FORUMS: list search recent posts

I have $10,000! What should I do with it?

COW Forums : Broadcasting

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
Malcolm Man
I have $10,000! What should I do with it?
on Jun 21, 2006 at 4:02:05 pm

SO, I have $10,000 to spend on a new camera. Right now I have two Xl2's, but they just aren't working for me anymore. I've been doing alot of fx work (chroma key and such) and need a camera that can shoot in some high res formats. So, I've been doing my homework and the XL H1 is looking pretty tempting (XLR jacks, 1080i, 24p, etc.) Anyway, is you have any suggestions, feel free to post them. If you had ten grand, what camera would you be looking at? Plus, what lens would you think about purchasing to use in conjunction with the XL H1?

P.S. I'm looking to purchase within a month, or sooner. I want to buy before I start shooting this new project I'm working on.

Oh, and if you can think of any related threads, feel free to direct me. I'd be glad to read em. Once again, thank you.




Return to posts index

Ron Lindeboom
Re: I have $10,000! What should I do with it?
on Jun 21, 2006 at 4:14:03 pm


The real choices you have in that price range are:

The XL H1 as you have already pointed out and for good reasons.

The Panasonic HVX200 as it can shoot in multiple formats and when you need HD, it's there; if you need to transition off SD but still have some SD shoots, it can shoot in standard def, as well. There are discussions of it in our Panasonic P2 forum.

Those are the two that make the most sense to me.

Best regards,

Ron Lindeboom


Return to posts index

Malcolm Man
Re: I have $10,000! What should I do with it?
on Jun 21, 2006 at 4:22:36 pm

Hey, thanks for replying! I'll look into the Panasonic HVX200 and check the P2 forum.

Ron Lindeboom, man I here you all the time on the cretaivecow podcast. You're awesome! Thanks again.



Return to posts index


Doug
Re: I have $10,000! What should I do with it?
by
on Jun 21, 2006 at 8:42:00 pm

Check out the hdv forum as well.

Doug


Return to posts index

Malcolm Man
Re: I have $10,000! What should I do with it?
on Jun 22, 2006 at 12:50:36 am

Thanks, will do. I think I'm pretty set on the XL H1, but I'l check it out.


Return to posts index

tony salgado
Re: I have $10,000! What should I do with it?
on Jun 22, 2006 at 4:21:04 am



Are you interesting in buying a used dvcpro 50 camcorder?

16x9 and 4x3 aspect ratios, records in dvcpro and dvcpro 50 (which is ideal for chroma key work since it is 4:2:2)

If you are interested provide me your email address and I'll send additional info.



Tony Salgado


Return to posts index


Malcolm Man
Re: I have $10,000! What should I do with it?
on Jun 22, 2006 at 6:21:02 am

Well, I could be interested. I'm really drooling over the canon though. Go ahead and give me the info and I'll at least let you know.
malcsalot@yahoo.com

Thanks.



Return to posts index

Bill Marcellus
Re: I have $10,000! What should I do with it?
on Jun 24, 2006 at 12:05:23 pm

Get the Panasonic HVX-200 and forget about the Canon. HDV presents all kinds of problems when shooting and even worse when compositing- especially if you are doing VFX. The Panny has the DVCProHD codec- no GOP problems. You actually have discrete frames to composite and use in VFX work.

I have posted material from both cameras and the advantages that the Canon offers in lenses, etc. are greatly offset by the disadvantages of the HDV codec. As soon as you shoot anything with a large amount of motion in the frame and try to composite the footage you'll see what I mean.

Bill


Return to posts index

Malcolm Man
Re: I have $10,000! What should I do with it?
on Jun 26, 2006 at 5:06:24 am

hey Bill, thanks for the reply. Haven't checked this in awhile. I'll look into it. I don't know too much about camera codecs or the problems with HDV, so it looks as if I have a bit of research ahead of me.


Return to posts index


Malcolm Man
Re: I have $10,000! What should I do with it?
on Jun 26, 2006 at 5:16:37 am

Hey Bill, if you have any links to forums/articles detailing the pros VS cons of HDV shooting, or just things you might run across in the process; please post. I'd be very greatful.


Return to posts index

Bill Marcellus
Re: I have $10,000! What should I do with it?
on Jun 26, 2006 at 1:38:21 pm

Malcolm,

I don't have any specific links but a search here and on Google should return plenty of articles.

