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Chad Green
Live internet show
on Jun 28, 2009 at 4:37:09 pm

Hi,

I was approached to start a live weekly half hour internet show, it is a QVC style shopping show with 2 host selling about 6 items per show.

I need a detailed equipment list to make this show a possibility.

The show will feature:
- onscreen graphics and info about each product.
- live feedback to hosts ears as to what is selling well etc.
- cut to pre-excising product shots.
- live questions over the phone.
- fielding live email or twitter questions.

Equipment I have:
- 2 HD cameras
- 2 lavalier mics
- 2 MacPros
- Full lighting kit

Things I know I need:
- ability to tap hosts into phone line
- ability for director to talk to host and camera ops seperately
- mixer for 2 cams, audio and 2 pre-recorded feeds (possibly graphics on mixer lever)
- a great option on computer side is BoinxTV which I will do some testing on
- output feed from computer to encoding box???
- encoder to streaming server

If there is anything I am missing please fill me in as well as giving me ideas on specific equipment models that you have success with.

Your help will be much appreciated,

Chad
greenchad4@gmail.com


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Bob Zelin
Re: Live internet show
on Jun 30, 2009 at 9:35:52 pm

Hi -
this is what you need.

1) money to build this studio
2) an engineer to put this together for you.

This is not a "throw a firewire cable into my MAC, and make a live TV show.

Lets just take one of your issues - communications between your director, the cameramen, your talent, and the phone lines -

you need a professional communications system - like an RTS or Clear Com system. The minimum configuration is going to be a 2 channel system. 2 channels for the base station, one channel for the com boxes that go to the cameramen and director. The second channel will be used for IFB (interrupted foldback). You take your telephone interface box (from JK Audio - gee which one ?) - and you send the phone signal into the PROGRAM AUDIO INPUT of your Clear Com or RTS base station. This gets assigned to channel 2, which feed IFB beltpacks, which go to the ears of the talent. This way, the director can use the base station to talk to the talent, or switch the phone feed to the talent, so they can answer questions from the callers. All of this will cost more than your MAC, drives and a capture card.

But wait - there's more - if you want to feed the audio from the talent back to the phone lines, so the callers can hear the answer to the questions, in addition to their internet audio, you need a full duplex hybrid from JK Audio (or others) so you can take an aux send from your mixer, and feed it back into the JK Audio phone interface, so the callers can hear what the talent has to say on their telephone ?

Confused ? Surprised it's this complicated?
You are not getting answers to how to build a complete television facility on a simple thread on an internet forum. You need a contractor. And you need money to build this.

An HD switcher that can handle multiple cameras, tape roll ins, key graphics, and have a live graphics generator (only 20 items left - order now before they are gone !) - will cost you A LOT OF MONEY.
And take a lot of configuration and wiring.

Everyone gets so spoiled from how cheap it is to build an editing system, or graphics system today. But building a live production facility that is FULLY FUNCTIONAL is a lot more involved than someone saying "hey, get a tricaster - that's all you need to have a fully functional TV studio". This is just bulls#$%.

bob Zelin




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Mark Suszko
Re: Live internet show
on Jun 30, 2009 at 10:14:06 pm

What Bob said. Also, the Boinx product, while nice, is not in the right league for the level of project you are proposing.

You can go back and start over with a clean sheet of paper and start researching all the little bits and pieces yourself, but I would suggest your time and money is better spent getting a couple hours paid consultation from a pro engineer, if this is really a serious project. We can chip in ideas for you here and there, piecemeal, but you really need a contractor to do this for you, unless you've been in the biz as long as Bob and absorbed all this arcana required to create a meaningful bid off the top of the head.

Or maybe you might need to re-evaluate what you're trying to do, why do you want or need to emulate broadcast QVC type stuff on the net. Computer auctions are a breed apart from TV ones, and to my mind, what might work better for you is to think of an auction site like ebay, but that has a live or looped playback video window on the side of the auction interface. If such a thing is even desired by people. It's a subtle difference at first, but the more you look at it, the more you realize it is looking completely thru the other end of the telescope.

Frankly, for most things, I wouldn't bother wanting the added drag and slowness of video on the page while I do my auction hunting. But that's a business/marketing question, and not a tech one.





