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You Tube...Please View Video

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Jeffrey Gould
You Tube...Please View Video
on May 29, 2009 at 3:59:24 pm

Hi, I'm including a link to view my first You Tube video for a client shot in HDV. If you click on the HD, you can see the HD version. For some reason both versions seem jerky, like they are not playing back at 29.97 fps. I'm OK with image quality, but not the playback. Here are my settings in Sorenson 5:

2 Pass VBR
1920x1080
Frame Rate 1:1
Key Frame every 300 frames and auto key frame on scene change is set in the middle at 50

Also, I usually deinterlace in Premiere Pro, this time I didn't...I let S5 do it.






sorry, I tried to embed a link, but it didn't show up.

Thanks for any comments or suggestions to make the video more smooth.

Jeffrey S. Gould
Action Media Productions


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Craig Seeman
Re: You Tube...Please View Video
on May 29, 2009 at 4:08:04 pm

Looks like lots of dropped frames.
Try downloading it to see how they encoded it. It may well be a YouTube playback issue rather than a bad encode.
I'd upload 720p, not 1080. I would not trust YouTube's scaling.



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Jeffrey Gould
Re: You Tube...Please View Video
on May 29, 2009 at 4:17:22 pm

Thanks Craig, how do you download from you tube?

This was shot in Sony HDV 60I. I can try to make the size 1280 x 720 if you think that will help. Are my keyframe settings OK? Right now the HD version is only playing back digital garbage, no image at all.

Jeffrey S. Gould
Action Media Productions


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Craig Seeman
Re: You Tube...Please View Video
on May 29, 2009 at 4:28:12 pm

[Jeffrey Gould] "I can try to make the size 1280 x 720 if you think that will help."
I don't think the scaling is the cause of the dropped frames though. I don't trust "bulk encode" parameters as used by online sites such as YouTube though.

That's why I recommend downloading their encode (there are many ways to do this) and seeing how it plays back. If that plays back clean it is likely a server side issue on their end.

I don't think your key frames settings are at issue either. They're reasonable.




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Jeffrey Gould
Re: You Tube...Please View Video
on May 29, 2009 at 4:36:09 pm

I just read on another site that you should use 1280*720 as well due to scaling issues. Right now it says "trying to reach server" so maybe they are having issues. Would a deinterlace issue cause dropped frames? I just watched the mp4 that S5 generated and it exhibits the same jerkiness, so you tube is not the problem. I think it might even be my source file from PPRO. I'll experiment. Thank you Craig.

Jeffrey S. Gould
Action Media Productions


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Craig Seeman
Re: You Tube...Please View Video
on May 29, 2009 at 4:55:15 pm

I downloaded the YouTube encode and had a look at it. The data rate was higher than I expected, over 3000kbps, but that shouldn't, in and of itself, be the problem if one has very fast speeds as I do.
Jogging through frame by frame I see that it looks as if there's some strange frame order flipping. On moving shots (pans, zooms, tracking, dolly shots etc) it's as if an earlier frame is periodically being accessed.

Make sure you're using Squeeze 5.1 as MainConcept and Sorenson fixed some serious issues with their H.264 encoder.

Make sure the jerkiness you're seeing on your S5 encode isn't just a playback issue on your side. Playing back a high data rate H.264 at 1080p can tax some computers.

Do a 720p encode at about 5000kbps and see how that plays back. And again, update to S5.1 ASAP and do the encode with that.

Given how long it took me to download the encode (much longer than it should have IMHO) Youtube may also be having server side issues . . . but do the above and make sure there's no issue with your encode first.



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Jeffrey Gould
Re: You Tube...Please View Video
on May 29, 2009 at 5:00:53 pm

You're such a good guy to help me and others out like this. I'm using the latest update to S5. I just exported a small section from Premiere PRo,I should add that I use a Matrox RTX2 card as well. This time, I chose No Fields, so I'm hoping that was the issue. Agreed, the computer could've had a hard time keeping up, which is why I saw stuttering. I'm encoding the small section in S5 now at 1280x720, 10 minutes to go. I'll upload to you tube and let you know/see the results. What's strange is that even though PPRO exports as 1440*1080, in S5, it opens up as 1920*1080. Thank you again, don't know what I'd do without you.