The main difficulty with the HDV codec is that it uses Long GOP MPEG-2 encoding. Long GOP MPEG-2 achieves smaller file sizes by creating GOPs that include different
types of frames that rely on each other to complete the image. For example, a Sony
HDV 1080i camera uses GOPs that are 15 frames long. The first frame of a GOP contains the only I-frame (complete picture). The rest of the GOP is made up of bidirectional (B) and predictive (P) frames. To see a B or P frame, the system must construct the image by reading multiple frames, starting with the first frame of the GOP. This means there is not a discrete, individual frame recorded but rather a group of frames with the codec predicting changes in the image from frame to frame. This becomes problematic when there is motion in the frame, i.e. a person running, a car speeding by, etc. The codec must predict the motion and build an intermediate frame within the codec.

This can lead to "mosquito noise" within the image...much like the noise you see in a poorly encoded MPEG image with motion in the frame. It can also show up as noise in the blacks of an image. Additionally, it can lead to problems in editing and compositing because there are no individual frames to begin with. "Frame accurate" editing has to be artificially created within the editing software.

Additionally, DVCPRO HD is a 4:2:2 signal, which means it retains half the color samples that the CCDs capture. HDV is a 4:2:0 signal, retaining only a quarter of the original color samples, as does DV. The lesser amount of color information leads to the all too familiar "jagglies" when compositing, especially when chromakeying.

The DVCPROHD codec utilized in the Panasonic HVX-200 records a discrete frame for each frame of the material being shot. This means that there are 24 individual frames recorded when shooting in 24p mode. The 4:2:2 color space afforded by DVCPROHD also provides a superior image.

Hope this helps.

Bill




Return to posts index

Malcolm Man
Re: I have $10,000! What should I do with it?
on Jun 27, 2006 at 1:03:29 am

Hey thanks bill.

Yeah, that did help. I get what you're saying. I had read that before. Thanks again.


Return to posts index


Malcolm Man
Re: I have $10,000! What should I do with it?
on Jun 27, 2006 at 4:05:56 am

Okay, so why does it say,

"Uncompressed 1080/60i 4:2:2 HD-SDI output at 1.485 Gbps"

So even though it says "uncompressed" when you capture it, the footage is being processed through a long GOP codec and then frame accurate frame editing is generated within the program? Sorry for the run-on sentence and my ignorance on the technical aspects of various frame rates. I am researching all this, believe me.


Return to posts index

Malcolm Man
Re: I have $10,000! What should I do with it?
on Jun 27, 2006 at 4:43:20 am

Oh, and the XLH1 appears to record with a 4:2:2 compression as well as the Panasonic HVX-200. So is there a difference there? In addition to this, the XLh1 also has interchangeable lenses. So, in light of all that; would you still go with the Panasonic?

"The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources." --Albert Einstein



Return to posts index

Jan Crittenden Livingston
Re: I have $10,000! What should I do with it?
on Jun 27, 2006 at 10:08:30 am

Hi,

The Canon camera records HDV and thus the recording is 4:2:0 in a long GOP stucture. The only place on the camera where you will see an uncompressed output is at the HD-SDI. This signal does not go to tape, it is an output for say monitoring or sending to an external recording device.

The only small HD camera that can record a full 4:2:2 signal with independent frames is the HVX200 from Panasonic.

Hope this helps,

Jan

Jan Crittenden Livingston
Product Manager, DVCPRO, DVCPRO50, AG-DVX100
Panasonic Broadcast & TV Systems



Return to posts index


Bill Marcellus
Re: I have $10,000! What should I do with it?
on Jun 27, 2006 at 12:22:12 pm

Malcolm,

Like Jan said, the Canon records in the HDV format which has 4:2:0 colorspace. Period. The 4:2:2 output is ONLY through the SDI connection and is not recorded to tape.

Additionally, HDV is a "prosumer" format, DVCPROHD is a professional format. If your intent is to create programming for broadcast you may find it difficult to sell HDV material to the networks. You will also have much better results in compositing and VFX with the Panny.

It seems you really like the Canon based on your experience with the XL. I understand. I purchased one of the first XL-1s in my area and loved it in 1997. That is, until the DVX-100 came out...that was the end of the XL-1 for me.

Again, I would emphasize that you should shoot some test footage with both cameras, play with them in post and determine which one you think provides the best image.

Bill


Return to posts index

Malcolm Man
Re: I have $10,000! What should I do with it?
on Jun 27, 2006 at 2:43:14 pm

Bill and Jan, thank you very much. I get it now. Although I do like some features of the XL H1, the picture is ultimately the most important factor. So, I guess I'll be taking a closer look at Pany HVX200. I'll try to get my hands on both of these cameras and play around with them. Once again, thank you very much for your consistent replies.


Return to posts index

<< PREVIOUS   •   VIEW ALL   •   PRINT   •   NEXT >>
© 2017 CreativeCOW.net All Rights Reserved
[TOP]