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Bob Zelin
Re: Live internet show
on Jun 30, 2009 at 11:17:25 pm

no Mark, you and Bob are both, old stupid people. I know I can build a complete TV studio for $5000, with full HD capability, full communications, full audio, and I can get the lighting, and web streaming for this as well. All you guys want to do is make fun of people that don't know as much as you do - but we know more than you do. I know this can be done for $5000. I don't know why people say it costs a lot of money to build a complete television facility, because my friend said that I can do it with a Newtek Tricaster, and some Radio Shack intercom systems. All you people do is try to insult us, when we KNOW that it can be done for a fraction of the price you people say we need to spend.

You are all so insulting. If someone knows how to do this for a low cost (under $5000) I would appreciate your help. I don't need to be insulted by people that are not willing to help me. This is the 21st century - my friend in high school runs a TV show for his school, and we can do this, without spending a lot of money.

Damn you, Mark (and Bob).

Bob Zelin




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Mark Suszko
Re: Live internet show
on Jul 1, 2009 at 2:55:27 am

Yeah, well, there is always that danger that we're going to insult or chase off people asking for help. That's not our intention. We're not doing it to be mean. Well, OK, Bob does, but that's just his way, and behind it is genuine concern for, if not your physical well-being, at least your financial well-being:-) I don't know Bob personally, but one thing I think I know about you, sir, is that you have seen things done very wrong a lot of times, and you'd just as soon help people not repeat the same mistakes you've seen.

Chad, we could do like in the old Mickey Rooney/Judy Garland movies, find some old sheet music and costumes in the barn, etc. and everybody could chime in and recommend you one or two pieces until you had this big Mulligan Stew of a shopping list. And it *might* all fit together and work together. Maybe. But that approach is probably going to hurt you more than help you, because no two people are going to see your project and its needs the same way. Heck, I still don't know exactly what Chad's going for with this project in the first place, from a business/marketing standpoint. I really fear that when you combine the various suggestions, opinions, and strategies, you run a high risk of an expensive mash-up that will not perform as you want and need.

I can say I have been helping a guy with big internet video dreams put together a similar 3-camera production package; Toaster, 2 locked down cams and a manned or remote PTZ cam, lights, audio, a simple 3-unit intercom system, some cheap monitors. It can be a useful exercise, running thru the B&H catalog and adding stuff up, as it gets you familiar, once again, with what things cost. I was thinking I was insane, making up my list of a Toaster and all the other things that need to go along with that, and my "quote" for his shopping list for the bare minimum system I thought could do what he wanted was around $23k. And yep, the very first thing he asked me was why the Tricaster I spec'd was much more money than the one he saw. For one thing, his pick lacked the specific connectivity we needed due to his already buying cameras without guidance and me having to design around poorly chosen but non-returnable components we were already stuck with. It gets better, but that's enough gossip. Also, I'm not charging that guy for my opinions or advice. It's more along the lines of the free advice I would give a relative who wants to edit his home movies. I'm mostly warning him off of the worst directions to go, but not pushing him towards anything much. Though I'm really deeper into it than I should be going without charging. We're still at the stage where he's forming his long-term plan and seeking out the additional financing he's now sure he needs.

I also showed him the quote for the same setup in high-def, but he was already in ventricular fibrillation from the standard-def quote. The reality check was useful though, as it brought him back to a place where I started with him, explaining how we could do smaller, modest, less ambitious baby steps and still get him towards his goal, but on a budget he could afford, and with quality that I might actually sign my name to.

This is the same kind of conversation you will have, Chad, when you hook up with a good VAR or consulting engineer. They have seen it all, they know what works and what can be bent to fit what you need and can afford. But you should not expect them to impart this hard-won wisdom for nothing at all in return. Tell them up front what your budget and resources are like, and what you're trying to achieve, and one of them may take you on at a reduced fee just for the fun of it, or to "pay it forward" for the help they themselves once got from a mentor.

You might not get the answers you want, like from Bob. But also, like Bob's answers, they will be the ones you need.




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Chad Green
Re: Live internet show
on Jul 1, 2009 at 3:20:45 pm

Thank you Bob and Mark!

Your responses are invaluable to me.

Chad


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Alan Lloyd
Re: Live internet show
on Jul 1, 2009 at 4:06:02 pm

They're giving good advice.

I've done live internet and live TV and it takes some doing. And some hardware. And some people, and lots of money to do it well.

Something to consider: TV gives you what you want, how you want it, when they want to give it to you. The internet gives you what you want, when you want it, but you may not like how.