Jeffrey S. Gould
Action Media Productions


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Jeffrey Gould
Re: You Tube...Please View Video
on May 29, 2009 at 8:08:22 pm

Craig, this new test seems even worse. I did this at 4000kbs, not 5000, but still...that's more than the first test at 3000. I had deinterlace turned on from PPRO. I have to upload this tomorrow for client and not sure what else to try. I have a really fast connection, so that's not it. Here is the link:





thanks

Jeffrey S. Gould
Action Media Productions


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Stephen Fitzstephens
Re: You Tube...Please View Video
on May 29, 2009 at 8:19:38 pm

i just subscribed to your youtube.


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Craig Seeman
Re: You Tube...Please View Video
on May 29, 2009 at 8:37:19 pm

[Jeffrey Gould] "this new test seems even worse."
In what way?
Do you see dropped frames on your system?
FIRST what does your SOURCE file look like on YOUR system?




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Jeffrey Gould
Re: You Tube...Please View Video
on May 29, 2009 at 8:43:46 pm

If I import the Matrox AVI I made back into PPRO, I do see some stuttering on the horizontal moving shots. the vertical moving shots and zooms on the digital pics seem to be OK. I wonder if the Matrox AVI is the problem and I should export an umcompressed AVI to S5. As an aside, it seems that you tube is having a hard time playing back the HD version.

I'm exporting an uncompressed AVI now and will post youtube link when ready. The uncompressed AVI is 4gb for 35 seconds, compared to the matrox one which was 483mb for 45 seconds.

Jeffrey S. Gould
Action Media Productions


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Craig Seeman
Re: You Tube...Please View Video
on May 29, 2009 at 9:17:06 pm

[Jeffrey Gould] "If I import the Matrox AVI I made back into PPRO, I do see some stuttering on the horizontal moving shots"

I'm beginning to think the issue may be on your encodes and/or source.

[Jeffrey Gould] "The uncompressed AVI is 4gb for 35 seconds, compared to the matrox one which was 483mb for 45 seconds. "
And you're having problems with the Matrox one which clearly has the lower bit rate. Is this Matrox H.264 codec?

Edit in your original camera source codec. Export from Premiere in that timeline codec. Use THAT file for your compression.

If you source is HDV, edit HDV (Premiere should handle it) and export with no further compression (HDV AVI?) and use that in Squeeze 5.1 to do compression.




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Jeffrey Gould
Re: You Tube...Please View Video
on May 29, 2009 at 9:27:44 pm

Under export movie, the choices are Matrox AVI, QT, Mircosoft AVI and uncompressed. Source is HDV, I'm editing in HDV timeline, but for export, the only choices are the ones above. I think the Matrox is MPEG2 I Frame codec. Is it normal that my MP4 is only 20mb for 35 seconds? that is encoded at 5000kbs. Video is uploaded to you tube, but being processed. I'll provide link when it's up.

Heres the link: its getting worse: but it says still processing






Jeffrey S. Gould
Action Media Productions


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Jeffrey Gould
Re: You Tube...Please View Video
on May 29, 2009 at 10:03:29 pm





video quality looks better, but still jerky. The HD looks much better. The scenes which are jerky, are all in slow motion...does that affect it? My pans were too fast, so I had to slow them down. 2nd time using the camera. I think this is as good as were gonna get it. I think the fountain shot looks good, so it can't be You Tube or S5.

I do see a little artifacting in the source AVI, so maybe it's just symptoms of HDV? Also see a little banding in the blue sky.

Jeffrey S. Gould
Action Media Productions


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Chris Blair
Re: You Tube...Please View Video
on May 30, 2009 at 1:36:41 am

For YouTube, I think your video looks pretty good. We see the jerkiness when viewing stuff we put on YouTube all the time. I think it's a combination of issues and we particularly see it in video that has a lot of camera movement. Videos that don't have it usually look pretty good if your upload source is of high quality and in SD or HD sizes.

By the way, our original encodes do not stutter...they only do it after YouTube has encoded them. It almost looks like they change the framerate, but we've never downloaded one of their encodes to check. We tested and experimented for a month (during downtime) trying to find just the right combination of settings to prepare a file then upload it to get the best quality from YouTube.

