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My Head Hurts...

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Mick Haensler
My Head Hurts...
on Jul 30, 2008 at 9:17:47 pm

After extensive testing and hours of forum and web searches, I still haven't been able to upload what I consider to be a good looking clip to Vimeo. I know it can be done because I've seen some fine stuff. I've got a major web site upgrade in the works right now and I need to know how to do this. My test clip is DV16x9, 8 minutes long. So far I've gotten so so results using a combo of FCP and Compressor. I've tried every setting I know and still don't have what I'm looking for. any help would be GREATLY appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Mick Haensler
Higher Ground Media



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Daniel Low
Re: My Head Hurts...
on Jul 31, 2008 at 9:39:15 am

Mick,

It would really help us if you detailed EXACTLY what settings & workflow produced the best results so far, at least then we'll have a starting block to work from to improve things.




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Please post back saying what solved your problem. It could help others, and saying 'thanks' is free!


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Mick Haensler
Re: My Head Hurts...
on Jul 31, 2008 at 1:49:03 pm

Sure Daniel

- Export movie as QT mov file using current settings
- Take that file into Compressor
- Choose QT7 compatible H.264 800Kbps Streaming setting
- In Geometry tab, change frame size to 16:9 custom (320x180)
In Settings

- Frame Rate is current
- Key Frames automatic
- Data rate is automatic
- Encoding is High Quality multi pass

- Streaming is hinted streaming
- No padding
- Pixel depth 24
- Spatial quality 50
- Min. Spatial quality 50
- Key frame interval 150
- Temporal quality 50
- Min. temporal quality 50
- Average and Max data rate 0.688
- Hinted for QT streaming server

If there is anything I've missed let me know. TIA

Mick Haensler
Higher Ground Media



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Daniel Low
Re: My Head Hurts...
on Jul 31, 2008 at 2:20:05 pm

I'm not sure why you are choosing a streaming setting but try these:

Export as you have already done:

In compressor:

Choose H.264 download
Current frame rate
framesize 640x360
Keyframes - some say every 30 (or 25 for PAL) some say every 150 while others say 10x your source frame rate....so for NTSC that would be every 300. - Experiment..
Datarate 1800Kb/sec
Deinterlace using compressors frame control settings not the deinterlace filter. If you choose one of the complicated settings like Motion Adaptive, be prepared to wait a while.
Audio AAC
Sample rate 44.1
Datarate 128Kb/s


Let us know how you get on..




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Please post back saying what solved your problem. It could help others, and saying 'thanks' is free!


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Craig Seeman
Re: My Head Hurts...
on Jul 31, 2008 at 2:46:58 pm

Vimeo's own specs page suggest a key frame every 30 frames. That's very frequent but if that's the conclusion they've come to, it's worth trying that. Since they're re-compressing your upload to On2VP6 Flash they may have a reason for suggesting that.



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Mick Haensler
Re: My Head Hurts...
on Jul 31, 2008 at 4:33:54 pm

Thanks a boatload guys. I'm trying not to have to go to a third party piece of software to get "the best look in the world"(SNL short film reference). I'm away from the studio for a few days but will try all of the above and let you know what happened. I can't thank you enough.

THE COW ROCKS!!!

Mick Haensler
Higher Ground Media



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Rich Rubasch
Re: My Head Hurts...
on Aug 2, 2008 at 3:14:00 am

Whew! 1800 kbps seems way high to me. I don't know what frame size Vimeo streams, but knowing that is key. 360 x 180 seems small but 640 x 360 seems too large for a decent looking clip in a pretty fast download.

I almost always recommend changing the frame rate to 15 fps. This basically doubles your bitrate because you have half the frames to encode. Also, since it's streaming, I almost always encode to mono. This way I can use a 64 kbps rate which is the 128 kbps stereo equivalent, again halving the datarate.

Now your images looks good and it sounds good AND it streams fast.

Win win.

Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media



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Craig Seeman
Re: My Head Hurts...
on Aug 2, 2008 at 6:50:57 am

Vimeo recommends 1800kbps for 640x480 video
see
http://www.vimeo.com/help/compression
and 5000kbps for 1280x720
Vimeo's full screen unscaled video looks very good. They're recompressing to On2VP6 so giving them more bits is a good thing given the additional round of compression.

I'd almost never recommend 15fps unless one must use it due to some logistical reason and the source is very low motion (talking head interview). To me 15fps looks horrible. In addition at15fps the quality improvement per frame is not as great as you'd think (except in very low motion). The result is that there is greater temporal change between frames and the more movement between frames the greater the change. That's going to make it "harder" on the codec.



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Rich Rubasch
Re: My Head Hurts...
on Aug 4, 2008 at 2:17:51 am

Take a look at our site at http://www.tiltmedia.com in the portfolio section. For me the most important thing is that a potential client won't have to wait for a clip to play. We did a lot of experimenting, and we decided that the tradeoff between loadability and smooth playability (no starting and stopping, which FLV is prone to do on a 512 DSL connection) was worth it.

Tell me if any of these clips don't give you an EXACT idea of what we do at Tilt Media. That's the point. Want to see full rez, high quality full motion and audio? Well, by that time I know you are interested and I can send you a DVD or set up a meeting.