With time, the drift will inevitably be to the internet - bandwidth will not decrease, processing will not get worse, and the range of content will not get smaller.

It's not quite there yet.

Best of luck to you, seriously. It's going to be a lot of work. And then you - or someone - will have to promote the show itself.


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Alan Smith
Re: Live internet show
on Jul 1, 2009 at 7:09:06 pm

Or... you could just get a Tricaster Pro! Plug and Play is the way to go baby!!!

Oh Yeah!

Alan

Alan Smith
Media317

Check out my blog - http://media317.com


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Richard Cardonna
Re: Live internet show
on Jul 10, 2009 at 4:03:19 pm

Check Vidblaster at vidblaster.com this could handle your image needs
as far as graphics you can use photoshop with this app. You would need an audio mixer

As far as communications check eartec head wireless phones very reliable i use them on my productions, 5 headsets about 1k

Things are chaning a lot in the broadcast field. Just like when dv started all the die hard broadcast people said that it will never work.

Welcome to the 3rd milenium

R cardonna





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Bob Zelin
Re: Live internet show
on Jul 12, 2009 at 7:22:57 pm

Richard writes -
Things are chaning a lot in the broadcast field. Just like when dv started all the die hard broadcast people said that it will never work.
Welcome to the 3rd milenium

REPLY -
from this URL at Vidblaster -
http://vidblaster.com/?page_id=10
To connect your video camera, you can use any interface you like, e.g. firewire, USB or a video capture device like a USB or PCI frame grabber. See this forum post for more details.

Richard defines the virus that exists in our industry today. Professionals strive for excellence, and people like Richard continue to push that USB and Firewire cameras are broadcast quality. THEY ARE NOT. They are toys - pieces of S#$% that are used by students. This is not a professional product that will handle SD-SDI and HD-SDI (or even composite or component SD) video signals.

As we continue to strive for excellence, and outdate analog video, and go to SD-SDI and HD-SDI, even these formats are not acceptable, and we continue to strive for 2K and 4K. If we do work in standard HD, we work to use professional excellent quality HD compression codecs like DVCProHD, ProRes422HQ, and AVID DNxHD 220 - NOT DV25 !

If you want to produce S#$%, then use product like VidBlaster. Even products like the Newtek Tricaster are professional products, and not a joke toy like Vidblaster. Be a professional - use professional equipment, with PROFESSIONAL QUALITY IMAGES. The iPhone is not a substitute for a RED camera.

bob Zelin




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MikeVersteeg
Re: Live internet show
on Jul 13, 2009 at 8:32:56 am

Hey guys,

I am not going to join this discussion, if anyone has questions regarding VidBlaster then there's a forum at the VidBlaster site just for that. But Bob, if you want to burn down my software at least make sure you get your facts right? VidBlaster does composite, component, HDMI and yes, SDI. In fact it supports any signal as long as an interface card for PCs exists for it. Maybe you should actually try it before posting your comments? While at it, do some research into the construction of a tricaster. It might surprise you :)

Cheers,

Mike



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Richard Cardonna
Re: Live internet show
on Jul 14, 2009 at 2:10:39 am

Bob,

The fellow wants to transmit via internet, do you want to design and sell him hardware that will cost him a bundle and fatten you bank account? Equipment that will be obsolete in a few year and that is overkill for his needs? May you would.

I don't think you know what you are talking about. With a software like vidblaster he can make the show work and excell and its not a toy. I don't use vidblaster because it does not work for my kind of work but i have tried it. The hardware he can get elswhere, I am sure, better suited for his needs and realty than anything you can offer.

I might be a virus to you but you are a dinosaur, remember virus evolve and dinos become bones in museums.

I Guess you would have thrived in the 19th century.


Richard Cardonna



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Marcus Carey
Re: Live internet show
on Sep 11, 2009 at 2:15:01 pm

Look, I read the posts on here and can tell you that the guerrilla way is really popular these days. I would recommend a high end prosumer camera from BHphotovideo.com, a firewire driven laptop, some flourescent soft boxes, a high quality microphone and mixer, a fast laptop, wired connection to the Internet (not wifi) some time to practice and Vidblaster as your broadcast console which you or an assistant can manage very easily.

For the sake of full disclosure I will tell you that I am a re-seller of Vidblaster and would be happy to help you. Just let me know. And I have searched the world for equipment and can direct you I think to the most effective and reasonably priced.


