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16:9 Studio Monitor Options?

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Matthew Abourezk
16:9 Studio Monitor Options?
on Aug 12, 2008 at 12:44:52 pm

Hi all,

Using FCP and transitioning into HD video. I just edited my first HD job using my older Sony Pro Trinitron. The Sony does have a 16:9 switch, but the image quality degrades (Not HD) and the image size is small.

So I am on the hunt for a good HD monitor for my edit suite. After I picked myself up from the floor (having seen the prices for a reasonable HD monitor), I wondered if a computer monitor could be used as reasonable HD monitor.

I am not up on the math required to know what monitor resolution I need to fit an HD signal, so any help there would be appreciated.

I also know that a computer monitor's colors are flat and undersaturated compared to NTSC, so I wonder if you have any input if color calibration of a computer monitor can get me a reasonable facsimile of an NTSC color spectrum.

It sure would be nice to spend $800 for an Apple cinema display, instead of $3,300 for the low end Sony flat panel.

Obviously, there would be trade-offs in the savings, any thoughts are greatly appreciated.

Matt



Talkingbox Digital Media Group, Inc.
http://www.talkingboxdmg.com
(203) 327-6617


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Bob Zelin
Re: 16:9 Studio Monitor Options?
on Aug 12, 2008 at 8:43:20 pm

The Sony LMD-2030 is about $1100 at B+H Photo.

The Panasonic TH42PH10UKA is about $900 at B+H Photo.

If you want to use an Apple 23" Cinema, you can absolutely use these with either the Blackmagic HDLink or the AJA HDP, which will convert
HD-SDI to DVI.

If you don't want to buy the converters, then get a Dell 2408WFP for about $600, and this has analog Y Pb Pr HD inputs that you can feed from an AVID, Blackmagic, AJA, MOTU or Matrox capture product. (yes, in HD).

I have given you solutions of professional products in your price range.

Anything else ?

Bob Zelin





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Matthew Abourezk
Re: 16:9 Studio Monitor Options?
on Aug 12, 2008 at 10:49:45 pm

Thanks Bob,
I appreciate your input. As I mentioned, the world of HD is new to me and I am having to ramp up quickly. Quite an alphabet soup.

I started looking up the equipment you told me about, and I think I fell asleep with my eyes open. Not out of boredom, but out of confusion.

If it isn't too much trouble, could you give me a sentence about why these pieces of hardware exist and what benefits (besides just converting my Apple cinema display) these would give me? On the surface, it seems like I shouldn't bother paying out $2,000 to convert the signal to a $1,000 computer monitor... maybe I should just pony up the $2,700 for a regular HD monitor???

I know I am missing something here... but I don't know what I don't know. (Like maybe I don't know that there is no way to output an HD signal from my computer to an HD monitor without installing one of the cards you mentioned?)

Thanks Bob.
Matt



Talkingbox Digital Media Group, Inc.
http://www.talkingboxdmg.com
(203) 327-6617


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cowcowcowcowcow
Bob Zelin
Re: 16:9 Studio Monitor Options?
on Aug 12, 2008 at 11:05:23 pm

Matt -
I gave you answers and prices, and you STILL want to spend $2700. What is wrong with you ?

Falling asleep with all this info - get out of the business. It's getting MORE confusing. More choices, more formats, more file conversion types, more HD compression ratios. If you are to be in this business (unless you are the script writer, director, actor, or makeup person), YOU HAVE TO KNOW ALL THIS STUFF. This is a career, not a hobby.

Answers below -


Bob,

I started looking up the equipment you told me about, and I think I fell asleep with my eyes open.

If it isn't too much trouble, could you give me a sentence about why these pieces of hardware exist and what benefits (besides just converting my Apple cinema display) these would give me?

REPLY - it is your job to take these model #'s and go to a site like
http://www.bhphotovideo.com, and see what these items are. It is your job to become familiar with these products.
The LDM-2030 is an inexpensive 16:9 LCD HD monitor.
The Panasonic TH42PH10UKA is a 42" HD Plasma display.
The Dell 2408WFP is a 24" LCD monitor that can be used for video.
The AJA HDP and Blackmagic HD Link are around $500 and will allow your Cinema display to display video.


On the surface, it seems like I shouldn't bother paying out $2,000 to convert the signal to a $1,000 computer monitor... maybe I should just pony up the $2,700 for a regular HD monitor???

REPLY - IF YOU WOULD LOOK UP THESE MODEL #'s on the internet, you will see that you are NOT spending $2000 for a converter. You have to do SOME WORK - what the hell else are you doing this evening, watching a sitcom on TV ?


I know I am missing something here... but I don't know what I don't know. (Like maybe I don't know that there is no way to output an HD signal from my computer to an HD monitor without installing one of the cards you mentioned?)