So, as part of my duties on the compression forum, I suggested that 15fps provides these benefits.

I do agree that if you are delivering a clip that will be recompressed, then by all means, full frame rate and a higher bitrate.

Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media



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Craig Seeman
Re: My Head Hurts...
on Aug 4, 2008 at 3:56:12 am

[Rich Rubasch] "(no starting and stopping, which FLV is prone to do on a 512 DSL connection) was worth it. "

Hmm, maybe my perception is colored by my market. In my neck of the woods bottom rung DSL is 768 and I don't even think small businesses purchase speeds that low. More typical DSL in my area is 1500, 3000, 7000. Cable modem in my area ranges from 5000 to 30,000 (I have the later).

15fps doesn't bother me for the graphics but when I start seeing humans moving at that rate it's just odd to me. The frame sizes are small to. I don't mean this to be critical because you're doing what you must if your target is 512 DSL.

Vimeo is using somewhere around 1400 for their 720p24 delivery.



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Daniel Low
Re: My Head Hurts...
on Aug 4, 2008 at 7:55:46 am

Reducing the frame rate was something I used to do back in the days of dial-up. I've not needed to do it or advised anyone to do it for years (even for 3G streaming delivery to cell phones 5 years ago).
Halving the frame rate typically reduces the datarate by only 30%, if that, and as Craig pointed out, halving the frame rate gives the codec a much harder job to do in the temporal domain and I've found usually has a pretty big hit on quality quality. With FLV I find making sure that the frame size is DIV 16 on both axis to be most important, something most people/services seem to forget.


__________________________________________________________________
Please post back saying what solved your problem. It could help others, and saying 'thanks' is free!


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Rich Rubasch
Re: My Head Hurts...
on Aug 5, 2008 at 3:36:27 am

Disagree again gentlemen. I spoke with two clients today who both view production company clips on their home connection. And if you have 768 DSL but you are at the fringe distance from the box, you are sometimes lucky to get 384 performance. Concerning Flash Video, I still find it quite annoying when it starts up, stutters a bit, then jumps forward, continues a bit, stutters some more and on and on.

My clients have consistently commented on how fast our site loads and how effortless our clips play.

Are you willing to wait more than even 30 seconds to see a clip? Doesn't everyone crave instant on? Smooth playback without stutter? Perhaps we are just a bit arrogant to think that our clips are so fantastic that clients will wait and wait for them to load...all 30 frames because each one is so important. Stereo audio, because you know, they might have their headphones on and I want them to capture all that left right audio keyframing I worked on.

I'm simply arguing for the fast, smooth, no stutter playback.

At home or at work.

Two ways to get there? 15fps and mono audio, which is my suggestion and I'm sticking to it.

Rich Rubasch
Tilt Media



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Craig Seeman
Re: My Head Hurts...
on Aug 5, 2008 at 4:27:15 am

Again my regional bias (but it's my market) I don't know any business or professional that has 768kbps in my area. 3000kbps is $29.95 a month here (That's for DSL, Cable Modem speeds are much higher at that price 10,000-15,000kbps). I get 30,000kbps for $49.95. I haven't seen that stutter start from anywhere in my neck of the woods.



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Stephen Schott
Re: My Head Hurts...
on Aug 8, 2008 at 9:42:56 pm

Well, you both have shown me to know your area and your clients. Believe it or not, I've got clients that don't have high speed anything! They aren't on dial-up, but close... they're on satellite which I believe is 512. Your neck of the woods, my neck of the woods, Who do you want to see the video...

Stephen

When you've got family, everything else is extra.


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jimena aznar
Re: My Head Hurts...
on Oct 13, 2010 at 6:55:51 pm

i know this posts are 2 yrs old, but in case someone is still reading it...

i am now even more confused! haha
i am doing a flash website where the transitions need to be flv's so the music will be in sync at any connection speed (on MY neck of the woods good internet connections are very new, so i have to think of people with very low ones). this videos are 3 secs long each, and this is everything i've tryed:

• i am preloading the videos into the users cache when they land on the page.

• the videos are beeing netstreamed in actionscript.

• unfortunately my videos have to be pretty big in size (920x660, i know it's a weird size but it's required).

• they where swf that i converted into quicktime and then into flv. the frame rate is always the same (30fps) (but have tried frame rate at 15 and no luck).

• when converting into flv's always use On2 VP6.

and after 2 weeks of trying, searching, testing, creating a zillion different flv's i still can't understand how websites like the movie's watchmen or inception work!!!
how do they manage to have such big videos in such high quality?
or is the fact that mi videos are too short in time and really fast movements have to do with anything?
or is there a way i don't know about for compressing flv's in very high quality?

please, i really need some help!!!

i have already posted this in the forums of flash and after effects and no luck, thought i would try here.

any reply would be highly appreciated :)


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Craig Seeman
Re: My Head Hurts...
on Oct 13, 2010 at 11:34:39 pm

Large frame size, good quality = high data rate.
Encode already encoded source file to another codec = loss of quality. Encode that encoded file yet again to another codec = major serious loss of quality.



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jimena aznar
Re: My Head Hurts...
on Oct 13, 2010 at 11:46:54 pm

thanx so much for your reply.
so, say, if i have an swf with the animation i need to convert into flv, what would be the best way to go from there?

thanks!!!


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