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Flexible frame rate for both ntsc and pal

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Manuel Terra
Flexible frame rate for both ntsc and pal
on Mar 15, 2010 at 2:29:20 pm

Hi,
This is my first post here.I am a professional photographer but new to video.
I am quite confused with all the info available and have been looking for the best solution for a video project of mine.So I would greatelly apreciate any light upon my doubts.
My project is an adventure docu in Iceland.
My camera records in ntsc full HD avchd in 24p native/30p wraped (recorded in 60i) and 60i.
Target:eventual broadcast in ntsc (primary) and pal.Best possible quality.
My question : which should be the most flexible frame rate?
Here are some of my conclusions, please correct me.

1)24p native is good for pal but bradcast is in 30p and there might be loss oq qaulity.
2)30p in 60i wraper requires pulldown and may loss.
3)60i seems to be best for ntsc and conversion to pal(50i) seems easy.

Obs:In Brazil productions are done in 30p or 60i ntsc, then converted to pal-m which is similar to ntsc.

Which frame rate would you use,considering less conversions,puldowns deinterlacing possible?
thank you very much.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Flexible frame rate for both ntsc and pal
on Mar 15, 2010 at 3:41:05 pm

[Manuel Terra] "which should be the most flexible frame rate?"

24p. You will need to remove the 3:2 pulldown before you begin editing. There are a few ways to do this; some editing applications can do this when capturing.

For NTSC work, you can simply add the 3:2 pulldown, creating a 29.97 file. Some capture cards automatically add the pulldown using hardware when recording to tape for distribution.

For PAL work, you can conform the frame rate to 25fps; the program length will be a little shorter. If you absolutely must have a program of matching lengths in both NTSC and PAL, you should take it to a post houe for hardware conversion to 25fps.

A note on frame rates: the NTSC film frame rate is 23.976 frames/sec. People incorrectly call it 23.98. People also call it 24p. It's 23.976.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Manuel Terra
Re: Flexible frame rate for both ntsc and pal
on Mar 16, 2010 at 10:30:51 am

Dave,
Thanks for helping me in the shooting decision, 24p it will be.
I yet dont understand one thing (to say the least):
If canon states it records in 24p native, but its a ntsc camera that implies that the pull down is added by the camera to achive ntsc frame rate, right? So if I capture in prores 422 24p FCP is removing that pulldown to edit in a 24p timeline? and from there,once the project is edited, export to either pal or ntsc adding the needed pulldown? Or should I capture in 30p (I figure thats the original with no puldown removal) and work in a 30p timeline, will that be allready a ntsc timeline with no need for aditional pulldown?Then only the pal version would need pulldown, saveing pulldown process in the ntsc version.Let me know what you think.
Thanks again.
Manuel


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Flexible frame rate for both ntsc and pal
on Mar 16, 2010 at 4:32:13 pm

You absolutely MUST remove the 3:2 pulldown. You can NOT work at 29.97. Get used to that fact.

If you decide to ignore this advice, you will have many, many time-consuming and money-wasting problems later in the project.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Manuel Terra
Re: Flexible frame rate for both ntsc and pal
on Mar 16, 2010 at 4:47:50 pm

thanks again.I will follow your advice.


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David Foster
Re: Flexible frame rate for both ntsc and pal
on Mar 17, 2010 at 6:13:20 pm

Which Canon do you use? I know the XHA-1 will natively record 23.976. Use firewire for importing your clips, and they'll be ready to go at 23.976.

Dave Foster


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Manuel Terra
Re: Flexible frame rate for both ntsc and pal
on Mar 18, 2010 at 6:52:52 pm

I ordered 2 canon hf s21 from Japan where its allready available.
this camera records in 24p native progressive in full hd with a bunch of manual settings and its small and light.

I wrote to canon and I got this answer:

"There should not be any need to remove pull down prior to editing the
software. However this will Ultimately be determined by the software
that you would be using to edit the video footage. The best advice I
would have is to try it in your software to determine if this is needed."

well, anyway im getting my cameras next week and ill do some testing.Ill also go to FCP school...

thank you.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Flexible frame rate for both ntsc and pal
on Mar 18, 2010 at 7:37:26 pm

[Manuel Terra] "The best advice I would have is to try it in your software to determine if this is needed."

If Canon uses that kind of Marketing Weasel Language in conjunction with a camera in that price range, you can count on everything being recorded at 29.97 interlaced... or 60i, if you prefer to call it that.

Happy testing.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Manuel Terra
Re: Flexible frame rate for both ntsc and pal
on Mar 19, 2010 at 9:44:41 am

I belive it records at 29.97 so pull down is needed.Dont think its interlaced because canon says it does not use the 60i wrap.Though in the camera specs canon states it records in 24p...
Any way I think that the marketing language is deceiving 24p advanced, 24p progressive, 24p native progressive, 24p in a 60i wrap, 24f... It,s all an induced illusion for selling.
I will use 24p native progressive, whatever that is because it seems better than 60i as far as flexibility goes.
I answered the guy in Canon making a yes or no question, nothing clear as that...


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Flexible frame rate for both ntsc and pal
on Mar 19, 2010 at 5:53:17 pm

[Manuel Terra] "Dont think its interlaced..."

I know of a few cameras that shoot true 1080p, with absolutely no interlacing. They're professional cameras with price tags starting at about seventy thousand dollars American. It is a VERY DIFFICULT AND EXPENSIVE THING to record true 1080p.

This is why I can say with confidence that your camera shoots 1080i.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV (ABC) Cedar Rapids, IA


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Manuel Terra
Re: Flexible frame rate for both ntsc and pal
on Mar 19, 2010 at 7:03:49 pm

So here s the answer from Canon:

"All of the current consumer high definition models use a true
progressive CMOS sensor. The 24p will shoot at 23.97 fps. Progressive
video that is recorded with the consumer high definition camcorders is
still recorded into an interlaced "wrapper" so that the video is fully
compatible with normal consumer AVCHD editing solutions. You will still
need to de interlace this video to utilize the true progressive footage.

Image "tearing" may still happen during fast motion or panning due to
the heavy compression that is used with all consumer high definition
video formats. The best way to reduce image tearing is to slow down when
you are panning."

Thanks again for the help provided in this forum. Its a grat source of information,keep the good work.Regards.Manuel


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