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Best non loss video codec?

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Daniel Connell
Best non loss video codec?
on Sep 20, 2006 at 9:55:10 pm

What's the best codec for me to be using to store my DV footage? ie non loss but small file sizes.

ta

Daniel.


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Matte
Re: Best non loss video codec?
on Sep 20, 2006 at 10:15:33 pm

DV directly transfered.

DV tape sent over FW to a DV file on the computer = zero additional compression.

Its just a "numbers" file-transfer.


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Daniel Connell
Re: Best non loss video codec?
on Sep 20, 2006 at 10:37:04 pm

But if I edit and resave ad nauseum, it still won't lose anything?

Also, if there's something that gets the files a bit smaller than dv avi, I don't have a huge amount of disk space and I'm wanting to back up to data dvd.

cheers

Daniel.


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Matte
Re: Best non loss video codec?
on Sep 21, 2006 at 12:58:08 am

[Daniel Connell] "
But if I edit and resave ad nauseum, it still won't lose anything?"


Editing and "rendering" is another question entirely.
It depends on what edit software and what kind of layers and filters you apply as to how much you "degrade" your original footage (if at all.)

But your original question was about archiving footage.

DV is already 5-to-1 compression.

There's no point in archiving to a file that destroys the quality.

Just keep the TAPES... they are fine for archival purposes, small, full-quality and you can just load them back up and capture the footage again, if needed.

Heck, many places back-up to DAT cassettes... DV is nearly the same size as those and you don't need to do anything but put them on the shelf.



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Daniel Connell
Re: Best non loss video codec?
on Sep 21, 2006 at 1:04:41 am

What I'm doing is editing down the raw footage from the tapes to conserve space, saving those files to data dvds, then loading footage to my (slightly too small) harddrive, re-editing and compositing.

So I need a codec that can be saved to x number of times without losing any quality, but is still small enough that these files are going to be reasonably portable.

I'll be keeping the tapes as backup, but don't have constant access to a camera or deck to recapture from.

cheers

Daniel.


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tony salgado
Re: Best non loss video codec?
on Sep 21, 2006 at 1:59:43 am



Dude for the price of a external firewire drive you could cheaply buy yourself a 300 or 400 gb drive and keep your stuff on it for as long as you need.


Such drives can run anywhere from the a low 250 to 400 dollars depending on where and when you buy it.


The wasted time and effort to save to dvd is better spent on an external or internal drive.


Tony Salgado


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Daniel Connell
Re: Best non loss video codec?
on Sep 21, 2006 at 2:16:11 am

Which would be very nice, and is on my wishlist. The video has to be posted tho, hence the dvds.

Daniel.


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Vincent Becquiot
Re: Best non loss video codec?
on Sep 21, 2006 at 6:25:56 pm

Well, if you are using straight cuts with no effects or transitions, you can export back to DV tapes without usually losing quality. A DVD backup is probably the worst solution of all. Once a footage is compressed to DVD (By that I mean Mpg2), it really isn't suitable to editing or compositing again, and you will probably have a heck of a time even importing it back into your editing application. HD DVDs might solve that issue with SD video at least.

Vince


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glenn chan
Re: Best non loss video codec?
on Sep 21, 2006 at 6:32:44 pm

There are lossless codecs such as Quicktime Animation and Huffyuv.
There's also commercial codecs like Microcosm, although the smaller file size may not be that big a deal.

DVDs can hold either data or MPEG2 video. The problem with DVDs is that they can degrade very quickly, even getting data corruption in 2 years.


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Daniel Connell
Re: Best non loss video codec?
on Sep 21, 2006 at 10:26:17 pm

Well, looks like the best option is just keep them in dv format (going with the Sony one), and not rerender them until the final output. I'm not doing a huge amount of compositing (just putting 3d elements in and grading colours) so I should only have to render once.

I had a look at huffyuv and Microcosm but they're still 3-4 times the size of the orginal dv.

Thanks all for the excellent feedback.

Daniel.


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Best non loss video codec?
on Sep 22, 2006 at 2:19:17 am

One more thing to keep in mind: get used to large file sizes for archiving. I believe your original post said something like "no loss, but small file size".

Basically the terms "lossless" and "small file size" are mutally exclusive. If you really do want lossless, you'll have large files. If you can't abide large files, you're going to have to put up with lossy video.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV


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jimmybee500
Re: Best non loss video codec?
on Oct 4, 2006 at 10:06:09 pm

You could always WinRar your footage for archiving purposes?

BTW - What medium do people suggest for keeping footage/edit projects on? I tend to rar my files up and put onto DATA DVD and keep them in a opditracker, so they are easy to find and access. Other than back onto tape (not an option when keeping AFX & Video Toaster projects intact) or keeping on HDDs, what are my options for mid to long-term storage?

We may be getting an XRAID with hot-swappable drives in the near future, but until then I could do with a solution that ensures my data is safe.