REPLY -
again, I am confused by your question. If you are EDITING IN HD, this means that you own a HD Capture card. If you have a MAC based FCP edit system, and have no capture card, becuase you import your footage, and just want to output the HD image, with minimal aggrivation, the Matrox MXO (look it up on Google) will let you take your DVI port on your MAC and convert it to a Y Pb Pr signal, that you can send into an inexpensive Plasma display to watch HD.

THIS STUFF AINT EASY. Neither is the use of FCP, Premier, AVID, and everything else that we do for a living. ITS WORK, and it requires studying and knowlege to survive. And the competition is fierce. Everyone on these forums works their asses off to learn all this stuff, so they can stay in this business. You have to do the same.

Bob Zelin





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Joey Burnham
Re: 16:9 Studio Monitor Options?
on Aug 13, 2008 at 12:14:56 am

Don't let Bob scare you, but he's right.

I swear by my Panasonic BT-LH1700W.

http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ModelDetail?storeId...

Really, really great for the price. Yes, they're upwards of 3k, but welcome to the world of HD. Now if you're talking about HDV, don't bother. HDV is really just anamorphic SD in my book.

Joey





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Matthew Abourezk
Re: 16:9 Studio Monitor Options?
on Aug 13, 2008 at 12:47:06 am

Joey,

Thanks for the info. Much appreciated.

Talkingbox Digital Media Group, Inc.
http://www.talkingboxdmg.com
(203) 327-6617


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Ronnie James
Re: 16:9 Studio Monitor Options?
on Oct 27, 2008 at 9:20:22 pm

I swear by my Panasonic BT-LH1700W.

http://catalog2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ModelDetail?storeId...


Joey, I just came across this post trying to research a bit more info on these Panny monitors. Do you know if they're capable of displaying interlacing? My concern, specifically, is the monitors ability to display interlacing problems, such as reversed fields in graphics, etc.

Thanks for any info!



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Joey Burnham
Re: 16:9 Studio Monitor Options?
on Oct 27, 2008 at 9:25:54 pm

Yes they do display fields. I have a Kona 3 here and there is an option to either display pause on the Full Frame or Single Field. Leaving it in Full Frame is what I do mainly so that when I'm editing I can tell if I've got a field from another scene in with the footage I want.



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Matthew Abourezk
Re: 16:9 Studio Monitor Options?
on Aug 13, 2008 at 12:44:05 am

Yo, Bob,

It is good that you are working your ass off. I am doing the same. 18 hour days are getting the best of me, and I just tried to take a shortcut and ask for what was essentially a review by you as to why you suggested the equipment that you mentioned. Do you read reviews about equipment? If so, does that mean you should get out of the business because you are lazy? Not at all. It means you are smart to get the input of others who have used the equipment. My guess is that you do not just buy a piece of equipment after having read the manufacturers specs, that would be dumb. And although you need to learn a lot about being polite, you don't seem dumb.

All I was asking for was your input about what the benefits were of the equipment you mentioned.

I was making a joke about falling asleep with my eyes open.... relax buddy, we are all in the same boat. Maybe time for you to take a vacation eh?

Regarding me getting out of the business.... uhhh... I'll bet you a thousand dollars that I made more money from HD this year than you did, even though I am still learning about the hardware to drive it all. I am an expert FCP editor, I was an engineer for Apple's Mac OS Engineering team for four years, and have been shooting professional video for 18 years.

One thing I have learned in all of those years is that a little bit of knowledge goes a looooong ways, but being a jerk to those around you will cut your career short.

Puh.. puhh puhhhlease don't bother responding to this thread anymore, your input is not appreciated, or respected.



Talkingbox Digital Media Group, Inc.
http://www.talkingboxdmg.com
(203) 327-6617


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Del Holford
Re: 16:9 Studio Monitor Options?
on Aug 13, 2008 at 7:22:35 pm

Boys Boys
Matthew has the creds and so does Bob. Nice website Matthew. You'll rarely go wrong with one of Bob's answers but you may have to put up with some muriatic sarcasm in his striving for excellence.

One new monitor on the market is HP/Dreamworks 2480xz color critical monitor. Priced around $3500 it offers 30 bit color (10 bit x RGB) and 1920x1200 with a 4 port USB hub. It will probably occupy 5 new FCP suites we will be installing this fall. Best to both of you.




