I rendered a video today. Best quality, 50 bit rate and 720p (as per the original footage). The render's file size is 12.8GB, and it is 39 minutes long. I'm okay uploading larger sizes due to recent upload speed upgrade. The render itself when played in VLC looks *perfect*.

However, I have uploaded said render to Youtube and despite being the only video with a 50 bit rate, the quality of the image seems quite different to the 720p videos I've uploaded before. It's not too far off, but I've noticed the video blurs far more often during movement and intermittently than the others.

The *only* setting I changed this time around was the bit rate and disabled two-pass, as per suggestion regarding high frame rates. I should also note that I set both the maximum and average bit rate as 50; not sure if that's an issue, but like I said the finished render is absolutely fine.

The *only* difference in my upload was that I uploaded a higher quality render.

Presumably this is a problem with Youtube's encoding since the quality degrade is only noticed there, however I am wondering if the lack of two-pass, max/average rate or using such a high rate has influenced the poor quality in some form?


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John Rofrano
Re: 5GB for 20min 1080p video?
on Jan 31, 2015 at 3:05:21 pm

[Kirk Wood] "The *only* setting I changed this time around was the bit rate and disabled two-pass, as per suggestion regarding high frame rates."
That's interesting because that is something that two-pass could possibly fix but it doesn't make sense because the bit rate is so high. Try turning two-pas back on and see if it makes a difference. If it does, then I retract my statement that it's not need with high bit rates because it is obviously making a difference in this case.
[Kirk Wood] "I should also note that I set both the maximum and average bit rate as 50; not sure if that's an issue, but like I said the finished render is absolutely fine."
That's not what you should be doing. If you want to use a constant bit rate then you should use the CBR switch. Try that instead.
[Kirk Wood] "Presumably this is a problem with Youtube's encoding since the quality degrade is only noticed there, however I am wondering if the lack of two-pass, max/average rate or using such a high rate has influenced the poor quality in some form?"
It is possible that this is purely a YouTube problem but it's worth uploading a small CBR file and two-pass file just to see if they make any difference.

~jr

http://www.johnrofrano.com
http://www.vasst.com



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Kirk Wood
Re: 5GB for 20min 1080p video?
on Jan 31, 2015 at 4:18:55 pm

I'll retry two-pass. Shame it would take four or five hours though, but I suppose sacrifices must be made for quality eh.

See, I thought that, but I was confused as to what setting to do. Average 50, maximum slightly over? Maximum 50, average slightly under? Also, from my understanding you should use VBR for Youtube?

I might try something like 35 bit rate with two-pass, that way I lower render time and the quality doesn't take a significant hit.


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Jane Kong
Re: 5GB for 20min 1080p video?
on Mar 6, 2015 at 7:16:04 am

hope you don't mind I post here, but really this post helps me a lot and saves me a lots of time about the same problems. I know the longer conversion related to the Bit rate, if you want to downscle the bitrate ,the quality may be influenced. Still too large files are a big problem.


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