We eventually decided there's a point of diminishing returns on YouTube. You upload the absolute highest quality file you can (in HD if possible), then hope for the best. Our stuff looks good in HD, but in their normal modes, it looks like dog crap. But everything we give them that has fast jib moves or medium speed dolly moves always stutters slightly.

Chris Blair
Magnetic Image, Inc.
Evansville, IN
http://www.videomi.com


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Rich Rubasch
Re: You Tube...Please View Video
on May 30, 2009 at 2:31:50 am

IMO HD video on YouTube is ahead of its time. Our experience is that there is a sweet spot for uploading spots to YouTube before it hits their compressors. If you hit them right, it does a pretty good job with the encode. I am glad the HQ mode is up and it is a great improvement along with going native 16:9.

But the HD has really limited potential at least right now. We have 2 G5 dual 2.7 Macs, an 8 core Intel Mac and a quat core Intel Mac. We have 10 meg download Charter cable service. Only the 8 core Intel can really play back the HD material with any degree of satisfaction.

I wish they would have stuck with the HQ in 16:9 for a while to let everyone catch up (while a bunch more fiber optic cable was laid) and then roll out the HD for 2010.

Sure we'd love to show our work in HD to the world, and our clients, but I don't think anyone wants to deliver studdery HD samples to their clients, and that's just what many connections will allow.

Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media



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Jeffrey Gould
Re: You Tube...Please View Video
on May 30, 2009 at 3:20:17 am

Thank you Chris, your post made me feel better. Yes, I usually do a lot of jib moves as well, but this guy didn't want to pay for an assistant. This is my first hand held camera in over 20 years of shooting and although I have a shoulder mount, it's still not the same. I'm hoping that the general public doesn't see the flaws that we all do. Thanks again for taking the time to view and reply.

Jeffrey S. Gould
Action Media Productions


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Jeffrey Gould
Re: You Tube...Please View Video
on May 30, 2009 at 3:44:30 pm

Here is the final that the client is getting...I'm only making one change before I upload to his account; there is one pan shot from the water view to the house, that is actually reversed footage, so I took the reverse off as it played more smooth. I'm still generally not happy with the jerkiness of the whole video. Hopefully the client will be. Thanks everyone for your help. Here is the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N3035Wp9Uus

Jeffrey S. Gould
Action Media Productions


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Jeffrey Gould
Re: Craig, Could I send you a H.264 Sample?
on May 30, 2009 at 11:35:18 pm

So that you can see what the H.264 looks like? I can understand the jerkiness on the HDV shots, but not the slow pans/zooms on the digital pics. I sent it to a friend who is not video savvy at all and she noticed it right away. If you're willing to look at sample, I could email it to you using http://www.yousendit.com I know it's asking a lot...let me know either way. Thanks, Jeff

Jeffrey S. Gould
Action Media Productions


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Jeffrey Gould
Re: Craig, Could I send you a H.264 Sample?
on May 31, 2009 at 12:50:45 am

I posted on Vimeo and got the same result. One seemingly knowledgeable guy said to use keyframes every 30 instead the 300 I had, would that affect the playback? It almost has a strobe effect. I hate to be annoying about this, but it's really bugging me that non professionals can get better results than I can, not to mention that this a paying job.

Vimeo http://vimeo.com/4920626

Jeffrey S. Gould
Action Media Productions


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Rich Rubasch
Re: Craig, Could I send you a H.264 Sample?
on Jun 1, 2009 at 1:45:42 am

By any chance are you using VBR or CBR for the encode? We have found that in almost all cases if you can find the right CBR it almost always streams better in the end.

Curious,

Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media



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Jeffrey Gould
Re: Craig, Could I send you a H.264 Sample?
on Jun 1, 2009 at 1:55:11 am

Hi Rich, I use VBR set at 8 2 passes. I sent the H.264's to a guy wrote a great article on HD for You Tube, I think his site is http://www.webvideotechniques.com His name is JP...great guy. He thought my source files were fine, but for some reason you tube was interpreting them the way you see. I did upload another clip from a different project and it looks great. Here is the link:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qy7dv0fwjZA


Jeffrey S. Gould
Action Media Productions


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