Del
fire*, smoke*, photoshopCS3
Charlotte Public Television
del underscore edits at wtvi dot org


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Chris Brown
Re: 16:9 Studio Monitor Options?
on Aug 13, 2008 at 6:12:26 pm

Some great options out there:

- I prefer the Sony LMD-2050W, not the 2030. Definitely better than the 2030.
- The Panasonic panel mentioned above is great...in HD mode. The software in this panel does a horrid job with standard definition. I own the Sony panel above and standard def looks outstanding.
- There are still some JVC 17inch HD CRT's out there. Get the analog HD input card - handles every SD and HD resolution and framerate. I own one of those too, and we put it in our color correction/main edit suite.

If you can get an HD CRT, get that - it will still blow away current LCD's for color critical work. The current Sony LMD LCD series is great...but our JVC CRT still beats it. We use a discontinued Sony 36 inch consumer HD CRT (16:9) as our client monitor. Some of the broadcast engineers around here love it - you can calibrate it to bars and have no problem - plus it's a 1080i tube with analog and HDMI HD in.

The JVC model we have is the DT-V1710CGU. We bought direct from JVC when they sold their NAB show stock 2 years ago and saved almost 50% on the thing.

Videographer/Editor
Creative Director
Union Digital, Inc.
http://www.uniondigitalmedia.com


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cowcowcowcowcow
Bob Zelin
Re: 16:9 Studio Monitor Options?
on Aug 14, 2008 at 3:09:39 am

Isn't this what Matt wrote in his orignal post -

It sure would be nice to spend $800 for an Apple cinema display, instead of $3,300 for the low end Sony flat panel.


SO, he wants an $800 hi end solution. Your replies of Panasonic BH-LH series, JVC DT-24 series, ecinema, CineTal, OmniTek, TV Logic, Sony LMD2450, etc. are NOT WHAT HE WANTS. He wants an $800 answer.
So I gave him what he wanted - CHEAP CRAP for $800 bucks. The "low end" Sony flat panel is the LMD-2030, which is $1100 at B+H. Is it a piece of crap - YOU BET IT IS. But this is STILL too much money, because he wants to spend $800, and things that an AJA HDP costs $2000 (it's $679) or thinks that a Blackmagic HDLink costs $2000 (it's $409). But he CANT BE BOTHERED looking this up on google, and then wants to WHINE like a baby because I am answering his question with detailed model #'s and prices, AND meeting his price point, but he doesn't like my "tone of voice". Well, I answered his question long ago - if he wants to see HD, and spend LESS than $800, he can get the Dell 2408WFP (now on sale at Dell for about $600) and will get an ok picture for UNDER $800. The wonderful monitors that everyone else has listed cost A LOT OF MONEY, and dear Matt has specifically stated that he almost fell on the floor when he saw that a Sony flat panel was $3300. SO, he DOES NOT want to spend $3300 (or above), so all answers and suggestions for great monitors above $3300 are not what the customer wants.

So Matt - EAT ME !

Bob Zelin





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michael milo
Re: 16:9 Studio Monitor Options?
on Sep 17, 2008 at 5:12:34 pm

I have been searching for some info on the lmd 2030w and came across this forum. I am testing the lmd 2030w monitor with a fcp system outputting sd via component declink card. (most of my work is done in this way and this system will likely not transition to HD.

There is terrible color bleeding around the edges of images as well as a terrible interlacing problem. I have tried many things to the fcp sequence - field order and de-interlacing but it does not correct the interlacing problem. I have also tried a CRT monitor and the interlacing problem disappears. Also I have tried the lmd 2050, the interlacing problem is still there but less noticeable. I have run the camera sony 370 dvcam into the monitor and there is no interlacing problem.

I am not certain what the source of the problem is. Is it the analogue signals inherent incompatibility with the lcd monitors and that I should find a good used crt reference monitor. Is it a problem with the declink card or some wrong settings?

You seemed to be happy with the sd quality on the lmd series monitors - what have you done?





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Chris Brown
Re: 16:9 Studio Monitor Options?
on Sep 17, 2008 at 6:46:22 pm

You will always see a little bit of the "interlacing problem" on the LMD-2050W. The 2030 is a bit more pronounced, as it's lower end on the chain. Remember these monitors are progressive, so they have to process an interlaced signal into progressive, and then in the case of standard definition, up-scale it to the panel resolution. The LMD-2050W has better software than the 2030. It's not perfect, but we've been getting good results on ours (the 2050W) which is hooked up to a Decklink card. We're not doing anything different than using their output presets. I'm sure you've done this, but output color bars and calibrate the monitor to them so that you're all setup. We haven't seen any bad color tearing. It makes me wonder if you haven't calibrated it to bars.

To me still, nothing compares to a good reference CRT. That's why we've stocked up here before they started to stop selling them. You can find great deals on eBay, and JVC still has new standard and multi-definition CRTs available.

The Sony LMD series is pretty good...I'll stop there at pretty good. The 2050W and larger models do a great job.