Thanks.

*AE 5.5 Pro - *PS CS1 - *Combustion 3
-------------------------------------
Win XP Pro SP2 / Intel P4 3GHz / 2GB RAM / GeForce FX5200 / BMD DeckLink Pro / Sony BVM-20G1E / DVS SDI Clipstation


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glenn chan
Re: Best non loss video codec?
on Oct 4, 2006 at 10:38:57 pm

In my opinion, DVDs are sketchy since they can be easily damaged. And some optical media (especially the cheap stuff) can degrade in 2 years.

2- If you will shoot on a data-based camera like HVX, Red, SI, etc. etc. then it might make a lot of sense to get a computer-based tape-based backup like LTO.


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jimmybee500
Re: Best non loss video codec?
on Oct 5, 2006 at 8:35:08 am

Hi Glenn,

Thanks for that..so I can backup data onto an LTO (?) in the same way I'd burn to a DVD? Is that a bit like a DLT tape drive?

However, if I'm using top quality Verbatim DVD-R stock and storing it in a protective environment, shouldn't it keep for quite a while?

Just trying to weigh up options, but I guess money will be an issue upto a point if we're getting high-capacity HDD storage in the near future. I'll lok into LTO. Ta.

*AE 5.5 Pro - *PS CS1 - *Combustion 3
-------------------------------------
Win XP Pro SP2 / Intel P4 3GHz / 2GB RAM / GeForce FX5200 / BMD DeckLink Pro / Sony BVM-20G1E / DVS SDI Clipstation


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taburineagle
Re: Best non loss video codec?
on Oct 31, 2006 at 11:11:45 am

What I've been doing with my nature projects when I archive them is to compress everything to H.264 format - it's not *lossless*, but it does a somewhat good job of keeping much of the original quality IMHO... The way that I work, I usually have more than one camera angle as part of a feed to archive, and I like to keep "Day edit DVDs", in case I want to use a clip for later that I wouldn't have used as part of a normal day's features. I sync all of the angles together, compress all of them to H.264, seperate every video and audio track, and then take them back into QuickTime Pro and add them to a reference movie, one by one. Doing this, I have angles, sound tracks and graphic elements that I can just turn on or off when I want to see the other angle, etc., and the compression does a somewhat good job (MUCH better than MPEG2 DVDs, because if you're making a strictly DVD-Video disc, every angle you add reduces the quality of the others - not good for archival purposes) at keeping the original quality. Once I make a DVD-Data copy of the files (the raw video, audio and etc. files, as well as QuickTime reference movies to both a multiangle multiplex version which shows all of the angles playing at one time - which does NOT work when playing from the DVD, but works very well on the HDD, and a normal one-angle version), I copy the entire directory to a drive I have set up to hold raw feeds. That way, I have about 40-50 minutes of video and audio (usually about 2 15 minute video tracks and 2 sound files) fitting into the space of a DVD. That may be kind of overkill for what you're trying to do, but that's what I've been doing, and it works for me - if you have QuickTime Pro 7, just try taking a minute long clip and compressing it in H.264 - it may work, it may not, for what you're doing...


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claesbas
Re: Best non loss video codec?
on Feb 17, 2007 at 3:34:29 am

How come there are no good lossless codecs for video then?

For audio there is plenty, FLAC, Apple Lossless, Microsoft Lossless, TAK, Monkeys Audio and WavPack. All of these are quite the same with perhaps TAK being the latest of the pack with fastest decoding/encoding.

Is it cause the ratio of compression is to low for lossless video?

We got millions of lossy codecs though..

Claes Norin

SAE Institute
Stockholm, SWEDEN


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Dave LaRonde
Re: Best non loss video codec?
on Feb 19, 2007 at 3:53:17 pm

[claesbas] "How come there are no good lossless codecs for video then? "

The bandwidth (or bitrate) of video is MUCH higher than it is for audio. Let's do a little arithmetic:
An HD signal has a screen resolution of 1920x1080, and a frame rate of 25fps in PAL. Each pixel is defined by 24 bits.
Thus: 1920x1080x25x24=1,244,160,000 bits per second of totally uncompressed HD video.

On the other hand, studio-quality audio samples 96 bits 48,000 times per second.
Thus: 48,000x96=4,608,000 bits per second of totally uncompressed audio.

Have you noticed that the bandwidth for video is 270 times as wide as it is for audio?

On the topic of compression, an engineer once told me, "It's all a matter of how much information you want to throw away," and this is why it is so difficult to design, as you say, a good, lossless codec for video.

There are a few lossless video codecs, however. Apple's Animation codec set to best quality comes to mind, and it has been available for years.

Dave LaRonde
Sr. Promotion Producer
KCRG-TV


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PRgraphist
Re: Best non loss video codec?
on Oct 9, 2006 at 3:19:22 am

I bought a 300GB with a great external USB enclosure for 150


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