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Allen Wilbanks
Re: Live internet show
on Dec 15, 2009 at 1:24:41 am

Hi Marcus -

I've produced thousands of three camera Internet only interviews and have been doing them with an old fashion switcher (Videonics) and would like to pick your brain about VidBlaster and a laptop that would work well with this set up.

I'm always on the road when I produce these so anything that will lighten my load (in light of the recent airline baggage policies) would be greatly appreciated.

I'm a new member so hopefully you'll get this soon.

Cheers,
Allen Wilbanks


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Richard Cardonna
Re: Live internet show
on Jul 15, 2009 at 12:05:47 am

If you got a ton of cash and want to make Bob happy and richer buy from him and let him design your setup. I am sure you will get great equipmentand and a topsetup.

However you can do the same an even better with much less. Remember some people makes a living selling expensive gear and feel threatend by the shape of thing to come.


Based on your post you almost have all you need and the rest can be had for much less than what you think.

Only drawback is no cheap animated graphics generator that I know of.

You would need either a well powered pc of g5 running windows because the app only runs on win xp, however it outputs mov files which you can edit in FC.

No need for encoder box unless you are doing standard def or higher

With this app you do not need tape decks, all your video and image files can be on hd drives Separte from sys hd

You should use an audio console and any deck for music or othe sound.

Vidblaster workflow for your project

1-Record all product shots previously and store to folder in separtes hd.

2-Have someone make the graphics in photoshop with alfa channel and store in folder on hd.

start show with live talent when product come up simply playback from hd to a vidblaster window and overlay corresponding graphic for product or talent. You will not have animted graphic for now but its coming-and switch between sources as you like.

Vidblaster studio works just like a video switcher but has more capabilities

Vidblaster will encode for you (thats why you need a high end pc or g5

Live talent audio and any other audio source should be go from mic and/or deck into audio conole then through one of the cameras audio inputs (for better sync).

Phone equipment for talent can be purchased at B&H or electronics store.

I would not have the director talk to the talent this should be done by the producer.

also get some lights florecent if you can.

any questions just ask

Probobly your higher expense will be a good set so if you have money invest in this.

Richard Cardonna


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Phillip Platz
Re: Live internet show
on Nov 17, 2009 at 6:33:25 am

Spelling errors aside, Richard here clearly has no idea what he's talking about.

Yes, in the real broadcasting world, the director may have a need to communicate with the talent.

Yes, that requires SOME sort of IFB system. Not just walkie talkies.

Bob is being real. Not trying to screw anybody over.

Is it possible to jerry-rig something together for cheap? I suppose. Will you all be willing to coach over the internet (written word, folks, and free?) Chad on how to jerry-rig the setup he wants? And then to operate it?


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Mark Suszko
Re: Live internet show
on Nov 17, 2009 at 6:44:00 pm

A little late in the game to have an opinion now though. Its been 5 months.


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Phillip Platz
Re: Live internet show
on Nov 18, 2009 at 5:44:05 am

Wow, true that.

Can I just declare newbie status on this and not look as stupid? Was having a fun late night stroll through here last night, and I couldn't believe what I was reading...

Respectfully,

Phillip Platz


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Richard Cardonna
Re: Live internet show
on Nov 22, 2009 at 3:30:37 am

Neither you nor Bob have any Idea what you are talking about. You guys are thinking in broadcast home shopping center and while the man is thinking of something similar the realities of live web production not only presents opportunities but also many challenges.

The fellow wants an internet show which imop does not necessarily have to be live and certainly has no need for high end hardware or the old broadcast workflow. I was presenting a workflow that could make his life easier and present high end look without the invoice for high end equipment, or overstaffing by making most of the content prerecorded

Live communication with the host is no brainer if he wants it but is not key in this type of production most of the interaction is done with call reps not the host. I can understand a news announcer needing instant contact with the producer or director but someone selling rings or cloths, I don't know but I think not. At least not much

I don’t know what he plans to sell but whatever needs to look good at the bandwidth he is planning to use but certainly it should be availble in various sizes.

Can you imagine seeing all that content in a mini screen? not to mention the resolution?


Of course if he uses nitwits for talent he is going to need more than real-time communications.

Its different medium with different realities just like film and tv has its ascetics so does the internet and this affects the way its produced. Remember form follow function.

So try thinking out of the box, new times and new ways are here.


Richard


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