I'll tell you what though, I was extremely impressed with the new Master Series models that they released to replace their master CRT series. They were exact match for match against the CRTs to my eyes...I just can't affort $24,000 for the 24 inch model. Sony finally figured it out...but the price point is just nuts right now. I hope the LED technology and software from the new Master LCDs makes it's way down into the LMD series in a couple of years...Sony will corner the market for professional LCDs at that point.

Videographer/Editor
Creative Director
Union Digital, Inc.
http://www.uniondigitalmedia.com


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Del Holford
Re: 16:9 Studio Monitor Options?
on Aug 15, 2008 at 3:01:38 pm

[Matthew Abourezk] "It sure would be nice to spend $800 for an Apple cinema display, instead of $3,300 for the low end Sony flat panel.

Obviously, there would be trade-offs in the savings, any thoughts are greatly appreciated."


Yes it would but as the thread has shown, that's probably not going to happen. I've got a 23" cinema display on my FCP and when playing full screen it looks good but I really don't trust the blacks. If you are going to go HD you have to see it correctly. If you don't buy a decent monitor (and several color critical monitors have been mentioned) you will never see it correctly. Having started HD in 2001, we have a Sony BVM 20 which cost us around $35,000 and an Ikegami 14 digital HD CRT that cost nearly that. Those are in the edit suites, not the tech cores. Fortunately the $12-20K eCinema and CineTal LCDs are being superceded by the JVC and HP/Dreamworks LCDs at much better price points. In HD you can't trade-off quality or you'll be hurting yourself and your clients.

The saga continues...



Del
fire*, smoke*, photoshopCS3
Charlotte Public Television
del underscore edits at wtvi dot org


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cowcowcowcowcow
Jeff Bernstein
Re: 16:9 Studio Monitor Options?
on Aug 15, 2008 at 11:45:03 pm

Matthew,

You will need to take a step back and read Bob several posts on the Cow. If you take the time, you will realize that Bob is extremely helpful and quite knowledgeable. While Bob can be very sarcastic, many, if not most, of us on the Cow love it.

As you found out, he has a pet peeve for people who are trying to do things on the cheap for the sake of doing it on the cheap. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. FYI, I share the same pet peeve.

As such, if you made so much money, as you purport, than you should take that wad burning a hole in your wallet and spend it on a proper monitor. To that end, you will have a tough time finding one for less than $3500, in general.

Otherwise, lighten up.


Jeff Bernstein

Digital Desktop Consulting
Apple Pro Video VAR
XSAN Certified
MetaSAN Master Reseller

323-653-7611


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Matthew Abourezk
Re: 16:9 Studio Monitor Options?
on Aug 26, 2008 at 8:10:16 pm

Wow.... okay then...
I have been on a shoot in Scotland for the past 8 days and had no internet access. Interesting to see how this thread has unfolded. Somehow Bob and a few others has painted me as specifically looking for an "$800 piece of crap".

Reading through some of the posts in this thread are actually quite funny. I got a kick out of how quickly the intent of this thread spun out of control. But unfortunately, the bottom line is, it really got out of control.

Bob... count to ten dude. I'm guessing that you have high blood pressure, make sure you take your meds.

Jeff... you defend Bob's aggressive attitude then tell me to lighten up?.... hmmm...

Anyway, I am not logging on to continue with the silly arguments, I am only logging on to address those of you who actually tried to help. Thank you for your help.

I am absolutely not trying to buy crap, I am trying to find answers to questions as fast as possible (because I have a lot of tight deadlines) by leveraging the experience of those who are farther down the road that I am on. If any of you truly think that I am doing something wrong by asking for help IN A FORUM, you need to ask yourself why you are in this forum to begin with.

As a matter of fact... why are ANY of us in this forum? It has been suggested that I should do a google search rather than ask questions in this forum... hmmm... Seems like a google search would lead me directly to this forum. But that is a conversation for another time.

As I said before, I find myself in a difficult situation, in a panic due to four projects that are stacked, and in need of quick help. No different than many or most of you that have posted in these forums.

Maybe Bob gets a free pass from those of you who are accustomed to him being an ass, but that doesn't mean it is okay for him to rant and make accusations toward those that are here to find some level of assistance.

I clearly stated in my second post that it appears to me that I might need to pony up the cash for a true HD monitor, and somehow that caused Bob to go ballistic. Since that point, it seems as if my original intent has taken off on a tangent, mislead by Bob.

Anyway, I seem to be heading into argumentative mode so I will stop myself.

Thanks again to those of you who shared your experiences, your help is greatly appreciated.



Talkingbox Digital Media Group, Inc.
http://www.talkingboxdmg.com
(203) 327-6617


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